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Thread: Anything games

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    What makes you think I want them to stop?

  2. #202
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    I want Bethesda to remaster Oblivion and Morrowind so I can rebuy them every three years, too. Please.

    Edit: I’m not being sarcastic. I mean this sincerely.
    Last edited by Jon`C; 07-10-2018 at 07:15 PM.

  3. #203
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    Morrowind and Oblivion were both better than Skyrim; I'd rather see remastered versions of those than another Ultra Skyrim HD Turbo Revival: Game of the Year Edition

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Actually, kind of. It's interesting how basically the way video games/the internet is structured now is like a slot machine. The game Todd Howard shows is like a slot machine: pretty flashing lights, satisfying, and addictive mechanics.

    In a sense all of this is very immoral, we as a society tolerate manipulating people who are less able to control themselves. It's interesting how Facebook et al are intrinsically immoral, emotionally manipulative systems we allow to exist.
    I'm not sure if I missed something shady later on in his talk, but the stuff he's talking about @ 38:00 is pretty intrinsic to all game design. One of the biggest misunderstandings I see a lot of gamers have is the idea that games are designed as difficult tests for them to prove themselves against, when in reality they're basically designed to give the player a handie most of the time (w/just the right amount of challenge for it to feel convincing). Valve's developer commentary in the HL2 episodes is a really great example of this.

    If that stuff is tied to abusive monetization schemes then it's definitely immoral. The rest of the time...I don't think it's evil per se, but I don't think gamer culture at large has necessarily benefited from this constant affirmation that they're the smartest and best at everything

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    I want Bethesda to remaster Oblivion and Morrowind so I can rebuy them every three years, too. Please.

    Edit: I’m not being sarcastic. I mean this sincerely.
    Honestly, this. If they'd remaster those I'd buy them in a heartbeat. And for as many problems as Skyrim had, it's leagues beyond much of the crap that's delivered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    Morrowind and Oblivion were both better than Skyrim; I'd rather see remastered versions of those than another Ultra Skyrim HD Turbo Revival: Game of the Year Edition
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn[numbarz] View Post
    I'm not sure if I missed something shady later on in his talk, but the stuff he's talking about @ 38:00 is pretty intrinsic to all game design. One of the biggest misunderstandings I see a lot of gamers have is the idea that games are designed as difficult tests for them to prove themselves against, when in reality they're basically designed to give the player a handie most of the time (w/just the right amount of challenge for it to feel convincing). Valve's developer commentary in the HL2 episodes is a really great example of this.

    If that stuff is tied to abusive monetization schemes then it's definitely immoral. The rest of the time...I don't think it's evil per se, but I don't think gamer culture at large has necessarily benefited from this constant affirmation that they're the smartest and best at everything
    Well that's kinda what I mean. When gaming was more self-contained, yes it had a similar reward mechanism, but besides buying the initial game there wasn't much keeping you there. However now we have a different system, online systems keep you online so you'll feed more data and see more ads, games encourage you to buy more microtransactions. They're trying to profit from this feeling in us, and it's wrong.

  6. #206
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    So, if anyone wants a grasp of just how much of a goddamned nerd I am, I'm playing a druid in my DnD campaign and I'm writing and distributing pamphlets to push for animal rights in our world.

    If anyone is curious, here's a sample pamphlet. I could improve the writing but eh, it's sufficient.

  7. #207
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    I will join you in your fake quest for fake rights for fake animals!

  8. #208
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    Fake animals are fake people too!

  9. #209
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    You're super welcome. I could use all the help I can get on this character goal, so far there's been general resistance. Dogooders seem to appreciate it, though!

  10. #210

    NIKVMVS-REX-TODOA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn[numbarz] View Post
    Warren Spector just tweeted that he likes our game I'm ded
    Congratulations!


    . V .

  11. #211

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Man, to think that these kinda crappy custom MotS SP levels (pictured: Fort from May 1998, very likely a JKOutpost exclusive) are over 20 years old.

    .. And I'm still not sure if I can't beat this level (for one) because I just haven't figured one crucial thing out in it, or if they're actually just that badly designed. Then again, that level can be "beaten" by exploiting a weird bug which in all likelihood was not intentional.


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  12. #212
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    What's the purpose of this level? Or ones like it? What do you do?

  13. #213

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    These are the your run-of-the-mill "A long time ago, in a galaxy where Kyle Katarn went to an Imperial Base far far away" type of rides.

    This one even has a proto-Lylo Ken in it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    . V .

  14. #214
    wow the likeness is uncanny!
    [01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.

  15. #215
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    Haha, awesome. I wasn't sure if you were saying it was some kind of gimmick level, some kind of challenge/puzzle that needed to be figured out to be beaten.

