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Thread: Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!

  1. #12041
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    I feel like you say stuff like this more because you want to believe in conservatives, rather than really believing the thought. That legitimating their views will make the world seem okay to you, or something.
    cool armchair psychologizing, bro

  2. #12042
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    Since this apparently wasn’t obvious enough to you, I’ll make it so.

    Of course conservatives have a point. They almost always do, and a lot of the time I’d even go along with what they’re saying. The problem is what they believe and what they do isn’t the same thing as the point they’re making.

    Do they have a point about universities indoctrinating their students into American “liberalism”? Sure. But they don’t care about the fact that universities are intolerant to other ideas, they specifically care about their own (I.e. universities should indoctrinate students into being ****heads instead).

    Do they have a point about the racialization of finance in 19th century Europe? Ya sure did, but they didn’t actually care about that, they only cared about busting heads and raping Belgian nuns.

    “Do conservatives have a point” is the closest thing you can get to a universal non sequitur.
    The thing is that I was pretty confident when I wrote my original post that addressing this "do conservatives have a point” what quickly going to become the focus of the entire proceeding discussion.

    Oh well.

  3. #12043
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    gigo

  4. #12044
    Gesundheit!

  5. #12045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    The thing is that I was pretty confident when I wrote my original post that addressing this "do conservatives have a point” what quickly going to become the focus of the entire proceeding discussion.

    Oh well.
    Well if you wanted to discuss the actual report why did you frame it in such a polarizing way?

  6. #12046
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    Well if you wanted to discuss the actual report why did you frame it in such a polarizing way?
    Posing a speculative question like “what if conservatives actually have a point” is polarizing? Huh. Who knew?

  7. #12047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Posing a speculative question like “what if conservatives actually have a point” is polarizing? Huh. Who knew?
    No, the way you phrased the question was polarizing. If you wanted to ask the question earnestly and effectively you could have easily done that. Don’t whine because you got the response you were asking for.

  8. #12048
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    If you want to talk about why educated whites tend to see problems that persecuted minorities don’t (independent of education??) - not that you do, but suppose you did - then I think AOC put it best.

    Just the ability to recognize a problem and cultivate an ideology around solving it has privilege as a prerequisite. You need to read a lot of books to understand the depth of historical persecution, and a lot more books to understand how those effects of persecution cascade through time, and even more books to begin to guess what we should do about it. You can expect a disadvantaged person to understand their own personal experiences in a way that you never will. You can’t expect them to fully understand why and how they are persecuted.

    The assumption you’re making is that educated whites are wrong for seeing a problem that uneducated blacks can’t. Well, poor white Americans don’t seem to understand that all of their problems are caused by capitalism, and we’re okay saying that. It is really surprising if poor black people believe in bootstraps too?

  9. #12049
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    Oh look, it’s time for another exciting episode of Adventures in Statistics with Jon!

    Speaking of reductio ad Hitlerum, did you know that in the 1940s the Nazi Party was more popular among Jewish people than socialists? That’s because there were zero socialists in the Nazi party, but there were one or two Jewish people. That means the Jewish average approval rating is slightly higher than the socialist average.

    So, I guess the lesson here is to be really careful how you interpret means. Some black people vote Republican. Obviously that means the black average is going to be well to the right of liberal whites.

  10. #12050
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    thing is, it's much easier to argue about what you think conservatives think than to advance your own views on things. it's hard to even have a view on something, but to defend it is not easy at all.

    in fact, what i mention above is a big issue with politics: many people just spend time trying to argue about what they think everybody else believes. and it's really weird.

    eversor will probably think "ha! you do this to conservatives", because nobody has been paying attention to our discussion on conservatism
    Last edited by Reid; 10-19-2018 at 06:36 PM.

  11. #12051
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    FWIW, I don't get this "university culture" thing. People hardly ever talk politics in either academic department I've been in. Maybe it's a math thing, IDK. Most everyone is liberal, but it's not like we don't have conservatives who we get along with fine.

  12. #12052
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    Oh look, it’s time for another exciting episode of Adventures in Statistics with Jon!

