Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: Why do all electric vehicles have to track everything?

  1. #1
    Administrator
    Posts
    7,553

    Why do all electric vehicles have to track everything?

    https://krebsonsecurity.com/2020/02/...le-too-mobile/

    I've been really interested in electric vehicles, mostly because I like the power and capabilities. But it seems like manufacturers have used the transition to electric to force unrelated, undesirable changes on the car-buying public. Things like forced location tracking, forced telemetry sharing (speed, acceleration, braking, steering events, heater/ac control events, touch screen interactions, etc.), over-the-air updates, remote control capabilities (lock, unlock, disable), etc. All of these are not only severe security issues, but even if they could harden them 100%, I'm still not comfortable sharing all this information with anybody, including the car manufacturer. Even if they "promise" not to share it.

    Is there an electric vehicle manufacturer that won't do this? I don't want my car to have a wifi or cell radio at all. Just leave me alone! If I want a software update I should be able to do it over USB or just drop by the dealer or something.

    Just note that I am also uncomfortable with the amount of info sent from my cell phone to the manufacturer (apple in this case) and I don't care how much they "promise" my info is private -- once it leaves my possession, it's no longer private.

    WA is trying to replace the (really high) gas tax with "pay-per-mile" tax, and oh-by-the-way that means you have to install a tracker in your car so they can know how many miles you have travelled. I'm sure in addition to tracking miles it will also track everywhere you've been, how fast you go, how hard you brake, etc., and that information will be sucked up into some government database that will be "shared" (read: sold) with whoever wants it.

    Did you know public schools (at least around here) share their student lists with whoever wants them? Including name, address, phone number, and what classes they take?

    All of this is so wrong and I don't know how people put up with it. The school was very miffed when I pushed back on this (you know, actually read the fine print) and prohibited them from sharing my son's information. They were so surprised that I didn't want his photo and other information showing up on "social media" sites. They even tried to guilt me into agreeing because "he won't be able to be in the yearbook!" After contacting the administration I was able to allow him to show up in the yearbook but still not share on facebook or whatever, but they refused to allow me to remove his information from the lists that they "share" out to everyone.

    ...

    That went a different direction than I intended, but whatever. Rant over for now.

  2. #2
    Admiral of Awesome
    Posts
    18,453
    Because capital is its own gravedigger.

  3. #3
    Administrator
    Posts
    7,553
    I don't follow, what do you think the endgame is? We're just going to be tracked by everything forever or at some point people will get frustrated and be able to do something about it?

  4. #4

  5. #5
    ALL GLORY TO THE CONTEST WINNER

    Posts
    17,947
    Can you imagine being subjected to a conversation with the type of person that would electrify a volkswagen and not wanting to hang yourself halfway through?

  6. #6
    Likes Kittens. Eats Fluffies
    Posts
    12,183
    Careful, BF, you're in a conversation with that type of person right now!

  7. #7
    Admiral of Awesome
    Posts
    18,453
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    I don't follow, what do you think the endgame is? We're just going to be tracked by everything forever or at some point people will get frustrated and be able to do something about it?
    There is no market mechanism to prevent consumer surveillance. As long as there is someone willing to pay something for the data, and as long as goods manufacturers are capable of providing the data, it will be collected and sold. This grows increasingly true the more goods are subject to commodity pricing, where incorporation of third party surveillance IP (like OnStar and ACR) directly fuels price competition and quickly forces all manufacturers onboard.

    Also, none of this stuff is new. It's just more widespread today because there is better technology and more opportunities to collect the data. Even vehicle telemetry and remote control isn't new (or limited to electric cars; it has been all cars for quite a while, they've just done a better job keeping it quiet). On the government side, for example, the US government (via Equifax) has been selling selective service data for decades.

    So, I dunno. What's the endgame? Does there ever need to be an endgame? This won't stop until there is comprehensive legislation with extreme penalties to prohibit it.

  8. #8
    ALL GLORY TO THE CONTEST WINNER

    Posts
    17,947
    Quote Originally Posted by saberopus View Post
    Careful, BF, you're in a conversation with that type of person right now!
    It's ok, I already felt like hanging myself.

    Also, Brian since you mention tracking miles I'm assuming wherever you live doesn't have any sort of roadworthiness checks for vehicles?

  9. #9
    Administrator
    Posts
    7,553
    No, there is no check like that. If they wanted to see the number of miles my car has driven, that would be fine, but that's not what they are asking for. They want a GPS tracking device installed in your car that uploads of your data whenever it feels like. They equate "tax per mile" with "must have this device in your car" which is a problem. I'm guessing they don't trust people to not mess with their odometers to save $ on tax (but we are expected to trust them with all our data).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by saberopus View Post
    Careful, BF, you're in a conversation with that type of person right now!
    Its a Cadillac not a VW I'm not ****ing Ted Bundy
    Epstein didn't kill himself.

