omg dude a topic at masassi turned serios...FINIALLY THERE IS HOPE FOR MANKIND AGAIN!

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janitor bobs idea of rogers video: He's actually the overweight guy next door who has a HUGE selection of videos, including the entire Lethal Weapon, Halloween, and 'Ernest' series.
The advantage is is that you can 'borrow' movies for long amounts of time without him remembering that you borrowed them.

The disadvantage is the pizza cheese grime on the DVDs

I find it's always a good idea to learn some things about a specific subject before launching into a lengthy diatribe about it. But that's just me...

Osama Bin Evad: The information about the hellish atrocities of Lil' Kim's regime have been making the rounds since long before 911(noone ever debunks it, either). And The Guardian is definatly the first place a Bush-inspired propaganda campaign would be launched from.

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MotS Single Player:
Strike Force!
The Continuing Adventures of Mara Jade

I think you missed the part where I was pissed that a person, or organization, was doing it.

Bacteria and viruses, malnutrition, etc, these are all problems that cannot be solved, but we can make them better with donations to charitable groups. Which I fully intend to do when I have any income at all.

Yeah, that's a shame, but it's not a ridiculously huge violation of human rights. It's life. There's a sizable difference between the atrocities people commit against people and the atrocities nature commits against people.

Next time, try finding a comparable thing to argue about.

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Ω of 14

"Evil truly triumphs when good men do nothing."


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"In the memory you'll find me. Eyes burning up.
The darkness holding me tightly.
Untill the sun rises up."

I'm so glad you didn't pay attention to what he said.


"Maybe you missed the whole "lots of other countries" part."

^ Do you see anywhere in that "Not russia or china!"?

If you do, please tell me.


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"In the memory you'll find me. Eyes burning up.
The darkness holding me tightly.
Untill the sun rises up."

I was bored.

Keep practicing, Elana.



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"In the memory you'll find me. Eyes burning up.
The darkness holding me tightly.
Untill the sun rises up."

Now now, lets not play the blame game. Noone made it into a debate, it just happened. lets move on and be friends.


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"In the memory you'll find me. Eyes burning up.
The darkness holding me tightly.
Untill the sun rises up."

[This message has been edited by Oberfeldwebell (edited February 08, 2004).]

But then people will moan at us for being a bunch of heartless cruel evil people for not helping the poor defenceless rebels in their time of need.


Damned if we do, damned if we don't.



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"In the memory you'll find me. Eyes burning up.
The darkness holding me tightly.
Untill the sun rises up."

And I'd rather we be damned if we do.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

[sneeze] AFGHANISTAN.[/sneeze]

'scuse me.

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"In the memory you'll find me. Eyes burning up.
The darkness holding me tightly.
Untill the sun rises up."

For the love of God, address people using one post.

Wolfy: When has the US ever successfully liberated a country? When has our military ever granted a nation political freedom for x number of years? We screwed up Afghanistan and Iraq, so why do you think North Korea would be any different?

oS: Inconsistancies, ahoy. The government doesn't have an obligation to provide humanitarian aid, but does have an obligation to remove dicators for purely humanitarian reasons? What twisted contortions did you go through to reach that conclusion? Yeah. The latter are cheaper and easier to remedy. If the US is in the business of saving lives, it's clear where its resources should be expended.

And starving to death is as much a violation of your human rights as political oppression.

There is one thing missing in your analysis:

Time

North Korea hasn't had all diplomatic options exhausted yet. Unfortunately for Iraq, they have. 12 years, and despite what some in this thread have said, they were still giving U.N. inspectors the run-around, and telling them where they could and could not go. That's the one thing that bothers me about the Iraq situation and WMD's - why the run-around for over a decade if you had nothing to hide? It just doesn't sit right with me.

Anyway, back to my point, until recently, North Korea has been fairly compliant with the U.N. However, in recent history, the U.N. has again shown it is weak - North Korea acts up, U.N. says settle down, North Korea demands concessions on U.N. restrictions, U.N. gives in and says ok, and North Korea pipes down until its time for another outburst.

Even so, it shows some concession, until Kim recently decided they were going to get Nukes, and the hell with everyone else. Thus, there is some room for diplomatic negotiation, which is what people who say "why aren't they taking the same approach with South Korea as they did with Iraq?" fail to realize. They fail to realize that diplomacy was tried for a long time in Iraq, and conversely, that it has not been tried as much in North Korea, until the recent 'nuclear' events. It's like trying to open different doors with the same key, and wondering why your key only works with one door - and expecting it to work with all the others, when all the key was meant to open is that one door.

And FYI - I am surprised no one has noticed that Axis is trolling here - check his name, and brush up on WWII history, and then check what he is spouting. I would have thought it would be fairly obvious by now.