    Speaking of reductio ad Hitlerum, did you know that in the 1940s the Nazi Party was more popular among Jewish people than socialists? That’s because there were zero socialists in the Nazi party, but there were one or two Jewish people. That means the Jewish average approval rating is slightly higher than the socialist average.

    So, I guess the lesson here is to be really careful how you interpret means. Some black people vote Republican. Obviously that means the black average is going to be well to the right of liberal whites.
    race is less correlated with political belief than party membership is with political belief? color me surprised

  13. #12053
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    Also, anyone who's paying attention should be concerned at the increased advocacy and normalization of violence against the left by people on the right.

    The [Metropolitan Republican Club] didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment on why it has routinely hosted such extremist figures. On Sunday — reacting to outrage over Proud Boys assaulting leftist protesters after the McInnes event ended — the club issued a statement defending its decision to invite McInnes.

    “We want to foster civil discussion, but never endorse violence,” club officials said. “Gavin’s talk on Friday night, while at times was politically incorrect and a bit edgy, was certainly not inciting violence.”

    But McInnes started his speech at the club Friday by re-enacting the 1960 political assassination of Inejiro Asanuma, a leader of the Japanese Socialist Party, who was sliced open with a samurai sword on live television by a far-right ultranationalist.

    ..

    A short time later, video footage shows dozens of those Proud Boys descending upon a much smaller group of anti-fascist protesters on a nearby sidewalk, punching and kicking them as they lay on the ground. They screamed “******s” during the assault. One of the Proud Boys later boasted of beating up a “foreigner.”
    Plus Trump's comments in that speech recently and others. We're facing the possibility of America having our own sort of SA type people in a serious capacity.

  14. #12054
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    Because Americans have never violently suppressed the left either inside or outside of their country

  15. #12055
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    FWIW, I don't get this "university culture" thing. People hardly ever talk politics in either academic department I've been in. Maybe it's a math thing, IDK. Most everyone is liberal, but it's not like we don't have conservatives who we get along with fine.
    I am pretty sure they are talking about the departments that have been taken over by social activists. I mean, liberal professors have been around since basically forever, but I'm not sure they had degree programs where students were explicitly inculcated into adopting their opinions (I mean, they would at least pay lip service to the Euro-centric sort of history that would now be called the "patriarchy" in these departments).
    Last edited by Reverend Jones; 10-19-2018 at 09:40 PM.

  16. #12056
    What strikes me as incredibly concerning though is when you hear people like Jordan Peterson tell Joe Rogan that parents should "send their kids to trade school" rather than university.

    Uh, you know, you don't have to major in Women's Studies, ya know? I really begin to question these people's motives (OK, tbf I probably should have been questioning their motives long before this anyway) when they start saying things like that.

  17. #12057
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    What strikes me as incredibly concerning though is when you hear people like Jordan Peterson tell Joe Rogan that parents should "send their kids to trade school" rather than university.

    Uh, you know, you don't have to major in Women's Studies, ya know? I really begin to question these people's motives (OK, tbf I probably should have been questioning their motives long before this anyway) when they start saying things like that.
    Note that Jordan Peterson isn’t concerned about conservative opinions not being voiced at universities (because he is a professor) but rather that his colleagues are allowed to teach liberal opinions.

    He doesn’t have a list of universities that ban his ideas.

    He does have a list of professors he wants his followers to assassinate.

  18. #12058
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    I am pretty sure they are talking about the departments that have been taken over by social activists. I mean, liberal professors have been around since basically forever, but I'm not sure they had degree programs where students were explicitly inculcated into adopting their opinions (I mean, they would at least pay lip service to the Euro-centric sort of history that would now be called the "patriarchy" in these departments).
    To believe this, you have to believe that departments were taken over, which is already a really dubious claim and one that sounds pretty conspiratorial.. and convenient for cultural conservatives. You've already drank the reactionary kool-aid.

  19. #12059
    I sure hope he didn't actually tell people to assassinate those professors (but I guess I wouldn't be too surprised if what you wrote was more than just a joke).

    Another thing that really bothered me was that he kept chastizing those professors for trying to "start a revolution", that they were dangerous. This makes me think that conservatives are the ones who really don't belong in university departments, tbh... this is really not the way a professor should be talking about his fellow professors: he is basically saying they are too dangerous to continue teaching, which as far as I'm concerned is an attitude that doesn't belong in academia.

