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Thread: Are the Jedi bad?

  1. #81
    Admiral of Awesome
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    18,122
    TL;DR, but for what itís worth, I do think Lucas intended for there to be some amount of ambiguity here. Star Wars under Lucas wasnít really cut and dried good vs evil, it was much more about whether the ends justify the means.

    For example, the OFP encountered the YV. If you wanted to build a weapon to defend against a galaxy sized invasion force operating from planet-sized warships, what would it look like? If you wanted to rapidly militarize, what better way than to make a country arm against itself? This was actually very smart worldbuilding because itís exactly how the United States became a military power. Before the Civil War it wasnít. Not even close.

    Now, Palestineís calculus is that all of the people he killed and brutally suppressed would have eventually died anyway, had he not seized power. So the question is whether the ends justified the means: the rebels fought for freedom and the eventual invasion killed like trillions of people. The Empire destroyed one planet and might have been able to handily repel the invasion entirely.

  2. #82
    I really want to understand that post, but I simply cannot figure out what OFP and YV are.

  3. #83
    There's a theory that the Deathstar was created to defend against the Yitzen Von, or whatever they were called. I always thought it was silly. Don't know what OFP is unless I'm completely wrong and he's referring to something else.

  4. #84
    Outbound Flight Project
    Yuuzhan Vong

    (apparently)

  5. #85
    I'm confused though, did GL have anything to do with this Timothy Zahn novel? Or anything in the EU for that matter?

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    TL;DR, but for what it’s worth, I do think Lucas intended for there to be some amount of ambiguity here. Star Wars under Lucas wasn’t really cut and dried good vs evil, it was much more about whether the ends justify the means.

    For example, the OFP encountered the YV. If you wanted to build a weapon to defend against a galaxy sized invasion force operating from planet-sized warships, what would it look like? If you wanted to rapidly militarize, what better way than to make a country arm against itself? This was actually very smart worldbuilding because it’s exactly how the United States became a military power. Before the Civil War it wasn’t. Not even close.

    Now, Palestine’s calculus is that all of the people he killed and brutally suppressed would have eventually died anyway, had he not seized power. So the question is whether the ends justified the means: the rebels fought for freedom and the eventual invasion killed like trillions of people. The Empire destroyed one planet and might have been able to handily repel the invasion entirely.
    Just the same calculus behind dropping the atomic bomb on Japan.

  7. #87
    ^^vv<><>BASTART
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    Was the EU good? I assume many people here really enjoyed it, seeing as what forum we are on. I read a few Zahn books but I can't recall so much now, and I never got much into that world very deeply.

  8. #88
    (banned)

  9. #89
    Was enjoyable for me through the mid nineties. Couldn't keep up past that.

  10. #90
    Admiral of Awesome
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    EU was good until NJO/prequel novels.

  11. #91
    I was wondering a few minutes ago you know, rather than sleeping, what period new (canon) EU mostly takes place in.

  12. #92
    Admiral of Awesome
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    If a novel gets written but nobody reads it, is it canon?

  13. #93
    Have novel sales tanked for the EU? Would make sense.

  14. #94
    Admiral of Awesome
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    Star Wars novel generator.

    Team
    Han and Luke
    Han and Leia
    The Solo kids
    Wedge Antilles
    Luke
    Lando and his swagger

    with backup from
    R2-D2 and C-3PO
    Chewbacca
    some disposable pilots
    some disposable jedi recruit

    must
    investigate potential Jedi recruit
    cure deadly plague
    destroy superweapon
    stop invasion

    that turns out to be controlled by
    the empire
    the hutts
    some cult
    a warlike, xenophobic species the empire kept secret

    with unexpected help from
    a mysterious temptress

    and achieves victory at the cost of
    a bit character's life
    a major character's life
    the reader's patience

  15. #95
    Admiral of Awesome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wookie06 View Post
    Have novel sales tanked for the EU? Would make sense.
    Dunno. Star Wars toys fell 13% against 1% toy industry growth in FY2017 (end Sept 30) - not factoring in licensed merchandise growth as a percentage of the industry, which hit something like 38% last year. All included it's a pretty devastating drop. FY numbers won't come out until the end of next month but the rumor I've heard is that they're even worse than 2017, despite releasing two movies (and an absolute heap of tie in merchandise) during this FY.

