<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MonkeyBoy:
You sure? Because I heard that the code for JO is kinda weak...</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So the code for Quake3 is kinda weak?
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I'm a pretty experienced JK modder, and I feel I will have a great desire to mod for JO as well, so recently I have been looking into the ICARUS scripting system of Elite Force, knowing that JK2 will feature ICARUS2. I must say that on the whole I was very disappointed.

While ICARUS does include several nifty features that were sorely lacked in JK, like #includes and camera functions, the ammount of control over the game through scripts is minimal. Scripts can be used only as event handlers within levels - primarily playing cutscenes or modifying NPC actions. Weapons, items and user input, on the other hand, were not handled by the scripts and hence were unmodifiable. The result is that there is very little one can do as far as mods are concerned - the only way to change anything is to add a script to a level. COGScript, on the other hand, was very versatile, and included libraries for controlling all weapon, item, Force power, NPC, player, architecture, cutscene, and even game mode aspects of the game. COG wins hands down on this one.

On to syntax and format. ICARUS has very primitive syntax: few operators (functions are used instead - even for declaring variables!), no end of line operator, rem-style comments, and other stuff I can't remember. These really impair script readability, even though they are not all that important. COG, on the other, sported C-style syntax, complete with // comments. Much easier to read. Score another one for COG.

Now to the real limitations of ICARUS. I'll start with format issues: no function declaration. No 'for' or 'while' loops. No array support. No switch statements. And general issues: No way to directly control entities other than the one running the script. No way to pass parameters from script to script, and very primitive methods of communicating between scripts. No control over weapons, items, etc. (already mentioned). No control over menus and HUDs. No control over user input and player actions. I can go on and on.

To conclude, the ICARUS script system might have been all the developers needed to make Elite Force, but it leaves no room for modifications, modifications that can greatly increase a game's replayability. As an experienced cogger, I can definately say that it is far from enough to make even one playable weapon pack. COG script could've been better, had it included more control over menus HUDs and game physics, but it is definately a much more efficient scripting language than ICARUS. All I can do is hope that ICARUS2 will resemble COG a lot more, and leave an opportunity for people like myself to contribute to the community.
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I for one will be a little disappointed that Raven is likely *not* to release an SDK for SP. One of the greatest things about the JK modding community was the huge amount of add-ons you could get. Half-life and Quake 2 also didn't suffer from having a single player SDK released. (For that matter, nor did Deus Ex although the sheer complexity and planning needed to make a decent DX single player level, let alone mod, was, IMO, the reason it never took off.)

If Raven don't release an SDK for single player then that will mean the following:

* No new weapons (no Blastech pistol, double bladed lightsaber, carbonite gun or anything else)
* No new Force Powers (well actually, that all depends on ICARUS2, but I'm being pessimistic here!)
* No gameplay changes (so no drivable AT-ST <plug>like the one I'm building in Q3:TA </ plug> )
* No new enemies with custom AI unless they're based on existing enemies
* No new entities of any sort.

It won't stop me playing it and it won't stop me attempting to make levels for it. But I think mod making for JO SP will go the way of EF and DX mod making. And as I don't have a good connection to the net, I don't play MP and have little interest in making mods for it.

Anyone (with more time on their hands than me) fancy starting a petition to Raven? You can put my name down for a start!

Dragon

(P.S. I really hope I'm wrong, but I ain't getting my hopes up!)
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ICARUS was never meant to be a QuakeC/COG type language, we decided to let the programmers program the weapons and AI and make ICARUS the tool for just scripting special case behaviors and events the AI and world objects shouldn't be hardwired to do. So, no, it's not nearly as powerful as the pseudo-C style COG and QuakeC.

So you can make new maps with all new scripted events, cinematics, storylines, effects, puzzles, etc and sounds and graphics and models, etc, etc, but you are probably not going to be making all new weapon functionality (though you can change the graphics and sounds), new AI routines (though you can do a lot with scripting) or changing how physics work or the HUD or things like that. However, you can, by both scripting with ICARUS and modifying a lot of the external data files, make an impressive amount of changes to the game, it's just not as straightforward (but confusing to non-programmers) as QuakeC/COG...

However, MP is a different story, as it doesn't use ICARUS, it uses Id's VM's and the code will (I'm presuming) be released for that and that is in C and you can do quite a bit with that.
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This is extremely disappointing news - singleplayer modding is essentially useless. I realize the multiplayer co-op workaround will work, but it's still disheartening to learn that moving to a much more advanced engine gives even *more* limits.. after 4.5 years we were hoping for unlimited possibilities, but I guess that's too much too ask.

I realize that developing ICARUS2 into a "lean, mean scripting machine" would add time onto a short (but effective) dev. cycle, but I still wish it had happened. It's worth being patient for one more month to enjoy the benefits for the next several years. For now, I'm torn on the decision to edit JK2. With Unreal2 approaching, people will slam even the best of JO mods for their graphics, ignoring things like gameplay (omg!!!11) and implementation. It *always* happens... and besides, UnrealScript 2.0 looks pretty flexible. We'll see what the future brings.
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