  20. #12060
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    Like, I could ask "when were corporations taken over by psychopaths", but I'm already presupposing that such an event took places. Corporations have always been run by psychopaths.

  21. #12061
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    To believe this, you have to believe that departments were taken over, which is already a really dubious claim and one that sounds pretty conspiratorial.. and convenient for cultural conservatives. You've already drank the reactionary kool-aid.
    "Taken over" might not be the right word. Perhaps sprung into existence is more like it (did Women's Studies exist before the 1960's? I'm not sure).

    Also, you don't believe that academic departments are subject to the winds of change? Every field has its fads. I'm not talking about storming the Bastille, but simply pointing out what's in vogue. And yeah, you better believe that kowtowing to academic fads are going to play a role in advancing your academic career. Good luck getting tenure in a Women's Studies department advancing the idea that the "patriarchy" is awesome.

  22. #12062
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Like, I could ask "when were corporations taken over by psychopaths", but I'm already presupposing that such an event took places. Corporations have always been run by psychopaths.
    And Women's Studies...

  23. #12063
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    "Taken over" might not be the right word. Perhaps sprung into existence is more like it (did Women's Studies exist before the 1960's? I'm not sure).

    Also, you don't believe that academic departments are subject to the winds of change? Every field has its fads. I'm not talking about storming the Bastille, but simply pointing out what's in vogue. And yeah, you better believe that kowtowing to academic fads are going to play a role in advancing your academic career. Good luck getting tenure in a Women's Studies department advancing the idea that the "patriarchy" is awesome.
    Of course there are fads, but conservatives have been whining about thoughts and ideas since ever. There's nothing wrong or bad with the current set, despite how hard they stamp their feet and yell.

  24. #12064
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    And Women's Studies...

  25. #12065
    I'm interested to know what you think is being taught in these departments? Have you ever taken a class taught by one of these professors? I have, and it was not pretty.

  26. #12066
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Of course there are fads, but conservatives have been whining about thoughts and ideas since ever. There's nothing wrong or bad with the current set, despite how hard they stamp their feet and yell.
    As far as I know I'm not a conservative, but I know bull**** when I see it.

  27. #12067
    (I can see this conversation is making you very uncomfortable.)

  28. #12068
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    I was being serious. You corrected me by pointing out that perhaps nothing was "taken over". Of course I don't mean that Women's Studies are run by psychopaths--only that whatever problems the exponents of that discipline exhibit may have always been present.

  29. #12069
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    (I can see this conversation is making you very uncomfortable.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    I'm interested to know what you think is being taught in these departments? Have you ever taken a class taught by one of these professors? I have, and it was not pretty.
    Don't know, don't care, but I doubt it's that bad. Why I do care is I have read historical works by people in women's studies that were solid research. Particularly about history involving women, because historically historians haven't cared that much.

  30. #12070
    Another thing to consider is that whatever the "culture" of students who gravitate toward things like Women's Studies may be, it's just as possible that a student was already predisposed to hold the beliefs that conservatives disagree with. So I am not entirely sure it's the professors who are to blame for the fact that college campuses contain people who voice opinions that conservatives dislike.

  31. #12071
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Don't know, don't care, but I doubt it's that bad. Why I do care is I have read historical works by people in women's studies that were solid research. Particularly about history involving women, because historically historians haven't cared that much.
    There are lots of true things written about nutrition on mercola.com, despite the fact that it is basically crackpot. That is very different than passing peer review. Scholarship isn't about churning out good ideas, so much as weeding out the terrible ones that spoil the entire batch.

  32. #12072
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    Another thing to consider is that whatever the "culture" of students who gravitate toward things like Women's Studies may be, it's just as possible that a student was already predisposed to hold the beliefs that conservatives disagree with. So I am not entirely sure it's the professors who are to blame for the fact that college campuses contain people who voice opinions that conservatives dislike.
    Well, yeah, pretty much this. The idea that it's professors making students the way they are is absurd.

  33. #12073
    Well, I'm sure that happens too. People who are predisposed to radical views are clearly going to glom on to ideological material, and all the more so if it has an academic stamp of approval. Of course you know this.