    It's not like they've been asteroided like a dinosaur or something. 86% of a lot of money is still a lot of money. But it's a really bad trendline.

    It's safe to assume SW novels are in a similar position. However, I'd guess they're actually much worse off. I doubt they ever recovered after NJO drove off almost everybody who read them.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    Star Wars novel generator.

    Team
    Han and Luke
    Han and Leia
    The Solo kids
    Wedge Antilles
    Luke
    Lando and his swagger

    with backup from
    R2-D2 and C-3PO
    Chewbacca
    some disposable pilots
    some disposable jedi recruit

    must
    investigate potential Jedi recruit
    cure deadly plague
    destroy superweapon
    stop invasion

    that turns out to be controlled by
    the empire
    the hutts
    some cult
    a warlike, xenophobic species the empire kept secret

    with unexpected help from
    a mysterious temptress

    and achieves victory at the cost of
    a bit character's life
    a major character's life
    the reader's patience
    heh, I think Kevin J. Anderson wrote a book about all of those (which I probably read as an adolescent)

  17. #97
    Admiral of Awesome
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    18,122
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    heh, I think Kevin J. Anderson wrote a book about all of those (which I probably read as an adolescent)
    Pigeonhole principle. Assuming he can only write about each combination once.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    heh, I think Kevin J. Anderson wrote a book about all of those (which I probably read as an adolescent)
    Donít even talk to me about KJA. That **** ruined the Dune series, and continues to run it into the ground with Brian Herbert! Iíll admit, I was taken at first by its easy thrills and pulp fiction-esk story telling. After reading and on pondering the books Iíve come to the conclusion that they have cheapened a lot of the work put down by Frank...

    I hope that Dune movie is good. I know Dennis is doing it and no, I have not seen the new blade runner yet. I know he did that and is doing Dune, but I canít judge him doing Dune till I see blade runner.

    Iíve been avoiding the blade runner thread until I see it. God I really need to see it. I love the first one so much.

  19. #99
    Hey, I finally checked that thing out from the library (Blade Runner 2049, that is). I think I'll watch it tomorrow night.

    Also, I am going to take this moment to publicly shame Eversor for having never finished the original Blade Runner

  20. #100
    Also, on the topic of KJA, I liked his books. But that's because I was 12.

  21. #101
    KJA made me actually like the NJO. It was sooooo much better than the drivel we had until then.
    Sorry for the lousy German

  22. #102
    Wait, did KJA even write those books? Wikipedia says no.

  23. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    -publicly shame Eversor for having never finished the original Blade Runner
    Wtf! Shame!!!

    ďAttack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhšuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.Ē

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    Also, on the topic of KJA, I liked his books. But that's because I was 12.
    Donít mistake me, Iím not finding fault. I was 20 when I read The Butlerian Jihad and I still enjoyed it. I still blame him (partly) for diluting the franchise.

  24. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Impi View Post
    KJA made me actually like the NJO. It was sooooo much better than the drivel we had until then.
    You tool! That was Troy Denning!

  25. #105
    I read the Jedi Academy trilogy when it came out. I remember liking it.
    "I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16


  26. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Jones View Post
    Wait, did KJA even write those books? Wikipedia says no.
    That's the point. KJA (and his wife) had put out so much crap and most other EU books at the time were similar. So it was a big relieve when the NJO came out with a new exciting storyline full of badassery and without any Anderson.
    Sorry for the lousy German

  27. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Wookie06 View Post
    I read the Jedi Academy trilogy when it came out. I remember liking it.
    I remember that some plot points made more sense, when I re-read them through Stackpole's I, Jedi.
    Sorry for the lousy German

  28. #108
    But the absolute worst was Barabara Hambley. At the time I would read and play everything with Star Wars in its name. But I absolutely refused to read her second book. I was starting to read the novels in English, as well, because the German translations took too long. And sometimes I thought that I couldn't understand some of her passages because my English wasn't good enough. Problem was that I hadn't read them in English.
    Sorry for the lousy German

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