  16. #216

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    Well, there might be a challenge/puzzle that I haven't figured out in there, because I can't beat that level without exploiting the bug or resorting to the flying cheat code. Namely, you're supposed to get to the center building from those surrounding ledges, but trying to Force Jump there kills you (no Force Speed either). Maybe I'll figure it out 20 years from now.
    Last edited by Nikumubeki; 07-18-2018 at 03:14 PM.


    . V .

  17. #217

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    Whereas with this one (Cultural Center/"Die Hard on Coruscant??"), I'm quite sure I've found all the archi there is, but I just can't seem to get the level to end.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I wonder what was "Coming Soon" at that time. Whatever it was, it's been 20 years already!

    This one's actually available on TACC, and the TACC release date indicates that it's a newer version to the one I have (dating July 5, 1998, probably got it from JKOutpost): https://tacc.massassi.net/levels/description.php?id=96


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  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikumubeki View Post
    These are the your run-of-the-mill "A long time ago, in a galaxy where Kyle Katarn went to an Imperial Base far far away" type of rides.

    This one even has a proto-Lylo Ken in it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    looks very JKEdit

  19. #219

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    https://twitter.com/richgel999

    Ex-Valve employee about his time at Valve. Rambling-like since it's Twitter (and possibly disgruntled) but it's interesting to see some insight into Valve's structure that, for some reason, is held up to a high standard by outsiders.
    Last edited by ECHOMAN; 07-18-2018 at 09:10 PM.
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  20. #220
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    Good exposition. Valves poor working conditions have been a poorly kept secret in the software industry for a while.

  21. #221
    I thought I heard that at Valve you get to do whatever you want....

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    I thought I heard that at Valve you get to do whatever you want....
    You do. This is what that looks like.

  23. #223
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    You have workers who are responsible for determining their own priorities and contributing to the best of their abilities, working for staff managers who have a fiduciary responsibility over hiring, firing, and employee compensation. The chief difference between a self-organizing company and a rigidly structured company is whether management is responsible for communicating their expectations in addition to simply having them.

    Self-organization is ~****in rad~ and I'm a true believer, but, like, the self-organization you want is more like a Republic. Valve is the Somalia of self-organization.

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOMAN View Post
    https://twitter.com/richgel999

    Ex-Valve employee about his time at Valve. Rambling-like since it's Twitter (and possibly disgruntled) but it's interesting to see some insight into Valve's structure that, for some reason, is held up to a high standard by outsiders.
    can't this guy just make a blog post?

  25. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    can't this guy just make a blog post?
    No one reads those.

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    can't this guy just make a blog post?
    Seriously. I was interested in reading his story, but not in that format.

  27. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    can't this guy just make a blog post?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn[numbarz] View Post
    No one reads those.
    Exactly. If it were a blog post, you likely wouldn't be talking about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    Seriously. I was interested in reading his story, but not in that format.
    Here you go:

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...243143173.html

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...409784320.html

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...764916736.html

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...957978112.html

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...967633408.html

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...908925952.html

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...431496192.html

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...802123776.html
    Last edited by Reverend Jones; 07-19-2018 at 12:46 PM.

  28. #228
    Also,

    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    can't this guy just make a blog post?
    Here's the reason.

    OTOH, I'd say Reid's critique applies equally well to a lot of the more microbloggy Massassi posts that somehow end up being posted in somebody's thread.

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    Here you go:
    Thanks.


    I don't know WTF he's talking about, though. I suppose it's due to the nature of the medium (twitter), but it seems like he's ****ing rambling and making **** up as he goes. Or maybe those are just industry specific things that "outsiders" don't understand. I've never worked in software.

  30. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    I remember Jon`C saying that you don't want to work for the kind of employer who wants to look at your Github, because it means they're looking for the kind of worker who would be likely to work enthusiastically without pay. And now this fellow is saying to do just that.

    As a developer you need to cultivate a brand for yourself. Publish, release useful open source libraries, and hobknob+associate with other famous developers. This will help you stand out, get higher salaries, fast-pathed job interviews with no white boarding, etc.
    Red flag?
    Last edited by Reverend Jones; 07-19-2018 at 12:37 PM.

  31. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    Thanks.


    I don't know WTF he's talking about, though. I suppose it's due to the nature of the medium (twitter), but it seems like he's ****ing rambling and making **** up as he goes. Or maybe those are just industry specific things that "outsiders" don't understand. I've never worked in software.
    Part of the problem might be that he basically just tweeted up a massive storm that I am struggling to even scroll down long enough to find the beginning of it all. That, and I left some threads out that were not in a larger thread, in the interest of my sanity.

