I was wondering what you people thought of Jesus historically. I was wondering also if people could post some stuff about Jesus historically, not biblically. I think that Jesus was a good and very smart man. He tried to spread a message of love and joy, and he gets killed for it. That sucks.

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I’m not going to die, I’m going to see if I was ever alive. - Spike
It's not your right to decide whether they live or die. They deserve a chance! - Vash
BABIES EVERYWHERE!!!

ummm...duh? thats pretty much the same as the religious jesus...

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No I mean, not like He is the son of god, he died and came back from the dead etc. I mean what is history's point and view on Jesus? Takeing NONE of the church stuff into account.

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I’m not going to die, I’m going to see if I was ever alive. - Spike
It's not your right to decide whether they live or die. They deserve a chance! - Vash
BABIES EVERYWHERE!!!

Well, as the Bible is the only reputable primary source that even reports the existance of Jesus, such a thing is hard to discuss.

I recall there was a book published that attempted to disprove the existance of a historical Jesus .. forgot the name =/ The Jesus Code, or something?

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[1337 FRNDS_Pommy | 3.14 of 14 | » And-GTx2]
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Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Umm... There's no real doubt about the EXISTENCE of Jesus, most secular scholars agree.

And I don't think he's a very good Teacher if he claimed to be the Son of God. That's pretty hypocritical, chiding people for lying and then lying himself.

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"Your entire base belongs to us."
"It would be highly appreciated if someone would set the bomb up for us"
"Launch all of our ships, christened 'Zigs', to insure that justice will be achieved swiftly and powerfully."

/me taps his fingers on a copy of Josephus

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"Why aren't I'm using at these pictures?" - Cloud, 4/14/02

that's from a person that doesn't believe he's the son of god. if he's telling the truth, then there is nothing wrong with what he teaches.

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[This message has been edited by Noble Outlaw (edited March 09, 2004).]

Atleast he kept with the theme of historical

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I’m not going to die, I’m going to see if I was ever alive. - Spike
It's not your right to decide whether they live or die. They deserve a chance! - Vash
BABIES EVERYWHERE!!!

Ouch. Stay away from this post, people. It's on fire!


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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
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Pommy hit the nail on the head. The only significant source we have about Jesus is the bible.

Probably the closest thing to what you want is a story in Popular Mechanics a while back. Here's a link. http://popularmechanics.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=20&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME=MssFind%2Ecfg&host_id=42&page_id=6039808&query=jesus&hiword=JESUSS+jesus+
They show a concept of what Jesus probably looked like. It's way different from what's been used in the US and Europe (no surprise), but I think it's probably the most accurate picture of him you will find.

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It isn't in the bible somewhere that is says he had long hair awwwwww. That just totally ruined my image of Jesus . I mean cmon, the beard?! They didn't have razors! LIES! JESUS WAS A DARK SKINNED FELLOW WITH LONG HAIR AND A BEARD!! *runs away crying*

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I’m not going to die, I’m going to see if I was ever alive. - Spike
It's not your right to decide whether they live or die. They deserve a chance! - Vash
BABIES EVERYWHERE!!!

Hmm. Well..We do have two seperate time zones dedicated to Christ, if that's what you mean.

B.C. = Before Christ
A.D. = (Something) Domini

That must mean he was at least a little bit important, though I can't remember what the "A" stands for in A.D. for the life of me.

BC doesnt mean Before Christ and AD doesnt mean After Death..It's really Latin for something else..isn't it?

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I’m not going to die, I’m going to see if I was ever alive. - Spike
It's not your right to decide whether they live or die. They deserve a chance! - Vash
BABIES EVERYWHERE!!!

An effective crazy.

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WOOSH.
-----@%

Read Jon Stewart's "Naked Pictures of Famous People" for more on the historic version of Jesus' story.

Yeah, I wasn't totally sure on either one of those...Just thought I'd throw them out to stir up a little controversy. Hehe.

HE certainly was NOT! Jesus was a white man from Oxford!

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please *

I'd say millions of people are a pretty good testament that Jesus existed.

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Ω of 14

B.C. Actually does mean Before Christ, and the A.D. is the latin Anno Domini, which translated means "In the Year of Our Lord".

So there is no getting away from the religious connotation no matter which way you look at it. That is why modern classrooms now use BCE and ACE - Before Common Era and After COmmon Era. Same time period, just the P.C. police had a stick in their a$$ over this one.