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*Joren, Legend, Alleged Egomaniac, Thread-Killer, 2-time Ban Recipient, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

I don't get it. Osama Bin Evad? :/
Funny. Sounds like Bush in a way. If you don't support us you are against us.
Yeah. That's right. I disagree with what you are doing so I'm glad some jackass flew a plane into the WTC.
What Lil' Kim is doing has been around for a long time, I know, but no one seems to care. Especially the media. If they cared people would be informed of what goes on in the world and then more people might care.
So the question remains; Why does the US only choose an oil rich country with great pontential for financial gain to free? If the US truely cared about it's own safety and the safety of the worlds oppressed citizens, why does it not take down the regimes of so many other killers?
Answer; Because it doesn't care about those people (and that is very obvious to anyone who can see it). This leads me to a logical conclusion that the US will conquer a country for financial gain (among other possible reasons like 'he tried to kill my dad').
So why does it use freedom of citizens as an excuse for it's actions? To appease the sheep who believe what they are told? Who knows? It seems logical if the US were actually concerned about it's own safety and then the safety of the worlds oppressed citizens, it would go after North Korea next. If the US does go after North Korea next, it would lend credence to it's sincerity of it's care for oppressed people. And that would make me happy.

And I've never heard of The Guardian before. :/

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.


[This message has been edited by Darth Evad (edited February 09, 2004).]

very serious stiff-upper-lip british newspaper... this is all interesting stuff.... i can't remember who made the point, but i believe that nobody should take any action in north korea at all.... not until evens unfold further and the situation is less vague.

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Drugs & Stupidity, Tons of it.

Iraq and Afghanistan are works-in-progress. If you really think that overthrowing regimes like Saddam and the Taliban are overnight processes, your attachment to reality is obviously quite dangerously close to being severed.

As for countries we've rebuilt...well, France? Britain? Imagine what kind of state they'd be in if America had not erased their war debts from WWI. Germany? Imagine where they'd be if France, Britain, and America hadn't rebuilt Western Germany? East Germany, yes, still suffers from economical problems, but, again, processes like these are not overnight. Japan? If we hadn't rebuilt that country, what kind of state would they be in today?

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

[This message has been edited by Wolfy (edited February 09, 2004).]

Billions of dollars are spent each year on food and medical supplies for the hungry, but it has yet to make a dent in the problem. If hunger were easier to fix, as you claim, wouldn't it be fixed, even in the least?

The problem is that in order to actually solve hunger, you have to show the people how to be self-sufficient and that's not how humanitarian aid works.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Japan, in 7 years.

Don't they teach kids history anymore?

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*Joren, Legend, Alleged Egomaniac, Thread-Killer, 2-time Ban Recipient, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

If you read the "Nerds" thread, Joren, apparently not.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

Heh, I guess you are right Wolfy.

That, or the kids are the spitting, rebellious image of their parents, not giving a crap and content with being stupid and acting out. Damn the 60's...

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*Joren, Legend, Alleged Egomaniac, Thread-Killer, 2-time Ban Recipient, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

If you're going to correct someone's spelling and/or grammar, at least learn the basics of English first.

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To be, or not to be. That is the question. Or then not. --FastGamerr/Nikumubeki

No. Iraq met every demand the weapons inspectors made before the invasion, including unrestricted searches of any place in the nation. We've covered this before. Feel free to make specific claims backed up by documentation: I can guarantee a quick and easy refutation.

Wolfy: I asked for examples of when our military has granted political freedom to a nation: all of your examples, including Japan, already had largely democratic Western-style governments. To my knowledge, and apparently yours, the US has never successfully changed a country's style of government.

Avenger: For the last time, I never claimed we could 'fix' the problem, just that it would cost less to feed and educate a dozen starving Indians than prevent a North Korean from dying in the camps.

The run arounds were all over the news. Where are your links that show that they had unrestricted access? And do please try to make them unbiased.. sorry, but if you point to some liberal or libertarian rag sheet, I will have a difficult time believing you.

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*Joren, Legend, Alleged Egomaniac, Thread-Killer, 2-time Ban Recipient, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

Joren is right on that one. The run arounds WERE all over the news.

except in what I was thinking is that our soldier would see a lot less fighting. We would essentially be fighting through the rebels. Using them, if you will. I know someone will say "Oh, so you would just let them die instead of our soldier?" Well, yeah. But if our soldiers do what they are supposed to, the rebels will still have less deaths than if they didn't have our support.