  11. #11
    Admiral of Awesome
    Posts
    18,453
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    No, there is no check like that. If they wanted to see the number of miles my car has driven, that would be fine, but that's not what they are asking for. They want a GPS tracking device installed in your car that uploads of your data whenever it feels like. They equate "tax per mile" with "must have this device in your car" which is a problem. I'm guessing they don't trust people to not mess with their odometers to save $ on tax (but we are expected to trust them with all our data).
    Probably they decided they needed to switch to a mileage tax for good reasons, then instead of doing something smart like a simple odometer inspection when you renew your registration, they had to drag the private sector into it. Now they’re partnered with some anonymous private tax collector that agreed to supply the equipment for cheap in exchange for harvesting data on the side.

    Your driving data is definitely being collected for a pitch to state law enforcement to automatically ticket speeding and stunting. Expect that within a couple of years. You can also expect your driving data to be sold to your health and car insurance companies.

  12. #12
    Admiral of Awesome
    Posts
    18,453
    Oh, and if it is like any other public-private partnership, the state is paying for the equipment anyway (really you, because you drive a car there). Public private partnerships are really off-the-books government loans that replace debt payments with availability fees, usually at a high premium compared to what above-board state or municipal bonds would cost.

    Absolutely nothing good comes where the private and public sectors meet.

    This is all just speculation, o don’t know anything about this program but I’d bet good money that im right on all counts.

  13. #13
    Unwitting troll accomplice
    Posts
    8,248
    Private action generally, in the form of private actors handing over data (evidence) to the government, is a handy end-run around the Fourth Amendment. And when the companies collecting the data are also regularly seeking government contracts, well,
    If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.

  14. #14
    ALL GLORY TO THE CONTEST WINNER

    Posts
    17,947
    Now I'm wondering what exactly the good reasons for a mileage tax would be in a country rife with ancient cars with ****ty fuel economy?

  15. #15
    Taxes should be for raising revenue but in practice they're weapons.
    "I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16


  16. #16
    Admiral of Awesome
    Posts
    18,453
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconfish View Post
    Now I'm wondering what exactly the good reasons for a mileage tax would be in a country rife with ancient cars with ****ty fuel economy?
    Ah, you just be unfamiliar with the American tradition of earmarking.

  17. #17
    Admiral of Awesome
    Posts
    18,453
    American governments get social license for raising revenue by pretending money isn’t fungible. So it’s not really a gas tax, like it’s not a pigovian tax or straight revenue or anything like that; it’s a “road improvement tax”. So it’s not fair that the people who drive electric cars don’t have to pay it. You have to reform the road improvement tax to make sure electric car drivers pay it too, even though that’s the absolute last thing you should be doing.

    What’s crazy, though, is sometimes those governments actually mean it. They don’t add it to general revenue, the road budget = the tax, period.

  18. #18
    ALL GLORY TO THE CONTEST WINNER

    Posts
    17,947
    They're actually planning on earmarking vehicle excise duty here from this year onward, which is something they stopped doing back in the 30s. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

    Anyway it's based on your vehicle's level of emissions, which seems more sensible to me.

  19. #19
    Admiral of Awesome
    Posts
    18,453
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconfish View Post
    They're actually planning on earmarking vehicle excise duty here from this year onward, which is something they stopped doing back in the 30s. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

    Anyway it's based on your vehicle's level of emissions, which seems more sensible to me.
    not the first thing the tories brought back from the 1930s, won't be the last.

  20. #20
    ^^vv<><>BASTART
    Posts
    8,986
    Short answer: they profit from it and they have zero compelling reason not to.

  21. #21
    ^^vv<><>BASTART
    Posts
    8,986
    Quote Originally Posted by Wookie06 View Post
    Taxes should be for raising revenue but in practice they're weapons.
    I was walking home one day, minding my own business, and out of the bushes came a thug brandishing a 5% sales tax. I begged him to stop but he looked at my receipt, saw I owed $4.87 for the day and gave me a bill. Damn thugs and their taxes.

  22. #22
    Admiral of Awesome
    Posts
    18,453
    Taxes are weapons in the sense that they’re a way for rich people to force the middle class to pay for the infrastructure and institutions that make their wealth possible. Especially with the “reform” measures they’re trying to trick you into wanting, like flat taxes, replacing income taxes with consumption taxes (you will pay a higher %), closing loopholes (your personal deductions, not their business ones), expanding usage fees (just another consumption tax) and so on.

    Although I know you didn’t mean it in that sense.

  23. #23
    ^^vv<><>BASTART
    Posts
    8,986
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    Taxes are weapons in the sense that they’re a way for rich people to force the middle class to pay for the infrastructure and institutions that make their wealth possible. Especially with the “reform” measures they’re trying to trick you into wanting, like flat taxes, replacing income taxes with consumption taxes (you will pay a higher %), closing loopholes (your personal deductions, not their business ones), expanding usage fees (just another consumption tax) and so on.

    Although I know you didn’t mean it in that sense.
    They're certainly weapons of warfare.. class warfare.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •