In various different debates, on various different forums, I have been told on several different occassions that the European Union is a sign of the coming of the Antichrist. More specifically, the European constitution. It seems that the EU is the Roman Empire revived, and shall serve as the seat of the Antichrist to bring forth Armageddon.. I've had lots of different Bible quotes thrown at me, most of which from Revelations. Many concerning "ten kings" or "ten horns", supposedly representing 10 nations of the EU (even though there were six founding states..).

This does appear quite amusing, but I've heard this used more and more as reasons for why to oppose the EU..

hehehe

Well if anything, why oppose it? If you know what it truly is, then you know you can't stop it, and all you can do is wait to go to heaven. Seriously, if I thought this was so, I'd be happy as hell--eternal life in heaven? HELL YES! (The irony there is very, very clear to me. No this is not a ninja edit. ¬.¬)

I was always under the impression Armageddon had more to do with the Israel/Pakistan conflict, but meh. Not like I care either way.

At least you get bath houses and togas and...Latin. I don't think that you guys will be bringing back the gladiators.

I don't necessarily believe that the 10 "kingdoms" will be existing nations, but rather 10 regions/political entities that encompass the entire world shortly before or after the Antichrist takes power. I don't really see the EU as a revived Roman Empire, but like Yoshi said, even if it is the case, I wouldn't personally oppose it. I do believe that the Antichrist will be of roman blood, though.

The battle of Armageddon is supposed to take place at Har Megiddo in the Jezreel Valley, which is apparently where many ancient battles were fought.

just my opinions...

Read the thread title and immediately though "Expanded Universe."

Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name.

...so Mort, what you're saying is that you are in fact *for* launching nuclear weapons at Europe?

Eh, the only thing I could see that'd hold water is the fact that the EU could (and probably will over the next few decades) become the dominant military power in the world.

seconded, figured GL had done more to go against it

What countries are IN the EU?

Israel vs. Palestine
Pakistan vs. India

get your haters right

No, on the contrary. I am a firm supporter of the EU. I think this is a ridiculous pseudo-Chrisitan anti-EU stance, and it makes me glad that the EU is officially atheist. It just worries me how many people I've seen use this argument..

I certainly think the EU will become a military power. And so it should. Together we're stronger, and the EU will be able to put the US in check, much like the Soviets did and the US will no longer will able to go around and do whatever it wishes. Of course, the leverage will probably be less military power but rather economic influence, especially if China sides with the EU as it will probably do. Japan is more likely to side with the US, despite environmental disagreements.

But really, when you think of it, the ultimate aim for the entire world is unity. Breaking down the barriers of national arrogance, and becoming one. A global government is what the world should be heading for. It will be, inevitably. Yes, it's a very long way off, but through establishments such as the EU, it will happen.

And I think it's a terrible shame that such nonsensical reasons as the "coming of the Antichrist" are seriously put forward as arguments against what is an ultimately beneficial concept. Overcoming such superstition will be a good step.

Hmm Mort-Hog's statement regarding world peace reminded me of Hero.... anyway, in some ways I agree with having a world wide government. However, having one huge government is certainly a big risk to say the least.

I don't think the Eu is going to be the source of the Anti-Christ, but at the same time I don't think one, unified world order would work out. Patriotism and individuality are good to a certain degree (though not to their current extremes in the U.S.) and I still don't think one giant, omnipotent organization is a good solution. People and nations of the world need to be more moderate and less extremist (sadly it will never happen though).

The Rolling Stones - Sympathy for the Devil.

Antichrist and atheist are such harsh terms. Why can't we just be called nonaffiliated? I like that name far more.

...I was joking...never mind...bleh...

Antichrist =! atheist

Atheists do not believe in God or any other supreme being.

Christians believe that "the" Antichrist (with a capital "A") is a person who believes in both God and Satan, but works for the latter. He is prophecized in the Bible to be a leader who emerges and sets up a world government shortly before the Second Coming of Christ.

Where does it say there will be a world government? I've never heard that one before.