In as much as historical findings, it has been anthropoligically proven. There are records of Jesus's crucifixion (the Romans kept records on all people put to death - Jesus of Nazareth shows up in that list in the suspected time it was thought to happen), and scholars have already found the tomb of the Pharisee Caiaphus, who was the head Pharisee at the time and the main guy who wanted to see Jesus crucified, although everyone had a hand in it to be sure.

Let me see - other things... There is that burial box they found that had the inscription "James - Brother of Jesus" - Anthropologists noted that that was significant, because they never put "Brother of ..." on a burial box unless that someone was well known - this based on other burial boxes that were uncovered. So likely even more anthropological proof for Jesus.

Actually, if you speak with a bunch of secular antropologists who study the area, most will agree there is enough proof that Jesus did exist, did get crucified, and that there is enough of a trail of evidence to suggest that the account of Jesus's travelings around Israel in the Bible are also historically accurate. The main thing now is whether you believe he rose from the dead - that is where you go from anthropology to the bible, although anthropology has yet to find any remains of Jesus. Of course you always got the one or two quacks who happen to "Find the bones of Jesus" about once every 2 or 3 years or so, only to be routinely discounted and discredited by the majority of secular anthropolgists who are more honest about their work.

Another interesting point, albiet off-topic. In cases where people who have experienced the stigmatta, and have had samples of the blood taken for DNA testing, the blood not only was not the same dna of the person who it bled from, but also, the blood from all these different people (the stigmatta'd blood) is all of the same dna type, which is amazing since dna is different in every person. This was something I caught a couple years back on either Nightline or 20/20 when they did an investigation on it - I forget which one...

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

To be fair, though, it's not exactly like we have a photograph of Jesus returning to Earth. And there's a LOT of famous people's bones that we haven't found evidence of, like Jimmy Hoffa. You're not gonna' convince me for a second that he rose from the dead and is the other son of God.

Haha, you watched Myth Busters to huh?! That was just on.

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I’m not going to die, I’m going to see if I was ever alive. - Spike
It's not your right to decide whether they live or die. They deserve a chance! - Vash
BABIES EVERYWHERE!!!

For those who are interested in ancient non-Christian accounts of Jesus, here they are:

• A Jewish historian named Flavius Josephus wrote about Jesus in his writings.
• Tacitus wrote to the emperor (I forget which one--maybe Titus) about Christians, and referred to Jesus being killed by Pilate, I think (I've actually translated the letter out of Latin in class).
• A guy named Seutonius wrote about Jesus too, but I can't remember what was said.

There's a third Roman source, but that's slipped my mind too. I remember Tacitus and Seutonius, though.

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"A film is - or should be - more like music than like fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what's behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later."--Stanley Kubrick

First, AD stand for Anno Domini or at least that's how it sounds. And second, JanitorBob, where did Jesus lie? From any point of view, I see that as an opinion. He could be the Son of God (or as I believe, God in the flesh) or maybe not. The thing is, his believers believed him( hence the name ) and the others... well, they killed him for it.

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Prowling out of the tundra, swinging a jeweled meat hammer, cometh Outlaw Torn! And he gives a gutteral bellow:

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Yeah, I phrased my post a little wrong, and potentially spicey.

Jesus lied if he was a Historical Jesus(TM).

If he was something more than mere man, as he claimed to be, than he was telling the truth.

Either way, he's not "just a good teacher". The best secular explanation is that he was, or went, insane.

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"Your entire base belongs to us."
"It would be highly appreciated if someone would set the bomb up for us"
"Launch all of our ships, christened 'Zigs', to insure that justice will be achieved swiftly and powerfully."

Actually, this was found to be a fake- or a likely fake- a couple months ago. Of course, the find that it was probably a fraud wasn't as widespread as it's discovery.

But that's just one thing. There's a magazine, entitled "Biblical Archeaology" or something that comes out every month with new discoveries.


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"Your entire base belongs to us."
"It would be highly appreciated if someone would set the bomb up for us"
"Launch all of our ships, christened 'Zigs', to insure that justice will be achieved swiftly and powerfully."

So, you knew the guy? For all we know, he never claimed to be the son of God. It very likely could have been added later.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

you just gave a whole bunch of stuff i needed for school thanks!


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<Kroko> Massassi is like Nazi Germany online, only it's not in Germany.

Yeah, I still wait for the day when people start picking up that Jesus looked more like that picture supplied...

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yup, Josephus. 'nuff said

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why is a raven like a writing desk?

I don't know what you would consider to be reputable, but there are quite a few historical references to Jesus. That being said, there are many scholars who agree with you, that the historical references such as those listed in the posts below, aren't reputable.

