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  1. #1

    :(

    Quote Originally Posted by David Leonhardt
    It’s hard to imagine a worse distinction for a country to hold. A recent study in the journal Health Affairs concluded that the United States has become “the most dangerous of wealthy nations for a child to be born into.”

    Perhaps most damning, our country didn’t used to hold this status. In the 1960s, the death rate of American children was slightly lower than in other affluent nations. But three factors have changed that:

    1. Other countries have had far more success reducing infant mortality. The reasons aren’t fully known, but the uneven American social safety net seems to play a role.

    2. Other countries have more sharply reduced vehicle deaths, which are a particular scourge for teenagers. (The United States could easily do the same, as I explained in a recent column.)

    3. The United States suffers from an epidemic of shooting deaths, which are nearly nonexistent elsewhere. The gun homicide rate in this country is 49 times higher than in other rich countries, according to the Health Affairs study.

    By now, you’ve probably heard about the at least 17 people, mostly high-school students, murdered in South Florida yesterday. You’ve also probably heard a lot of substance-free condolences. Here’s the truth: The teenagers killed in Florida yesterday had the misfortune of growing up — of trying to grow up — in a country that didn’t care enough about their lives.

    May we honor them with anger that does not cease until the unnecessary deaths of children do.

    https://nytimes.com/2018/02/15/opini...-shooting.html

  2. #2
    Child's Play CharitySon of Krokodile XVI
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    My thoughts and prayers are with the American mental health services. Onto the next one!

  3. #3
    ^^vv<><>BASTART
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    The reasons aren’t fully known
    lol

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    lol
    I hope ready access to guns isn't the cause of the high infant mortality rate

  5. #5
    maybe we should stop using newborns as clay pigeons

  6. #6
    Seeing that the other two reasons for increased child death in the United States are guns and trucks, it's pretty clear to me that we simply need to stop feeding Whoppers to our newborns.

  7. #7
    Admiral of Awesome
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    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #8
    the cause of the high infant morality rate is not being a dark enough shade of blue

  9. #9
    What's not blue enough and sits in the corner

  10. #10
    I regret posting that.

  11. #11
    Admiral of Awesome
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    By the way, Canada's doing a little better than the US but it's still among the worst. So the problem isn't just private healthcare, it's bigger than that. The infant mortality curve is shaped a lot like the child poverty and law enforcement deaths curves, actually.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    What's not blue enough and sits in the corner
    I know I'm going to regret asking this (the answer's probably related to either Trump or redditry), but what does this mean

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikumubeki View Post
    I know I'm going to regret asking this (the answer's probably related to either Trump or redditry), but what does this mean
    Not Trump or Reddit, but elementary school: a variation of #41.

  14. #14
    Whew! I'm glad it was about dead babies instead of Trump or Reddit.

    .

    ..

    ...

    Now that's quite the whirled we/I live in.

  15. #15
    It was considered edgy for 5th grade.

  16. #16
    "Guns aren't bad. They are tools, and can be used for good or bad." Something like this has been posted all over my news feed on facebook from people I knew when I lived in the south. I never really thought about the level of false equivalence people use in their rhetoric to justify their 2nd amendment rights until Wednesday, but for some reason this shooting has really shaken me. I'm glad, because I've just been treating them like natural disasters since I was a kid. The numbers with each one go up or down, but like reading about the deaths from floods or earthquakes in other countries I just thought "Oh, that sucks."

    I guess what bothers me the most is the "us vs them" approach between partisan groups, and that innocent lives being lost to a deranged edge-lord isn't as important as going through the motions of defending precious precious assault weapons. It makes me sick.

  17. #17
    TAKES HINTS JUST FINE, STILL DOESN'T CARE

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom-Seraph View Post
    I guess what bothers me the most is the "us vs them" approach between partisan groups, and that innocent lives being lost to a deranged edge-lord isn't as important as going through the motions of defending precious precious assault weapons.
    One of my biggest peeves is that the "us vs them" mentality has entrenched itself in almost everything that's slightly political these days, with each side going further to the extreme to "counter the extremism of the other side" (I've heard this argument from NRA members who don't agree with the bat**** ideology they push, but still support the group). Let's ignore that a bunch of kids died, because they're comin' to steal our gunz!

    I have a carry permit. I holster a gun every day. However, do I think it should be harder for people to get a gun? Abso-****ing-lutely. Hell, the permit itself I believe was way too easy to get. Our constitution protects the right to arm yourself (argument of milita vs private citizen aside), however it doesn't say that we can't make sure you're not a ****ing nutjob before you're allowed to have one.

    The other thing I wish I would see after one of these god-awful events, is that the actual owners of the weapon be held accountable. It's always "aww, he must've been misunderstood", not "how the **** did he get his hands on an unlocked weapon?" Hell, my wife doesn't know the combo to my lockbox, my daughter sure as hell doesn't.
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  19. #19
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    There's a problem with complaining about "us vs. them" though, as it presumes that both sides really have cogent arguments, and they just need to meet somewhere in the middle.

    It's really possible that one side in a debate can be the wrong side, and in thoses cases compromise is bad.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    There's a problem with complaining about "us vs. them" though, as it presumes that both sides really have cogent arguments, and they just need to meet somewhere in the middle.
    Where did he ever say that?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    Where did he ever say that?
    "presumes"

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    There's a problem with complaining about "us vs. them" though, as it presumes that both sides really have cogent arguments, and they just need to meet somewhere in the middle.

