According to your moral standards

Seriously though, I don't think it's inappropriate for a country to put itself first, but there does need to be a line somewhere. Unfortunately, there is no one to decide where that line is because the UN has no backbone whaty so ever.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

What's the "oilcrash"? Is that when we run out of oil in about 500 years or so? I don't think that we'll still be so dependent on oil by then.

Nottheking, I wouldn't get so upset that someone is apathetic towards voting. I also wouldn't encourage someone to vote that doesn't care about the issues. For all he knows, he could end up voting against his own interests.

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former TACC outcast

Yeah, how dare you suggest that the 75% of the college-age demographic [numbers may vary] who don't vote, should actually vote on issues, instead of whinging about the results of those votes or elections they refused to take part in

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

[This message has been edited by Dormouse (edited March 17, 2004).]

That's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about the people that don't want to vote or don't think they now enough to make an educated decision on the issues. There's nothing wrong with someone making the choice not to vote. Especially if they're apathetic. Personally, I would prefer someone in that position doesn't vote since they're just checking blocks as opposed to making actual decisions on each issue and candidate. Then again, since most people who are uneducated on issues tend to vote democrat, come on out! We need all the help there is to combat conservatives!

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former TACC outcast

So have them /get/ informed, as has been mentioned already one of the reason's that there is so little apparent representation is that there is such a high rate of vote apathy, i wrote a short essay about voter apathy for my soc102 course, sometime i may dig out the numbers i found for it.

But as far as i'm concerned, if someone didn't care enough to make a decision or forward a stance, there's really hardly any excuse for them to complain about how things turned out.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

One of the great things about this country is that you have the freedom not to vote. We definitely shouldn't try to get people to vote who don't want to.

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EvilMagic.net: Brian's Web Log

Source?

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"I am downright amazed at what I can destroy with just a hammer."
-Atom and His Package

Experience. How many college kids do you know that, when undecided or unknowledgeable of the issues, vote Republican? I'm not saying they never do. Just that they're more likely to vote Democrat. I don't have a source. You can't ask me that anyway. Nobody here actually ever has to prove that they're right. Actually, I think I saw it on an internet site, now that I think of it. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. It's true. See?

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former TACC outcast

Actually, political apathy isn't a problem in America. We have quite a bit lower voter turn out than other countries, but when it comes to other forms of participation, American citizens blow everyone else out of the water.

In relation to other major countries, America puts itself first significantly less.


The more educated you are the more likely you are to vote liberal, but the wealthier you are the more likely you are to vote conservative. So in most cases they cancel each other out. And I do have a source. I'll post specifics from the book later. Anyone serious about politics should buy that book, even though it is expensive.

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If you ever want to be hated by your peers, make them look bad. That's what America did.

Uneducated in reference to the issues, not uneducated in terms of highest level of schooling. We all know that only literally uneducated types would be more likely to vote Republican. That's just common sense. It is odd, though, that the wealthiest politicians, like in the Senate for example, are Democrats. And being that it is actual wealth and not income, they are exempt from the higher income taxes they prefer. That is really smart.

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former TACC outcast

But apparently, it's the actual vote that matters. Before the War in Iraq, the majority of people were against it. However, since Bush was president, and one of the things on his agenda was invading Iraq (believed to have been put there by Paul Wolfowitz, who was a bit upset over Gulf I), Bush sent in the troops anyway.

And anyway, mcuh of the flag-waving isn't really political enthusiasm, or even patriotism; it seems to be more like nationalism, which while good-intentioned, can have rather dangerous results.

[/QUOTE]Originally posted by Kieran Horn:
In relation to other major countries, America puts itself first significantly less.[/QUOTE]
Source, please? The United States has, at virtually any given point in time since 1945, has been fighting in another country. Hell, there is still shooting going on across the North/South Korean Border!


College textbooks tend to be expensive, though, so it's nothing unusuall.

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Nes digs around in the trash can.
Nes finds a hamburger!
Nes puts the hamburger in his backpack.