  34. #12074
    What's most disconcerting about the apparent lack of scholarship in these departments. Although I have to say I don't know much about what's really going on besides taking a very ideological survey class--in which we were told that the patriarchy is to blame for the death of some academic writer's son, who died in an auto accident, because cars are a "male" invention, or that a prehistoric matriarchal society in Africa (which has never even been attempted to be shown to have existed through actual anthropological evidence) was wrongly destroyed by the male forces of war and hierarchy, forever damning civilization to suffer at the hands of the patriarchy--it strikes me as hard to believe that one can easily advance their career as a Women's Studies professor being too critical of a lot of this non-sense that seems to just be accepted as fact.

  35. #12075
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    There are lots of true things written about nutrition on mercola.com, despite the fact that it is basically crackpot. That is very different than passing peer review. Scholarship isn't about churning out good ideas, so much as weeding out the terrible ones that spoil the entire batch.
    I have no idea what proportion of Women's Studies journals are bunk

  36. #12076
    And if you think these are minority views, that the field is full of great things, then why was it allowed to filter down to a survey class?

  37. #12077
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    I sure hope he didn't actually tell people to assassinate those professors (but I guess I wouldn't be too surprised if what you wrote was more than just a joke).
    He has depressed right-wing followers struggling with questions about masculine and racial identity and a list of “enemies” who need to “stop teaching”. Do the math. He’s basically one of those imams who get droned except he’s white.

    Another thing that really bothered me was that he kept chastizing those professors for trying to "start a revolution", that they were dangerous. This makes me think that conservatives are the ones who really don't belong in university departments, tbh... this is really not the way a professor should be talking about his fellow professors: he is basically saying they are too dangerous to continue teaching, which as far as I'm concerned is an attitude that doesn't belong in academia.
    authoritarians don’t, so conservatives don’t but only because they’re a strict subset of authoritarians.

    oh, also they’re stupid people with bad ideas. Something else that doesn’t belong in academia.

  38. #12078
    Did he really make a list? That's pretty scary.

  39. #12079
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    What's most disconcerting about the apparent lack of scholarship in these departments. Although I have to say I don't know much about what's really going on besides taking a very ideological survey class--in which we were told that the patriarchy is to blame for the death of some academic writer's son, who died in an auto accident, because cars are a "male" invention, or that a prehistoric matriarchal society in Africa (which has never even been attempted to be shown to have existed through actual anthropological evidence) was wrongly destroyed by the male forces of war and hierarchy, forever damning civilization to suffer at the hands of the patriarchy--it strikes me as hard to believe that one can easily advance their career as a Women's Studies professor being too critical of a lot of this non-sense that seems to just be accepted as fact.
    IDK. The paper I last read was a detailed study into Wehrmacht records about how the soldiers would kidnap women and force them into sex slavery, and they were able to collect enough data to suggest rape was widespread and common practice by Wehrmacht soldiers. It runs in the face of the typical "Russian rape" narrative you hear, and was in most ways more brutal.

    Of course, before this research was done in the past twenty years, nobody really knew much about this stuff. Partly because of access to records, and partly because it's women, so mostly nobody gave a ****.

    So like, yeah, there's some stupid stuff written. I don't go out of my way to find them or memorize these instances, and I don't know why you would. Just.. why? It's like writing a screed against physics because of how dumb they were to allow cold fusion papers to be published.

  40. #12080
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    What's most disconcerting about the apparent lack of scholarship in these departments. Although I have to say I don't know much about what's really going on besides taking a very ideological survey class--in which we were told that the patriarchy is to blame for the death of some academic writer's son, who died in an auto accident, because cars are a "male" invention, or that a prehistoric matriarchal society in Africa (which has never even been attempted to be shown to have existed through actual anthropological evidence) was wrongly destroyed by the male forces of war and hierarchy, forever damning civilization to suffer at the hands of the patriarchy--it strikes me as hard to believe that one can easily advance their career as a Women's Studies professor being too critical of a lot of this non-sense that seems to just be accepted as fact.
    But look, we don't need to turn this into an ideological battle. I think it's pretty common knowledge that academia in general can be extremely insular.

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