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Thread: Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!

  1. #12601
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    I’m not disputing the fact that there is antisemitism on the left (either the real one or the fake American one), but I still don’t understand how socially conservative black nationalists can be considered on “the left” just because they vote for the center-right party that’s less racist than the fascist one.

    I guess this is just one of those mysteries for the ages.
    Because of the same reasons that Jeremy Corbyn can find common cause with extremist religious groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.
    Last edited by Eversor; 10-28-2018 at 01:08 PM.

  2. #12602
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Because of the same reasons that Jeremy Corbyn can find common cause with extremist religious groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.
    So Hamas and Hezbollah are left wing?

  3. #12603
    Quote Originally Posted by Wookie06 View Post
    Sounds like me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Don't feed the trolls.

  4. #12604
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    Don't feed the trolls.
    Trolling requires creativity

  5. #12605
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    So Hamas and Hezbollah are left wing?
    According to Judith Butler and other prominent people on the left they are. Jeremy Corbyn called them Hezbollah and Hamas "friends".

    I know less about Hezbollah, but Hamas definitely models itself as a freedom fighting organization in the same vein as the ANC, and it tries to gain the sympathy of the international left by aligning itself self-consciously with the "anti-imperialist" agenda of the left, and casting itself as an organization devoted to popular resistance.

    Is it "left-wing"? Well, it's certainly aligned with certain elements of the left.

  6. #12606
    It all goes without saying that these aren't representative views on the left. If you're going to talk about left-wing antisemitism, you're going to be talking about people who are exceptional in their irrationality.

  7. #12607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    According to Judith Butler and other prominent people on the left they are. Jeremy Corbyn called them Hezbollah and Hamas "friends".

    I know less about Hezbollah, but Hamas definitely models itself as a freedom fighting organization in the same vein as the ANC, and it tries to gain the sympathy of the international left by aligning itself self-consciously with the "anti-imperialist" agenda of the left, and casting itself as an organization devoted to popular resistance.

    Is it "left-wing"? Well, it's certainly aligned with certain elements of the left.
    I guess Joncy and I tend to define left and right by ideological commitment rather than whomever forms an alliance.

  8. #12608
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Trolling requires creativity
    OK, then don't feed Wookie06

  9. #12609
    Hey, I can be creative! Anyway, if you couldn't tell that quote was the Pittsburgh guy. It was a self-deprecating joke. Jon can use the same quote and post "Sounds like Wookie06," then you'll appreciate it.
    "I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16


  10. #12610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    OK, then don't feed Wookie06
    fair enough

  11. #12611
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    I guess Joncy and I tend to define left and right by ideological commitment rather than whomever forms an alliance.
    Well, it is a matter of ideological commitment. There are people who identify as being on the left in western countries who are so deeply committed to anti-imperialism that they believe that anyone who combats western imperialism is in the right and deserves support. They see organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah (and others) as freedom fighters who are standing up against the bullies of international politics. There's a vision of global order undergirding that form of politics. It's deeply ideological.

  12. #12612
    Quote Originally Posted by Wookie06 View Post
    Hey, I can be creative! Anyway, if you couldn't tell that quote was the Pittsburgh guy. It was a self-deprecating joke. Jon can use the same quote and post "Sounds like Wookie06," then you'll appreciate it.
    Oh, sorry then. I guess I automatically assumed you had a chip on your shoulder after all the abuse you've sustained in this thread, so that such a self-deprecating remark could only have been meant sarcastically.

  13. #12613
    And to be (more) fair to wookie, jon`c did basically say that he checks multiple boxes for being a potential terrorist (so I get the joke now).

  14. #12614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Well, it is a matter of ideological commitment. There are people who identify as being on the left in western countries who are so deeply committed to anti-imperialism that they believe that anyone who combats western imperialism is in the right and deserves support. They see organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah (and others) as freedom fighters who are standing up against the bullies of international politics. There's a vision of global order undergirding that form of politics. It's deeply ideological.
    Yeah but being on the left isn't just anti Western imperialism. That's only one thread of similarity.

    I think you're stretching the umbrella of what counts as left to make a point, some kind of "both sides" meme. Like I don't like the alliances you've pointed out, but I disagree that the mentioned groups are actually left.

