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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Castle Massassenstein Book Club
Castle Massassenstein Book Club
2017-08-29, 3:40 PM #1
Chapter 1

The fantasy always runs like this: A team of us has fought our way into his secret bunker. Okay, it's a fantasy, let's go whole hog. I've single-handedly neutralized his elite guard and have burst into his bunker, my Browning machine gun at the ready. He lunges for his Luger; I knock it out of his hand. He lunges for the cyanide pill he keeps to commit suicide rather than be captured. I knock that out of his hand as well. He snarls in rage, attacks with otherworldly strength. We grapple; I manage to gain the upper hand and pin him down and handcuff him. "Adolf Hitler," I announce, "I arrest you for crimes against humanity."

And this is where the medal-of-honor version of the fantasy ends and the imagery darkens. What would I do with Hitler? The viscera become so raw that I switch to passive voice in my mind, to get some distance. What should be done with Hitler? It's easy to imagine, once I allow myself. Severe his spine at the neck, leave him paralyzed but with sensation. Take out his eyes with a blunt instrument. Puncture his eardrums, rip out his tongue. Keep him alive, tube-fed, on a respirator. Immobile, unable to speak, to see, to hear, only able to feel. Then inject him with something that will give him a cancer that festers and pullsates in every corner of his body, that will grow until every one of his cells shrieks with agony, till every moment feels like an infinity spent in the fires of hell. That's what should be done with Hitler. That's what I would want to do with Hitler. That's what I would do with Hitler.

Robert Sapolsky
Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst
Copyright 2017
2017-08-29, 3:50 PM #2
go on...
I had a blog. It sucked.
2017-08-29, 4:21 PM #3
Quote:
You reach out to touch someone’s arm, or perhaps you pull a trigger. What made that happen? In this extraordinary survey of the science of human behaviour, the biologist Robert Sapolsky takes the reader on an epic journey backwards through time, and through different scientific disciplines. His governing question is: what explains the fact that humans can massacre one another but also perform spectacular acts of altruistic kindness? Is one side of our nature destined to win out over the other?

The backwards time-travel is an excellent organising principle. Seconds before our action, it is neuroscience that investigates what is going on in the brain; minutes to days before is the domain of endocrinology (hormonal fluctuations). Days to months before, we focus on the brain’s ability to learn and rewire itself. Sapolsky goes back through adolescence, childhood and gestation (including genetics), and, beyond the birth of the individual, to more distant causes still – those found in culture, evolutionary psychology, game theory and comparative zoology. He makes the book consistently entertaining, with an infectious excitement at the puzzles he explains, and wry dude-ish asides. (Humans, he notes, can “delay gratification for insanely long times” compared with other animals. “No warthog restricts calories to look good in a bathing suit next summer.”) He likes to call certain facts “boggling” when he is personally amazed by them; it’s charmingly infectious.

This book is a miraculous synthesis of scholarly domains, and at the same time laudably careful in its determination to point out at every step the limits of our knowledge. Sapolsky offers a vivid account of a standard view before lining up complications or objections to it from other research, particularly in brain science. (Testosterone, for example, does not cause aggression but amplifies pre-existing tendencies for or against it. The actions of such molecules in general “depend dramatically on context”). In a phrase that has unfortunately become associated with the dishonest attempts to smuggle creationism into American schools, he is adept at “teaching the controversy”, often providing anecdotes of scientists with battling views from decades ago. Throughout, he insists on how much individual variability there is hidden beneath the statistical averages of studies, and how the explanation of nearly every human phenomenon is going to be “multifactorial”: dependent on many causes. The literature on one scientific question, he notes comfortingly, is “majorly messy”.

Along the way there are many counterintuitive ideas and stern lessons. Empathy – feeling someone’s pain – is not as likely to lead to useful action as dispassionate sympathy, or “cold-blooded kindness”. Income inequality is concretely causally bad for the health of the poorer. There is a well-established link between rightwing authoritarianism and lower IQ. Genes are not destiny, and they are not “selfish” a la Dawkins; “we haven’t evolved to be ‘selfish’ or ‘altruistic’ or anything else – we’ve evolved to be particular ways in particular settings”. (According to one astonishing survey, 46% of women would save their own dog rather than a foreign tourist if both were menaced by a runaway bus. The evolutionary explanation is that they feel more “kinship” with the dog.) In general, if our worst behaviours are “the product of our biology”, so are our best ones. That Sapolsky’s heart is evidently in the right place makes it easy to discount certain hippyish outbursts such as that the invention of agriculture “was one of the all-time human blunders”, since it led to sedentary living and social hierarchy. Sure, but it also led to wine, science and books, which I’d suggest on balance makes it rather a good thing.