The logic I posted, which happens to have been the dominant logic among leaders for the past few millenia, is called realism. Realists see the most crucial aspect of leading a nation is ensuring the nation's survival. All methods to extend the lifespan of a nation can be boiled down to increasing a nation's power, be it tangible (oil, trade money, aircraft carriers), or intangible (standing in other's eyes, treaties in place, morality). Realist leaders judge each action on whether it makes the nation stronger as a whole, taking actions that boost national power, and avoiding those that decrease it.

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Nes digs around in the trash can.
Nes finds a hamburger!
Nes puts the hamburger in his backpack.

It's not going to take 500 years to run out of oil. We're using it at a much faster rate than that. Even if you don't buy into the idea that peak oil is here now, you can't deny that we will run out of oil that is cost-effective to extract within the next 50 years, if not sooner.



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Our very existence is at stake

Well, 500 years was the figure I remember hearing from some study or something. I'll see if I can find a reference or something but I just wanted to make sure that that's what you were talking about, end of oil. Anyway, seems to me that running out of oil will be a good thing. We'll finally be rid of all that nasty stuff in the ground contaminating our drinking water.

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former TACC outcast

Well, what peak oil says is that we will not run out of oil entirely, but that we will run out of easily extractable oil. There will come a point where it will take more energy to extract a barrel of oil than that barrel of oil will produce. Peak Oil says that that time will be here soon. And when it happens, we can't do anything about it because almost all of our extraction methods rely on oil. If a mining platform in the sea burns oil to run its generators, and it burns more oil than it extracts, then it will be shut down. Peak Oil predicts that will happen to all mining operations relatively soon. And then we're all SOL.

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Our very existence is at stake

Well, sort of SOL. We should be agressively developing alternative enrgy sources to make them commerciable. It'll start happening soon.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Seems like a false argument to me. Don't get me wrong, we still need to play to peoples fear on the issue but I have a hard time thinking that in our massive earth there is not more than enough oil to fuel us until we develop different technologies. How long have we actually been drilling for oil? 100 years. And of that not even massively until the industrial age maybe. Yeah, there is probably enough oil in the ground to outlast humanity, in my opinion. We just have to work hard not to let that get out or to make people think that the effects of using the oil are even worse. If we would stop using oil for the manufacturing of plastic, which is the primary use of oil, the ammount of oil available for fuel would last so much longer. Then we would have to figure out how to use trees to make CDs!

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former TACC outcast

Wookie, you're ignoring my argument. I'm not arguing that there isn't enough oil to last for a while yet. I'm arguing that the oil that is there is difficult to drill for. When it no longer becomes cost-effective to drill for oil, we will have to replace our energy supply with an alternative that is cost-effective. An alternative which does not yet exist.

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Our very existence is at stake

They exist, but the oil companies have such a tight grip on everything that they aren't being considered for use yet.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Okay, well ... we are developing alternatives plus I'm sure that newer drilling technology is being developed. It'll all be good. Damn, I hope my Escort is still running when we run out of cost effective oil!

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former TACC outcast

Ric, you failed to address Wookie's stipulation that most of the uses of oil are for manufacturing plastics. Now finding alternative energy sources would be great, but i haven't really seen much viable work towards finding alternative plastic sources.

And yeah, what Avenger said.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

[This message has been edited by Dormouse (edited March 17, 2004).]

Yes, that's it! There trying to use all the oil until it is to costly to get it. Then there going to refine their non-oil cars! And then they'll charge us our first born for both the crappy oil and the new cars! It's too bad the oil company buys up all the alternative energy plans. Maybe Dick Cheney should have another meeting!

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former TACC outcast

I agree that we have no replacement for plastics. However, I was arguing that we don't have the oil to last. Manufacturing plastics only uses up what we already have at a faster rate. A major change which would help would be to stop putting foods in those god-forsaken wrappers. Wrap them in dock leaves, or foil, or paper. Whatever the case may be, just not so much plastic.



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Our very existence is at stake

Yes let's go back to glass! The foil would be cool to. Plus I can recyle it for more money! Oh wait, how will they get the material hot enough to make glass or foil? I'm starting to see how this whole god awful thing is connected now! Not only will we run out of usuable oil but then we're going to have to burn all the trees! Oil companies laughing all the way to the bank to I bet!

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former TACC outcast

I wouldn't put it past them.

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Our very existence is at stake