    It's really possible that one side in a debate can be the wrong side, and in thoses cases compromise is bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    Where did he ever say that?
    Yeah. Bob's point was that the us vs them attitude generates even greater disagreement and a tendency towards extremism and away from moderate beliefs. Seeing politics as a zero-sum conflict makes compromise impossible, because when politics has devolved into a zero-sum conflict, neither side will accept compromise under any circumstances. They will only accept their own position. That seems to me like something worth despising about polarization.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    "presumes"
    "Inferred"

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Yeah. Bob's point was that the us vs them attitude generates even greater disagreement and a tendency towards extremism and away from moderate beliefs. Seeing things as a zero-sum conflict makes compromise impossible, because neither side will accept compromise. That seems to me like something worth despising about polarization.
    That's fine when that's actually the case. Maybe I'm just talking about something else then, but there's also plenty of cases where one side is just more moderate and the other side is more extreme.. and more wrong. Which is actually the case on a sizable amount of issues in America.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    That's fine when that's actually the case.
    No, it's not fine. It's really bad!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    No, it's not fine. It's really bad!
    I meant the argument.

  27. #27
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    Calls for "moderation", "bipartisanship", and so forth have benefited the GOP far more than the Democrats as the GOP keeps slamming the political spectrum further to the right.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Calls for "moderation", "bipartisanship", and so forth have benefited the GOP far more than the Democrats as the GOP keeps slamming the political spectrum further to the right.
    The Democrats are moving further to the left too.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    The Democrats are moving further to the left too.
    Both sides were violent.

  30. #30
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    Of course the Democrats have shifted left, but not remotely as far as Republicans have shifted right.

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Maybe I'm just talking about something else then, but there's also plenty of cases where one side is just more moderate and the other side is more extreme.. and more wrong. Which is actually the case on a sizable amount of issues in America.
    Sure. But you're never going to convince people to behave civilly by telling them that you are the moderate one whereas they are extremist.

    From what I gather the real danger here is that the left, in the interest of being civil, ends up moderating its own views to the point of giving up the ship.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    Sure. But you're never going to convince people to behave civilly by telling them that you are the moderate one whereas they are extremist.
    Maybe convincing Republicans isn't necessary. Maybe simply removing them from power is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    From what I gather the real danger here is that the left, in the interest of being civil, ends up moderating its own views to the point of giving up the ship.
    That's exactly my view, that Democrats should have been less interested in negotiating and stood their ground on key issues more. But that's extremism, no?

  33. #33
    I took Bob's comment to be about attitudes toward the opposing side, regardless of where you may have started out on some ideological scale. An "us vs. them" attitude is always toxic for discourse, no matter the side.

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Of course the Democrats have shifted left, but not remotely as far as Republicans have shifted right.
    I don't know what this even means. You think Republicans are even more entrenched in their views than Democrats are? Or that they have more quickly adopted more radical views than the Democrats have? Or neither, but that, by being obstructionist, Republicans are uniquely responsible for making governance impossible? Because none of those things seem true. If it were still 2016, I might have agreed with the latter, but now that the Democrats are in the opposition, it seems like, if given enough time, they'd be just as obstructionist as Republicans were during the Obama administration, and refuse to hear a Trump appointee to the Supreme Court, or shutdown the government (oh yeah...).
    Last edited by Eversor; 02-17-2018 at 08:27 AM.

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Maybe convincing Republicans isn't necessary. Maybe simply removing them from power is.
    One party rule!!

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    From what I gather the real danger here is that the left, in the interest of being civil, ends up moderating its own views to the point of giving up the ship.
    Is there any issue where you see this happening?

  37. #37
    I can't say that I've seen too many liberal takes saying "you know what guys, this brutal massacre at a Florida high school was bad, but I think for the sake of the country, we might have to learn to live with the NRA."

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Is there any issue where you see this happening?
    It's certainly not happening now, lol. And the left doesn't even need to try to be civil toward Trump anyway, since he assumes the worst of his opponents by default and shoves it in their face. Man this guy must be great at making deals.

    I think many Democrats were sorry they were too trusting of George W. Bush when a lot of the arguments that they do so in the name book patriotism turned out to be based on lies, although I wasn't following politics too closely at the time.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    One party rule!!
    More like anti-gerrymandering, anti-voter suppression, and anti-disinformation/Citizen's United/slush fund money.

    But yes thanks for the comparisons to totalitarian states. Apparently pointing out that Republicans are the biggest political problem in America makes you a Stalinist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    I can't say that I've seen too many liberal takes saying "you know what guys, this brutal massacre at a Florida high school was bad, but I think for the sake of the country, we might have to learn to live with the NRA."
    There are plenty of Americans with strong opinions, but those opinions aren't always reflected by congress. When I'm talking about the extremeness, I'm definitely talking about congress.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    I took Bob's comment to be about attitudes toward the opposing side, regardless of where you may have started out on some ideological scale. An "us vs. them" attitude is always toxic for discourse, no matter the side.
    So pointing out the ongoing class war in America is toxic because it pits people against each other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    I don't know what this even means. You think Republicans are even more entrenched in their views than Democrats are?
    I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Or that they have more quickly adopted more radical views than the Democrats have?
    Easily yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eversor View Post
    Or neither, but that, by being obstructionist, Republicans are uniquely responsible for making governance impossible? Because none of those things seem true. If it were still 2016, I might have agreed with the latter, but now that the Democrats are in the opposition, it seems like, if given enough time, they'd be just as obstructionist as Republicans were during the Obama administration, and refuse to hear a Trump appointee to the Supreme Court, or shutdown the government (oh yeah...).
    So, uh, your view is a hypothetical based on what you think will happen?

    Okay..

    It's not about whether governance is possible with Republicans, it's about how they're governing.

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