More thorny is the point at which he comes to address the question of individual choice and responsibility. For nearly 600 pages, barring the odd mention of the “cognitive” aspects of human action, Sapolsky sidelines the question of what place conscious reasoning has in determining behaviour, among all the neurochemical, hormonal, developmental and evolutionary factors he has been discussing. Indeed, sometimes he writes as though it has no place at all, as when he asks what sensory input “triggered the nervous system to produce that behaviour”. He eventually nails his colours to the mast of strict determinism: every human action is inescapably caused by preceding events in the world, including events in the brain. So there can be no such thing as free will. (It follows, of course, that social systems such as that of criminal justice must be completely overhauled, as philosophers such as Ted Honderich have long suggested.) You think you can freely choose to do one thing or another? Forget it, Sapolsky says.

It’s a common view, though by no means the overwhelming philosophical consensus. Notably, he prefers to cite mainly neuroscientists and legal scholars. Sapolsky ends the chapter with a display of his pleasingly undogmatic spirit, confessing that he finds it impossible actually to live his life as though he does not have free will. It’s perhaps worth noting, too, that one study he does not mention here (by Kathleen Vohs and Jonathan Schooler in 2008) implies that the idea we have free will, whether true or not, is a crucial placebo idea for a well-functioning society: in the experiment, subjects convinced they didn’t have free will were more likely to act unethically.

But Sapolsky’s insistence on the truth of strict determinism poses wider problems for the way he frames the rest of his book. One thing he refreshingly emphasises is that reason and emotion (“cognition and affect”) always interact, and that there are advantages to “combining reason with intuition”. This is a welcome counterbalance to the recent misanthropic strain of psychology that seeks to downgrade rationality altogether, but it is not clear that, on Sapolsky’s own view, conscious reasoning can accomplish anything at all if decisions are inexorably determined by the laws of nature. Which poses a challenge to his own humanistic optimism. We are not at the mercy of our amygdala’s fearful response to human faces of a different race, he argues; we can dampen and overcome such prejudice through reflection. Yet on his own view, we cannot freely decide to do so.

For the same reasons, it is unclear how much value there is in the author’s uplifting exhortations to think more carefully about our actions, and even to imbue politics with a new kind of science-based “peaceology”. Perhaps the idea is that such encouragement will be a new part of the causal chain affecting each individual’s behaviour, so compelling his readers to act more sociably. In which case I hope this book sells several billion copies.

It remains debatable, though, whether strict determinism is compatible with Sapolsky’s final message of hope for humanity, as he tells inspiring stories about moral heroism in history – the helicopter officer who stopped the My Lai massacre, the Christmas Day football match during the first world war. Sapolsky is on the side of Steven Pinker’s argument, in The Better Angels of Our Nature, that humanity is overall getting less violent and nasty, and points to some lessons from the “social plasticity” demonstrated in troops of baboons, one of Sapolsky’s own specialities. He thus sets himself against conservative pessimism about brutish human nature. “Anyone who says that our worst behaviours are inevitable knows too little about primates, including us.”

Yet the question remains: if human beings are simply reactive robots, slaves to natural law who are causally buffeted by a zillion factors of biology and circumstance, why would we have any say in whether things get better? Either they will or they won’t, but on this magisterial account it seems that we can’t really choose to do anything about it.


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/jun/09/behave-by-robert-sapolsky-review
2017-08-29, 4:21 PM #4
I'll let you guys know what I think when I finish a more substantial portion of the book, but it sounds pretty cool.
2017-08-29, 9:59 PM #5
This thread isn't going to help you with overthrowing Reid as the High Commander of the Pretentious Patrol, you know.
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2017-08-29, 10:21 PM #6
Smart people = book learnin` folk
2017-08-29, 10:22 PM #7
You guys can't seriously think I made this thread just to look smart!
2017-08-30, 6:38 AM #8
not "just"

:smug: :smug: :smug:
2017-08-30, 3:40 PM #9
I gotta restricit my ****ing calories and start working out. Read the first part, skimmed through the second, sounds interesting.