  15. #12615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Because of the same reasons that Jeremy Corbyn can find common cause with extremist religious groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.
    Is the United States communist because they found common cause with the Soviet Union during WW2?

  16. #12616
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    Is the United States communist because they found common cause with the Soviet Union during WW2?
    This example came up in my mind, too. Half of the world is Stalinist!

  17. #12617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    This example came up in my mind, too. Half of the world is Stalinist!
    Is guilt by association transitive?

  18. #12618
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    Is the United States communist because they found common cause with the Soviet Union during WW2?
    No. The US didn’t see an ideological ally in the USSR. Radical anti-imperialist leftists do. And Hamas sees an ideological ally in western leftist supporters, and it employees tactics and rhetoric in order to highlight that affinity.

  19. #12619
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Yeah but being on the left isn't just anti Western imperialism. That's only one thread of similarity.

    I think you're stretching the umbrella of what counts as left to make a point, some kind of "both sides" meme. Like I don't like the alliances you've pointed out, but I disagree that the mentioned groups are actually left.
    I swear, you’d respect me so much more if you knew how much patience was required to talk to you about nearly anything.

  20. #12620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    No. The US didn’t see an ideological ally in the USSR. Radical anti-imperialist leftists do. And Hamas sees an ideological ally in western leftist supporters, and it employees tactics and rhetoric in order to highlight that affinity.
    If you say so. I certainly don't feel any ideological alliance with middle eastern terrorists, regardless of any indiscretions of the British leader of a borgie party.

  21. #12621
    In what world are Jeremy Corbyn and Judith Butler not leftists?

  22. #12622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    No. The US didn’t see an ideological ally in the USSR. Radical anti-imperialist leftists do. And Hamas sees an ideological ally in western leftist supporters, and it employees tactics and rhetoric in order to highlight that affinity.
    Yes they did, they agreed on anti-fascism, so they're practically the same.

  23. #12623
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    In what world are Jeremy Corbyn and Judith Butler not leftists?
    I didn't say they weren't. I said what they do is irrelevant. Black nationalism, hamas, and hezbollah are not left wing organizations. As a leftist I don't have to own their actions just because they've befriended some useful idiots.

  24. #12624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    I swear, you’d respect me so much more if you knew how much patience was required to talk to you about nearly anything.
    I just disagree with you on this, sorry man.

  25. #12625
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    If you say so. I certainly don't feel any ideological alliance with middle eastern terrorists, regardless of any indiscretions of the British leader of a borgie party.
    I never said that in order to be on the left one must believe these ideas. I said that there are some on the left who believe them. You can be a leftist and disagree with them. I wouldn’t expect you to find them convincing. They’re bad ideas, and connected with certain anti-Semitic ideas regarding Israel on the left.

  26. #12626
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    I didn't say they weren't. I said what they do is irrelevant. Black nationalism, hamas, and hezbollah are not left wing organizations. As a leftist I don't have to own their actions just because they've befriended some useful idiots.
    That didn’t apply to you.

  27. #12627
    For what it’s worth i find this a very clarifying conversation. I appreciate much better now how totally tribalistic and reflexively unwilling to address the left’s flaws you are.

  28. #12628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    For what it’s worth i find this a very clarifying conversation. I appreciate much better now how totally tribalistic and reflexively unwilling to address the left’s flaws you are.
    It's pretty obvious you're just here to score points against people and have no serious commitment to the argument. This is some Wookie tier ****.

  29. #12629
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Yes they did, they agreed on anti-fascism, so they're practically the same.
    The ideological origins of this form of anti-imperialism ideology are in the New Left. See, for instance, the weather underground justifying its use of violence based on solidarity with anti-colonial freedom fighters throughout the globe. The idea was that those organizations have a legitimate right to use force against imperialist powers, and therefore so did the weather underground, in order to achieve the exact same end that the anti-colonial guerilla groups sought (namely, an end to imperial rule).

  30. #12630
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    It's pretty obvious you're just here to score points against people and have no serious commitment to the argument. This is some Wookie tier ****.
    I know you wish that were true.

