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Thread: How good is/was JK?

  1. #1
    Child's Play CharitySon of Krokodile XVI
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    5,087

    How good is/was JK?

    Realistically, how good was it for its time and how does it hold up today? Also, why? I guess I'm talking mainly the vanilla SP and MP, but it's hard to ignore mods and user-made levels in this question.

    I feel like JK was genuinely a good game. It has aged rather poorly in various ways, but I think some of its greatest strengths still shine through today. The level design is pretty solid, the diverging duality between Jedi and Sith and how Kyle will end up in the player's hands is cool, the bosses vary in quality but are rather enjoyable with their introductions and all, the force powers are both a fun power trip and a set of useful tools, etc. The lightsaber is also great to have but I can never get over how much more fun that particular weapon was in JO/JA.

    As for the multiplayer, objectively I would say Quake 2 was far ahead in those days. Still, I've played LOADS more JK MP than any Quake. But I'm also a guy who clocked most of those hours playing sabers nf, a way of playing the game which, by eliminating the Force powers, probably eliminated the one element that made JK MP special for a good portion of its players.

    Then there's MotS. I've played so little of it that I won't say anything.

    As for user-made levels and mods, well, we're on Massassi here. To us, that stuff kept the game alive for many years. Even quite recently we've had some level releases for JK that have been more than worthwhile.

    All in all, I would say it's a heavily outdated game with strengths that are still apparent to this day to anyone looking past its quirks and clunky old mechanics.

    But that may be just nostalgic bias talking.
    Last edited by Krokodile; 10-01-2017 at 09:02 PM.

  2. #2
    FF was incredibly lame because it turned into a dragon ball z style fight where everybody just obliterated each other on (deadly) sight. Though I do have good memories of being thrown off the cloud city catwalk (MotS) by force destruction.

    NF sabers was pretty cool but I'm told that lag was a major buzz kill. TBQH I was too dumb to care for the most part but I do remember being a little frustrated when I got a little older.

    MotS was bloody brilliant (better than JK in some ways) and I plan to replay it soon. The puzzles eluded me as teenager for quite some time, especially the stuff involving force powers on the last few levels. I actually opened up the damn thing in JED at some point just to try to figure out what I was missing. I wasn't very successful though because I didn't understand cog.

    What was really lame were the hacks, like

    • walkplayer transmutation into an energy unit powerup
    • conc projectiles coming out of a repeater
    • spawning an astronomical number of things and crashing the game


    More cool was flipping the water flag to on for every sector of the entire game, cycling through rainbow colors of sector tint to implement disco, or simply rotating dead walkplayers in some kind of exorcist-style phenomenon.

    Mods like the grappling hook were highly amusing, especially when used for shenanigans like creating a human chain hanging from a cliff, or to drag bodies along. JO had similar fun when people decided to stack themselves by simply standing on top of one another.

    Less fun were some of the extremely cheap weapons on MotS multiplayer: namely, seeker dets, and the carbonite gun + force push.
    Last edited by Reverend Jones; 10-01-2017 at 11:03 PM.

  3. #3
    A few things could also be said about LEC production values. I don't know how they compared to other games at the time, but aside from Half-Life, I don't think many games took immersion in the story too seriously. Dark Forces was the same way in comparison to Doom (id has always focused very much on satiating subterranean psychological impulses compared to the far more cerebral Star Wars universe). And like every LEC game I've played, the music and also the sound effects were superb.

    And I think that Justin Chin has even said that JK beat Half Life in terms of immersing the player in the story. Choosing light or dark side was brilliantly integrated into the game (even if the dark side cinematics are a bit more sparse).
    Last edited by Reverend Jones; 10-01-2017 at 11:48 PM.

  4. #4
    The only games that I've come to love as much as JK are Morrowind and TIE Fighter. And actually to be honest these games are better than JK. But JK is certainly has a unique position in my nostolgia. Arguably Dark Forces had more interesting texture to it, but the game is somewhat more limited.

  5. #5
    I played Morrowind with the overhaul for a while.