  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    I remember Jon`C saying that you don't want to work for the kind of employer who wants to look at your Github, because it means they're looking for the kind of worker who would be likely to work enthusiastically without pay. And now this fellow is saying to do just that. Red flag?
    That app is missing important context from this thread - he suggests using open source and hobknobbing to end-run around corporate obstructionists. If you develop a famous popular open source library in your free time, you are more likely to be allowed to use it at work than if you develop it on the clock and then solicit “buy-in” from “stakeholders”.

  33. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post

    He should stick with blog posts. It allows time to put together cohesive thoughts, check grammar, and make a point in a fashion that makes sense.

    I really dislike twitter.

  34. #234
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    Anyway, ****ty medium aside:

    I'm viewing this as an outsider, having never worked in software, and I have a few questions:

    In a self-organization structure, how is accountability and production managed and rewarded/corrected?
    Who is able to make a determination about what is quality work, and what is not?
    How is a worker able to know what is expected of them so they can do well enough to survive the purges?

    [I wonder in which industries this management style works. Self-organized forklift drivers, actuaries, or kindergarten teachers seems like a bad idea.]
    Last edited by Steven; 07-19-2018 at 12:54 PM.

  35. #235
    I dislike the fact that I felt compelled to scroll down his feed and copy-paste the threads into the "thread reader" app I linked to, but it's still not easy to read, and I can't even find the bottom of it.

    What the heck ever happened to collapsable newsgroup threads??

  36. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    [I wonder in which industries this management style works. Self-organized forklift drivers, actuaries, or kindergarten teachers seems like a bad idea.]
    Could be. But to draw upon some outside political insight, it might work if the self-organized workers were all armed (especially the kindergarten teachers).

  37. #237
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    It seems like it would only really work in the quaternary sector (which I posit is just a subset of the tertiary sector).

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    Anyway, ****ty medium aside:

    I'm viewing this as an outsider, having never worked in software, and I have a few questions:

    In a self-organization structure, how is accountability and production managed and rewarded/corrected? Who is able to make a determination about what is quality work, and what is not? How is a worker able to know what is expected of them so they can do well enough to survive the purges?
    Well, first I should say that normally a self-organizing team is just one that selects its own technical leadership structure, rather than having one imposed on them from above. These are teams that receive priorities from management, but otherwise can be left to their own devices in terms of who does the work and how it gets done. Priorities are given at team granularity, and individual productivity is evaluated by discussing team performance with DRs (instead of individual performance).

    This is a thing that’s actually done. What I’d like to see more is getting everyday workers involved in product discussions. At most companies this is the fun part, so the people in the trenches get very little say (even though they’re the people who often know best).

    Valve’s less like any of the above, and more like Somalia. Priorities aren’t explicitly given; instead, strong personalities (warlords) compete for the fealty of other workers. The workers are responsible for guessing what management’s secret unspoken goals are, and helping the warlords whose ideas best fit them. Management has no way of knowing who is doing the best work, so they base all firing and compensation decisions on gossip. The best way to survive is to ingratiate yourself with gaben’s drinking buddies.

    What Valve’s trying to go for is some Ayn Rand **** where ideas compete for finite internal resources, and eventually the resources will get concentrated with the people who have the best ideas, forming some bunch of semi-durable internal companies each delivering finished games. Unfortunately, just like Ayn Rand’s ideas in a broader sense, the outcome isn’t a functional market economy, it’s Somalia.
    Last edited by Jon`C; 07-19-2018 at 01:26 PM.

  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    Priorities are given at team granularity, and individual productivity is evaluated by discussing team performance with DRs (instead of individual performance).
    So it's like those ****ty group projects that lazy teachers like to assign? What happens when someone doesn't pull their weight (for whatever reason) and the whole project sucks?

    As far as the rest goes, that make sense for some industries, as I mentioned above. It seems like many fields have this system in place, though unofficially. Like my pops always said, leaders stand out.

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    [I wonder in which industries this management style works. Self-organized forklift drivers, actuaries, or kindergarten teachers seems like a bad idea.]
    It doesn’t work in any industry. This is why every single Valve game has been an acquisition or a sequel to an acquisition (“I wish I’d worked on the first one”).

    There will never be a Valve * 3. No Episode 3, no Half-Life 3, no L4D3, no Portal 3, no TF3, no DotA3. Their corporate DNA is hard wired against it.

    Self-organizing teams the way most people mean them would work fine in a lot of industries. Forestry, if you’ve got a list of marked trees to cut down and let the workers choose the order and share equipment, you’re basically doing it. Self organization is all about trust and maturity, from both management and subordinates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    Could be. But to draw upon some outside political insight, it might work if the self-organized workers were all armed (especially the kindergarten teachers).
    ”Somalia”

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    It seems like it would only really work in the quaternary sector (which I posit is just a subset of the tertiary sector).
    It wouldn’t, and I’ve worked in sectors 2, 3, and 4 and can tell you flat out that the quaternary sector is very different from tertiary. Completely different business structures and management needs.

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