  31. #12631
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    You shouldn't have to strongarm people into admitting they don't like antisemitism or any commitment to Hamas or Hezbollah. I obviously recognize the left has antisemites. That's not a new fact. The entire discussion has been centered around you wanting to tie the left to the racism of NOI, Hamas and Hezbollah by noting one ideological commitment vs. a large array.

    Ask people on the left if they prefer the commitments of YPG or Hamas. The answer is clear.

    The reason anyone is reluctant to reply is you're arguing from a bad place and acting like a ****head while doing it, and this motivation is paper thin. You need to stop doing it.

  32. #12632
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    Eversor, let me see if I can circle back to the beginning of this discussion now.

    You argued that Nation of Islam, a socially conservative black nationalism organization, is owned by the left because they've found common cause with certain American left-wing organizations (particularly the Democratic Party). However, being socially conservative and black nationalist, clearly they cannot be ideological allies, just allies of momentary convenience (defeating rich white men). In this case, the common non-ideological cause is enough for you to consider Nation of Islam left-wing.

    But during WW2, the United States and the Soviet Union found common cause. Again, not ideological. Again, of momentary convenience (to defeat the Nazis). But in this case, the fact that the alliance wasn't ideological means you don't consider the United States to be communist.



    Your argument is not logical.

  33. #12633
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    Eversor, let me see if I can circle back to the beginning of this discussion now.

    You argued that Nation of Islam, a socially conservative black nationalism organization, is owned by the left because they've found common cause with certain American left-wing organizations (particularly the Democratic Party). However, being socially conservative and black nationalist, clearly they cannot be ideological allies, just allies of momentary convenience (defeating rich white men). In this case, the common non-ideological cause is enough for you to consider Nation of Islam left-wing.

    But during WW2, the United States and the Soviet Union found common cause. Again, not ideological. Again, of momentary convenience (to defeat the Nazis). But in this case, the fact that the alliance wasn't ideological means you don't consider the United States to be communist.



    Your argument is not logical.
    Jesus. My contention is not that Hamas, Hezbollah or NOI are left-wing as such. My contention is that some left-wingers, based on their ideological commitments, support these organizations see themselves as having an ideological kinship. Please stop strawmaning me.

  34. #12634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Or see Louis Farrakhan, who just recently called Jews termites and has consistently said made anti-Semitic remarks as of late. There’s no shortage of anti-semitism on the left.
    Except you said their leader is on the left....

  35. #12635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Jesus. My contention is not that Hamas, Hezbollah or NOI are left-wing as such. My contention is that some left-wingers, based on their ideological commitments, support these organizations see themselves as having an ideological kinship. Please stop strawmaning me.
    This is how the conversation went:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Or see Louis Farrakhan, who just recently called Jews termites and has consistently said made anti-Semitic remarks as of late.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Can we really call the Nation of Islam left wing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Yes.

  36. #12636
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    You shouldn't have to strongarm people into admitting they don't like antisemitism or any commitment to Hamas or Hezbollah. I obviously recognize the left has antisemites. That's not a new fact. The entire discussion has been centered around you wanting to tie the left to the racism of NOI, Hamas and Hezbollah by noting one ideological commitment vs. a large array.
    I have repeatedly... REPEATEDLY! stated that I am talking about radical views on the left that, while prevalent, are not necessarily representative. I have repeatedly stated exactly what you now claim I am ignoring: that I am talking about certain parts of the left who hold particularly troubling views, and I am only talking about those.

  37. #12637
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    This is how the conversation went:
    Yeah dip****, then I clarified my view:

    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    So Hamas and Hezbollah are left wing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Is it "left-wing"? Well, it's certainly aligned with certain elements of the left.

  38. #12638
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    So even if we let this go and don't hold you to your original (expressly stated) claim that Nation of Islam is on the left, you're still sticking with it as an example of antisemitism on the left because they have common cause with some left-wing groups. And now we're back to guilt by association.

    I'm not arguing there isn't antisemitism on the left, but this is a good point very badly argued.

  39. #12639
    Believe it or not I actually adjusted my view about NOI in light of our conversation! Imagine that!

  40. #12640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Yeah dip****, then I clarified my view:
    Sorry, it's just hard to follow your train of thought, no need to drop insults.

    You're always welcome to PM me if you have a personal issue over making these public displays.

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