Latest thing I read was Elite: Dangerous novel, Reclamation, on chapter 10 now or so. It's pretty good, I suppose. I am enjoying it.

>>it is not clear that, on Sapolsky’s own view, conscious reasoning can accomplish anything at all if decisions are inexorably determined by the laws of nature.

Yeah right. We all have choices to make, whether they are illusory or not; it would not make them any less "real"; this guy must've loved the Matrix movies.

Our duty as human beings is to exercise the choices we have in such a way as to improve ourselves and the lives of those around us without hurting other human beings (or any other beings, as much as possible), I think, and until we can embrace this fact, we will continue to struggle.

But once you embrace that you have a choice (insert quotes if you wish) over the kind of life you want to live, you can train your willpower to achieve it, even if you have to fight nature itself to achieve it. Your nature. The nature of the world, on the whole, is too immense for us to begin to comprehend (although we are constantly striving to do so, which is commendable), but the moment that we begin to see ourselves as part of a bigger whole, we can "delay gratification" in order to benefit this whole somehow, starting with ourselves.

I don't think I'm going to read this book because:

1) I don't have the time
2) I think it's bs

Thanks for sharing though.

Over & out.
幻術
2017-08-30, 3:43 PM #10
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Smart people = book learnin` folk


You can read a lot of books and still be dumb as a **** brickhouse if you don't allow yourself to view the world from different perspectives.

And what is the measure of intelligence anyway? Didn't someone here say that intelligence is counter-productive to the survival of a species?

I do think we've a chance. We just gotta make a collective choice before someone else makes it for us.
幻術
2017-08-30, 3:49 PM #11
Well, of course you should read what appeals to you since life is short, but I do think you took that reviewer's philosophical waxing about free will a bit too seriously. It's not really what the book is about, except perhaps to show that humans are more predictibly bad in ways they aren't aware of. That said, Sapolsky does say that his inclination toward pessimism was somewhat overcome by the end of the book.
2017-08-30, 3:59 PM #12
Sapolsky doesn't get to "free will" until chapter 16, but its opening paragraph is oh-so-interesting for other reasons.

Quote:
Biology, the Criminal Justice System, and (Oh, Why Not?) Free Will

Some years back a foundation sent a letter to various people, soliciting Big Ideas for a funding initiative of theirs. The letter said something along the lines of "Send us a provocative idea, something you'd never propose to another foundation because they'd label you crazy."

That sounded fun. So I sent them a proposal titled "Should the Criminal Justice System Be Abolished?" I argued that the answer was yes, that neuroscience shows the system makes no sense and they should fund an initiative to accomplish that.

"Ha-ha," they said. "Well, we asked for it. That certainly caught our attention. That's a great idea to focus on interactions between neuroscience and the law. Let's do a conference."

So I went to a conference with some neuroscientists and some legal types--law professors, judges, and criminologists. We learned one another's terminology, for example seeing how we neuroscientists and the legal people use "possible", "probable", and "certainly" differently. We discovered that most of the neuroscientists, including me, knew nothing about the workings of the legal world, and that most of the legal folks had avoided science since being traumatized by nineth-grade biology. Despite the two-culture problem, all sorts of collaborations got started there, which eventually grew into a network of people studying "neurolaw".

Fun, stimulating, interdisciplinary hybrid vigor. And frustrating to me, because I kind of meant the title of the proposal that I had written. The current criminal justice system needs to be abolished and replaced with something that, while having some broad features in common with the current system (namely keeping dangerous people far away from everyone else-just to get this one out of the way early in the chapter), would have utterly different underpinnings. Which I'm going to try to convince you of. And that's just the first part of this chapter.
2017-08-30, 9:44 PM #13
Neurolaw

is a badass word

I do not exclude the possibility of a linear, predetrimned world. Faith is a choice. Every generation had their own version of it. But we always had, and have faith.

In an ideal world, you would not need a Criminal Justice System because nobody would commit any crimes.