    It looks and plays amazing, although I disabled the long range terrain generation eventually because my laptop is not hardcore enough.

    It's worth checking out: http://www.ornitocopter.net/morrowind-overhaul/

  6. #6
    Thanks, but I think I'll be holding my breath for the JK overhaul.

  7. #7
    There already is one; it was made by Shred18.
    https://www.massassi.net/levels/files/3087.shtml

  8. #8
    Sometime later this week I'll try to run the infamous

    FGR STAR WARS LEVEL

    If I can only remember what it's properly called.


  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Koobie View Post
    There already is one; it was made by Shred18.
    https://www.massassi.net/levels/files/3087.shtml
    I'm not talking about that.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Koobie View Post
    Sometime later this week I'll try to run the infamous

    FGR STAR WARS LEVEL

    If I can only remember what it's properly called.

    Please don't.

  11. #11
    Please do.

    Doobie doo dee dee da da.

  12. #12
    I think the closest to a JK overhaul you are going to get is going to be Visceral's upcoming Star Wars game.


  13. #13

    NIKVMVS-REX-TODOA

    Posts
    17,292
    Would you look at that, here's a thread that Reverend Jones can't turn into somehow being about Trump.

    Guess I'll have to do it for him!

    Attachment 27598

    (Source)

    (inb4 4 pages of "yeah, well, but Sartré said")
    ''

  14. #14
    He was awarded the 1964 Nobel Prize in Literature but refused it, saying that he always declined official honours and that "a writer should not allow himself to be turned into an institution".
    Sartré, keeping it real.

  15. #15
    Child's Play CharitySon of Krokodile XVI
    Posts
    5,087
    Koobie, the FGR JK level is called TODOA, or The Truth of the Destruction of Apocalopolis. It's definitely worth your while!

    Jones, the lag was certainly a huge factor in JK MP. I'm biased, but I never saw it as ruining the game, it was just a part of it that you learned to live with. What that meant in sabers nf was that you could almost never rely on visual feedback, or whether you hit your opponent or not. In fact, if it appeared as though you'd hit them and they let out a grunt, you could be certain in most cases that your lightsaber had just swept through thin air.

    There was one audio cue that clued you in to whether your saber made contact. That was the sound of the opponent losing some of his shield. The name of the game, then, was determining how much lag there was for a particular opponent (it tended to remain constant with each of them) and compensating for that by timing your saber swings that much ahead of your opponent's movement. And when you heard that one particular sound, you knew you'd shaved off some of your opponent's health and you could plan your next moves accordingly. If you'd hit them with Fire 1 (for the quick but less powerful swipe), for instance, you knew that one hit with Fire 2 (the slow but more powerful double swing) would do them in. Unless of course they'd found some power ups and replenished their health and shield.

    It was surprisingly tactical and quite fun due to that, at least between people who knew what they were doing. That's why I got addicted to it back then. Of course, I wouldn't wish that netcode (or 90s internet connections) on any game today.

  16. #16
    Thank you Krokodile, I will try to check it out if I will manage to get JK running on Win 10.

    I liked all about the multiplayer. The maps, the RPG conversions, Dresden Island (was it?), that Nar Shaddaa map somebody built with bosses and such. I see that some of the people who were editing here at the time went on being creative all their life (although some no longer post and some are sadly no longer with us).

    In multi JK, I liked the saber duels.

    FF was fine too.

    No complaining allowed in FF. You're either good enough, or you're not.

    I had a clan called [D6]. Bunch of people joined because I made a cool (I think, for 90's standards) website with stolen graphics, a roster in an HTML table and a Darth Vader .wav saying, "We would be honored if you would join us." It was fun.

    I don't remember how old I was.

    I would still like to go on editing games; I'd built a couple levels in JED, well, 2 levels which count (my first level was a hangar with a Tie Bomber and a Prodigy loop) back then. It was extremely rewarding. I felt that I am creating something, something I can see right in front of me. Because it is in a computer does not make what you create any less real.

    We all fly / run / stumble together in this matrix of life.