Anyone that is interested in views from both sides of this issue, should proceed to type "historical references to jesus" in to their google bar.

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[This message has been edited by MentatMM (edited March 10, 2004).]

Ok, you can determine two things about Jesus from the bible.

1: He was right about everything and he was who he said he is.

2: He was a complete madman.


I challenge all of you.

Read the new testament all the way through and see if you feel the same way about Jesus.

There is way too much overpowering evidence that he is who he says he was.

[This message has been edited by moldy_hair (edited March 10, 2004).]

Problems, moldy:

1) No matter what, people who read the NT account of Jesus will still want outside corrolation. You cannot use the Bible as evidence the Bible is correct - there needs to be extenuating proof outside the Bible that corrolates with events in it - and there is. Just remember nothing in and of itself proves itself to be true.

2) Those biased going into reading the NT will be biased in what they read, even if you tell them not to. Its good for them to have a more accurate view of what he did than "my religious friend told his friend, who told his friend, who told me" crap that is actually quite common, but it is doubtful that it will change anyone's mind.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Most of the stuff said in this thread comes from one of two sources

CS Lewis: He's the one who first pointed out that Jesus was not, nor did he intend to be, "a good moral teacher." Either He was who He said He was, or he was a madman, a con-artist, or a demon.

The Jesus Seminar: The Jesus Seminar is a group that stated that they were trying to find "the historical Jesus" but started with the presupposition that everything supernatural or miraculous was not real. Therefore, they threw out most of the Bible and were left with a handful of quotes. I hope I don't have to point out the big unscientific flaw in this thinking. Jesus is too seeped in the miraculous and supernatural to be able to just off-handedly throw all of that out. Again, this goes back to Lewis' saying; Jesus didn't intend to ever be just a moral teacher; throwing out half of what He said so that His message will conform to today's worldview doesn't get us any closer to the 'historical Jesus', and in fact, I would argue, takes us further away from Him.

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Dark, Darker, Darko

RIP Madaventor: God bless you.

The Bible's truth is not on the words of a page, but in the experiences of life. Those experiences could come from divine intervention/revelation or just the general practicality of applying Biblical teachings. It's almost a mistake to try and determine the Bible's validity by doing research in a library. You've got to test it out on the streets, around people, with people, and towards people. That's pretty much the way most people get saved, I think. They don't necessarily become convinced by dead, inanimate words, but the lively, compassionate actions of those who actually live the difference.

[This message has been edited by TheSandlot (edited March 10, 2004).]

Oh no, dude, N O!! Don't try to convince us atheists... We're WAY out of touch with reality. Let sleeping dogs lie. Let us stay IGNORANT.

We KNOW there's evidence, and lots and lots and LOTS of it, but we'd rather not see it. Oh, man can you imagine the DRAMA it would cause?? Our eyes would totally OPEN!!

So, please, friend, wipe the dust off your shoes and move on. We're already gone...

Nice Biblical reference at the end there Tenshu.

Really there is little doubt that the man existed. The doubt is about equal to the probability that all of history is just a fabrication pulled over your eyes. I'd say it's ridiculously unlikely that such a fantastic lie could hold on so long.

That he was the Son of God is another matter.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

The original Jerusalem Church was started by James, the brother of Jesus.

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Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

[This message has been edited by stat (edited March 10, 2004).]

Just in Case....

The Aramaic term for brother also refers to close male relatives. ie: there are no different words for brother, cousin, uncle, nephew, etc.

James "was the leader of the Jewish Christian community in Jerusalem," and wrote the "Letter of James," one of the seven catholic letters. In most intros (like that in The New American BibleI'll transcribe) the author is described as "James, a relative of Jesus who is usually called 'brother of the Lord' (see Mt 13,55; Mk 6,3)."

He was acknowleged by Paul as one of the "pillars," he appears in Acts "as the authorized spokesman for the Jewish Christian position in the Early Church(Acts 12,17; 15,13-21). According to the Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 20, 9, 1 && 200-203), he was stoned to death by the Jews under high priest Ananus II in AD 62."

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

FYI Bounty - the Catholic Church was wrong on that account, and Mary was not a virgin her whole life - only through the conception of Jesus.

Both Mary and Joseph were Jews, and you can talk to stat on this, and it is important in jewish culture to consimate a marriage. Joseph and Mary did just that - post Jesus.

What I fail to see is how this revalation in any way taints the virgin birth of Jesus, or how this remotely affects anyone other than those who have placed Mary on a station higher than was ever intended in the first place. Mary herself would say the same thing if she were here...

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Fear is here, where's the beer?