The Strugatsky brothers wrote well of future utopian worlds where progress met drive. humanity's passion for for science, stars, and for each other; there were no villains not in the traditional sense of the word. cowards, maybe. But there will always be cowards.

It was a vision of a brighter future for mankind, so far from any ideology (yes, they were Communists, but that hardly mattered narrative-wise; their virtues were free of politics).

So yeah.

I think we have a chance.

As well as a choice.

We just gotta believe it and act accordingly.
幻術
2017-08-30, 9:53 PM #14
Just to be clear, I don't believe Sapolsky is advocating for the absence of a criminal justice system. Just that, self-proclaimed hippy that he is, he is observing how severely ****ed up our society can be for locking people up based on the judgement of the jury of our peers, election of judges who promise to lock away scary people and throw away the key, etc., in light of (I am presuming) his experience in neuroscience, and ya know, a basic sense of human decency.
2017-08-30, 10:09 PM #15
Some humans are broken, some are evil, and some are both. They can be very dangerous. The system is not absurd because we humans live in packs, and those who **** us from the inside out have to go. But perhaps they need medical attention, or to live in a field alone ... imagine a VR prison, where the criminals "live" in VR realities that their psychologists find most "healing" / beneficial for them. All kinds of violent behaviour is severely frowned upon, and, should you continue to misbehave, they cut your access to the internet in your break hours.

Once you have completed the cycle of healing prescribed to you by the collective subconsciousness, they take your body out of cryo and put your brain back into your skullcap.

Simon says, justice is best served on ice.

[http://www.thewholebrevitything.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/demolition-man-458741l-1050x591.png]
幻術
2017-08-30, 11:23 PM #16
Well, let me make clear that Sapolsky is clearly justified in his critique of the criminal justice system, if you allow me to quote the paragraph that follows the one I quoted from chapter 16:

Quote:
You can't be less controversial than stating that the criminal justice system needs reform and that this should involve more science and less pseudoscience in the courtroom. If nothing else, consider this: according to the Innocence Project, nearly 350 people, a mind-boggling 20 of them on death row, imprisoned an average of fourteen years, have been exonerated by DNA fingerprinting.


Originally posted by Koobie:
The system is not absurd because we humans live in packs,


This is a disturbingly cynical, tribal rationalization for a brutally inhumane criminal justice system.
2017-08-30, 11:40 PM #17
But I should also be clear: Sapolsky does not use this chapter to launch a liberal assault on the criminal justice system, following up the passage I last quoted with the following disclaimer:

Quote:
Despite that, I'm going to mostly ignore criminal justice reform by science.

[...]

All of these are important issues, and I think reforms are needed at the intersection of progressive politics, civil liberties, and tough standards about new science. In other words, a standard liberal agenda. Most of the time I'm a cliched card-carrying liberal; I even know the theme song to many of NPR's programs. Nonetheless, this chapter won't take anything resembling a liberal approach to reforming criminal justice.


Originally posted by Koobie:
Some humans are broken, some are evil, and some are both.


Actually, by hitting on the distinction between "broken" vs. "evil", you in fact seem to have arrived at Sapolsky's main argument about criminal justice vis-a-vis free will:

Quote:
...some, many, maybe even most of the people who were prosecuting epileptics in the fifteenth century were no different from us-sincere, cautious, and ethical, concerned about the serious problems threatening their society, hoping to bequeath their children to a safer world. Just operating with an unrecognizably different mindset. The psychological distance from them to us is vast, separated by the yawning chasm that was the discovery of "It's not her, it's her disease." Having crossed that divide, the distance we now need to go is far shorter-it merely consists of taking that same insight and being willing to see its valid extension in whatever directions science takes us.

The hope is that when it comes to dealing with humans whose behaviors are among our worst and most damaging, words like "evil" and "soul" will be as irrelevant as when considering a car with faulty brakes, that they will be as rarely spoken in a courtroom as in an auto repair shop. And crucially, the analogy holds in a key way, extending to instances of dangerous people without anything obviously wrong with their frontal cortex, genes, and so on. When a car is being dysfunctional and dangerous and we take it to a mechanic, this is not a dualistic situation where (a) if the mechanic discovers some broken widget causing the problem, we have a mechanistic explanation, but (b) if the mechanic can't find anything wrong, we're dealing with an evil car; sure, the mechanic can speculate on the source of the problem-maybe it's the blueprint from which the car was built, maybe it was the building process, maybe the environment contains some unknown pollutant that somehow impairs function, maybe someday we'll have sufficiently powerful techniques in the auto shop to spot some key molecule in the engine that is out of whack-but in the meantime we'll consider this car to be evil. Car free will also equals "internal forces we do not understand yet."


N.b.: earlier in the chapter, Sapolksy quotes Marvin Minsky having defined free will as "internal forces I do not understand".
2017-09-19, 10:55 AM #18
#sff_eBookDeal: Get EARTHSEED: THE COMPLETE SERIES by Octavia E. Butler for $1.99!
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B072NZBPFG/sfsi0c-20

(I found my Kindle) :)
幻術
2017-09-20, 4:16 PM #19
I've never read anything by Octavia E. Butler before; now that I'd started the book, I can't stop reading.

Probably not a big surprise since she apparently was the protege of one of my favorite writers of all time, Harlan Ellison ... the discount's still on. It's post-apocalyptic (well ... SORT OF) and not very happy (to say the least) so far, but I'm really enjoying it.
幻術
2017-09-20, 4:19 PM #20
Got it from a tweet recommendation by John Joseph Adams (editor of Lightspeed & other magazines), who phrased it like this:

"Perhaps the most prescient of Octavia Butler's works (it even predicted "Make America Great Again" as a campaign slogan!). Brilliant books."
幻術
2017-09-24, 4:54 PM #21
Book acquisitions: Earthseed: Parable of the Sower, Earthseed: Parable of the Talents (Butler), Learn Python the Hard Way (Shaw), The Hero with a Thousand Faces (Campbell), Deathbird (Ellison), Karen Memory (Bear).
幻術
2017-09-27, 4:41 AM #22
Just bought Dawson's "Perfect Weapon" yesterday (a Star Wars novelette). Looking forward to reading it, although I'm not sure I'll enjoy it. Call it professional interest. She's the author of the latest PHASMA book by the way. Anyone read it? Or any recent Star Wars books?

I tried the first pages of Chuck Wendig's one, the one in present tense, just couldn't get into it, didn't buy.

Which Star Wars book would you recommend? Preferably after Disney threw the equivalent to the GDP of Liberia at Mr. Lucas.
幻術
2017-09-27, 4:55 AM #23
And, has anyone read N.K. Jameson?

Btw, there is a MEGAFLAMEWAROFDOOM going on in SF circles for a few years now. Anyone heard of Sad Puppies / Rabid Puppies? That's why the Dragon Awards were "invented" apparently. All started with SFWA axing Bulletin & firing Mike Resnick in 2013 (I think), and the ****'s been going on ever since.

A recent article on one point of view ("women are overrepresented in SF"): http://delarroz.com/?p=1437

A recent article on the opposite point of view ("that's bs and men don't follow guidelines"): www.jasonsanford.com/blog/2017/9/the-submissions-men-dont-see

The GENDER WARS are real.

[https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81-fN20yK7L._SX522_.png]
幻術
2017-09-27, 7:11 PM #24
"There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do not wave in a vacuum."
— Arthur C. Clarke
幻術
2017-10-04, 1:13 AM #25
Ever since Disney killed off the EU I kind of lost interest in Star Wars books. I still have some to read but not enough time. But I'll start a new job next month, where I can commute by train so maybe then I'll use the time to read again.
Sorry for the lousy German
2017-10-04, 5:12 AM #26
They are not very good.
幻術
2017-10-04, 5:13 AM #27
For now.
幻術
2017-10-10, 1:09 AM #28
So, it looks like Kazuo Ishiguro has won the Nobel Prize in literature... which kind of ticks me off--at myself.

Several months ago, Eversor recommended a Vox podcast in which Tim Wu was interviewed. At the end of the interview, he was asked to recommend a favorite novel, and his choice was Remains of the Day. I have yet to read the book (so no spoilers please), but I had started and still intended to pick it up again. But you know what? Now that Ishiguro has won the Nobel Prize, there are now like 80 people waiting to check out 10 copies of the same book from my local library. :P

I guess it's time to break down and just buy my own copy....

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