That is very assumptous. We haven't set up a government in either Afghan or Iraq. But yes, the US doesn't have a very good track record.

yeah, especially those who are politically oppressing you are also keeping the food from you

That's all pre-Cold War. Try telling the people of Chile, Iran, Guatemala, Nicuraga, the Phillipenes, Indonesia, Panama, and Taiwan that the US has good judgement and planning skills when it comes to foreign governments.

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"What I find especially funny are the neo-Celtic religions based on accounts made by the Romans. It's like learning about Judaism from Nazi lore." --stat

Oh. My. God. Have you been high since the 90's?

No, Japan had a dictating militarism before and during WWII.
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"What I find especially funny are the neo-Celtic religions based on accounts made by the Romans. It's like learning about Judaism from Nazi lore." --stat

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited February 09, 2004).]

I never said we had a prefect track record. He asked me to cite examples, and, although looking back I see now he asked for examples of military involvement (thus voiding France and Britain), if you're going to tell me that the military had absolutely no involvement in keeping the Soviets from taking West Berlin...

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

Joren: Then it shouldn't be difficult for you to do what I asked, should it? Find a demand the inspectors made that wasn't satisfied before this war.

Morf: Where are your pom-poms?

Kieran: No. With any luck, Joren and Wolfy will back me up with their extensive knowledge of history their public schools provided them with. For now, you might consider reading about the Meiji Restoration. Japan had a democratic government and a Western style constitution by 1890, which remained stable until the 1930s when the military took control.

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited February 09, 2004).]

So...the Emperor was elected?

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

Wolfy: The Emperor was a figurehead. The real power was held first by a ruling group of nobles and then parliament.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/11/25/iraq.inspectors/





http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9802/04/iraq.proposal/



http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9711/04/iraq.un/

HeadlineIraq bars more U.S. weapons inspectors





http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9603/un_iraq/11/



Do you want more? I can go on all day. Oh, and by the way, congrats on being 'pantsed'.


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*Joren, Legend, Alleged Egomaniac, Thread-Killer, 2-time Ban Recipient, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

That's irrelevant. We did overthrow a government and replace it with a democratic institution.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

that last was refering to Ictus's demands for proof, btw.

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*Joren, Legend, Alleged Egomaniac, Thread-Killer, 2-time Ban Recipient, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

Boo-hoo. If you don't like people stating their opinion then go back in time to Nazi-Germany or another brutal dictatorship.

Learn some manners.

[This message has been edited by Morfildor (edited February 09, 2004).]

And that would be called militarism. Though you make a point.

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"What I find especially funny are the neo-Celtic religions based on accounts made by the Romans. It's like learning about Judaism from Nazi lore." --stat

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited February 09, 2004).]

Canada's media hasn't been paying attention to it. America's media(on both sides of the aisle) certainly has been for years. Don't forget, North Korea has officially been at war with the US since the 50's! A situation we've never wanted to continue.

The Guardian is, surprisingly, the source of the article that started this thread. It's very well known for it's left-leaning stances. hardly a hotbed of hot lovin' for the Bush Administration.

Ictus, you've been officially owned on the inspections issue. You chided others for getting thier facts from 'grade school'. I watched this wretched drama unfold on the nightly news throughout the 90's. Where the hell are you getting these 'facts' of yours?

Some of you guys really need to brush up on WWII before citing aspects of it in your arguments - and read 1984!



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MotS Single Player:
Strike Force!
The Continuing Adventures of Mara Jade

[This message has been edited by Rhettman (edited February 09, 2004).]

Joren: Um, all but one of your articles are more than five years old. I was hoping for something a little more recent. And the first quote from your first article is self-defeating: Since Iraq didn't have WMDs, I'd say they're pretty much blameless here.

Nevertheless:
Unrestricted searches
ABC News

Pravda

CNN


And a couple more common objections, for good measure.

Private interviews with Iraqi scientists
ABC News


US spy planes over Iraq's territory
Herald Sun


Morf: Lighten up.

Note also that the only complaints Blix ever made before the Security Council were remedied within weeks and Iraq was never declared to be in material breach of its obligations.

Throughout the 90's, Richard Butler's UNSCOM teams were continually, persistently, and categorically denied any access to several major locations in Iraq.
This culminated with the UN withdrawing UNSCOM due to constant denial by Saddam's people(and not because of a clean bill of health, mind you), and the subsequent launching of Operation Desert Fox by Clinton in Feb. '98. He was accused of 'Wagging the Dog', and people asked "Why now?" Why indeed...

I'm sorry, but those links from 5 years ago are very relevant.

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MotS Single Player:
Strike Force!
The Continuing Adventures of Mara Jade

So, because it happened five years ago, you can just sweep it under the rug? Regardless of what happened within the last several years, Iraq was continually violating UN resolutions in the late 90s.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.