  17. #17
    the only other thing i ever made from scratch that resembles a game is talk straight so far, not counting my current efforts, but it's too early on that front. i was always amazed at the skills level editors / designers (i mean the modders) seemed to have: music, production, gameplay / programming (of course) / the actual flow, and so on. i guess i never felt that JK was the engine to really dig into at the time; even later, i still didn't try other engines or any programming or designing of any kind other than on paper.

    and it's always about me.

    such is my design.

    determinism is a curious concept.

    what if we are reliving our lives like a looping .gif
    so there is no end and no beginning
    and our every action
    affects the world around us and also affects everyone
    sharing our time in the magical .gif loop

    so, even if we'd wanted to make different choices in life
    we wouldn't
    and this loop of rebirths will just go on and on and on until perhaps this .gif, these pixels, do not somehow elevate themselves into a plane they can not perceive and accept a higher truth

    which is that
    we can not claim to know how the world works
    or, more, importantly, why.

    but it is our duty to try to find out
    and so, in serving our purpose,
    we will transform ourselves
    Last edited by Koobie; 10-02-2017 at 04:37 AM.

  18. #18
    The point of that exercise was to make more endings.

    To that degree, it had succeeded I think. There are 9 (or 10).

    Everything is an exercise. The wisdom here I think is never stop exercising, or it all would have been for nothing.
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  19. #19
    Now that I look at it, I can't help thinking that it is literally a web of lies.

  20. #20
    Most of them, to myself.

    But at the same time, it was all practice.

    It all comes down to

    <<<<<<<<<<<<(practice)
    Last edited by Koobie; 10-02-2017 at 04:53 AM.

  21. #21
    Child's Play CharitySon of Krokodile XVI
    Posts
    5,087
    Umm Koobie, I'm sorry but what does any of that have to do with the topic?
    Looks like we're not going down after all, so nevermind.

  22. #22
    I guess I'm just trying to encourage FGR not to give up on editing.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Krokodile View Post
    If you'd hit them with Fire 1 (for the quick but less powerful swipe), for instance, you knew that one hit with Fire 2 (the slow but more powerful double swing) would do them in. Unless of course they'd found some power ups and replenished their health and shield.

    It was surprisingly tactical and quite fun due to that, at least between people who knew what they were doing. That's why I got addicted to it back then. Of course, I wouldn't wish that netcode (or 90s internet connections) on any game today.
    Yes! It was so much fun trying to time the secondary-fire saber swing so that it would hit his back just as you you walked just passed him, so he couldn't block it.

  24. #24
    What I always loved about Jedi Knight was the awesome scale. Everything was so big and it felt real. Are there anymore games like that? Even with the open world games I just don't get the same feeling I get when playing JK and I don't know why.
    Sorry for the lousy German

  25. #25

    "Has it won yet?"

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    17,185
    Quote Originally Posted by Impi View Post
    What I always loved about Jedi Knight was the awesome scale. Everything was so big and it felt real. Are there anymore games like that? Even with the open world games I just don't get the same feeling I get when playing JK and I don't know why.
    I agree. A lot of open world games feel like stuff placed on a plane while many regular FPS's have tight, controlled corridors and rooms that escort the player. JK was sorta like a cross between the two, and I don't think JK could get away with that today given the level of detail people expect from levels.
    SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
    -----------------------------@%

  26. #26
    Doesn't care what his title is
    Christmas Cardmaker Extrordinarie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impi View Post
    What I always loved about Jedi Knight was the awesome scale. Everything was so big and it felt real. Are there anymore games like that? Even with the open world games I just don't get the same feeling I get when playing JK and I don't know why.
    The Witcher 3. It is grand, in the truest sense of the world. Very large, yet very detailed. It has a sort of "morality" system that allows the player to make choices, but they're not simply the good choice or the bad choice. The choices are complicated and the outcomes uncertain. It's excellent.

  27. #27
    Likes Kittens. Eats Fluffies
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    Witcher 3 = best.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by saberopus View Post
    Witcher 3 = best.
    Can't wait for Cyberpunk 2077!

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