No offence, but you're telling this to a person who chooses to not believe in ANY religion (ie: ME.) and thus doesn't really care.

However, if you'd like to know exactly what I believe, PM me and I'll try to explain it. But I'd prefer to just explain it and not debate it. You wouldn't change my mind.

Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia , Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, The Netherlands, and the United Kingdom.

With Germany, France, Sweden, and the U.K. backing a good deal of the military R&D, they should be able to form a very impressive farm of military machines and equipment.

I don't necessarily believe that the Antichrist will come out of a unified Government. If I told you guys what I believe on that, it would offend people. So, if you really want to know, PM or e-mail me. Otherwise, I'll keep it to myself.

Wow! It's great to know this as it's another to add with all the other sign's we've been 'seeing' for the last 2000 years!

I think you could take pretty much anything that happens in world and say it means the end is coming.

1) Of course the world is reaching the end. It's obviously not heading for the beginning...=)
2) People have been declaring the end is near for 2000 years with such signs - I really think there's only one person who knows when it will be and that's God. Period.

Besides, I think the EU might do well, might not.

With 320 million people, twelve different languages - it's not going to be like a "United States of Europe". Going to be many different customs which will take a long time to implement the EU's partial goal of a better national soverignty.

The EU might work in it's goal of economic, monetary, and political union - but I just see the cultures clashing. Do you really see the French wanting to be like other countries? (No offense, but France is very loyal to its customs)

I don't know - I'm just still skeptical on if the EU will last. Time will tell.


And time will tell if the end is near - but hell, they said Y2k had signs of the end of the world from revelation and I think they might have read a little to much into that...

Freelancer: Daniel's visions in chapters 2 and 7 refer to four world empires that rule one after another, with the 4th empire representing both Rome and the end times, in which a remnant of that empire (the Antichrist) creates a final world government.

Phoenix: I realize that you don't believe in any particular religion (and thus the stuff I said about the Antichrist), which is why I preceeded that portion of my message with the words "Christians believe...". I'm not trying to convince you on that matter; my point was simply that antichrists and atheists are not necessarily the same thing.

France is one of the most valuable members of the EU. France bitterly opposes the US, and will refuse to be like the US. That is all. France cooperates fully with Europe and is a powerful European ally. I realise that the US spouts a lot of propaganda about France, but don't be too eager to believe any of it.

The 'melding' of cultures will happen, as it has been happening over the last few hundred years. European countries have never been shut off from eachother.
Similarly, different languages will 'meld'. Eastern Europe may take slightly longer, considering that almost every country has its own language. But they all speak Russian, so I think it is likely for that to overcome their national languages.

A few hundred years ago, individual towns existed separate of eachother and more or less governed themselves. Mostly due to the national integration brought by the railway, towns were no longer individual towns, they were part of a much greater network of towns, all working together, all integrated, all united.

Only a few decades ago, individual countries existed more or less separate of eachother. I think the international integration brought by the internet will play a big role in international unity and co-operation.

And so eventually, there won't be any countries. Not in Europe, anyway.

I just can't see it happening. We have to get rid of wars and terrorism before anything like that could begin to transpire, and frankly, i don't see that happening, either.

I don't think that it will ever work b/c we humans are too f***ed up to ever live together peacefully for any signifigant duration of time. We all know the difference between right and wrong (hopefully) , but a lot of the time we choose to do the wrong thing and hurt others even though we also have the opportunity to do the right thing. Does that not make us evil by default?

In the year 2100, if Massassi still exists, you could post this same thing, and it would still be relevant...

And right now Russian is losing its foothold in every country not belonging to the Russian federation.


I used to believe in the plausibility of a world government, but no more. It wouldn't work as a democracy under normal conditions. The former larger countries would have, naturally, more votes, and the former smaller countries would thus suffer. We see this in the EU right now. If you think France or Germany or UK or Italy really cares what happens to some small countries in the EU, you haven't kept your eyes open. A world goverment would only serve the former large countries. And I can't blame them; it's their responsibility to look after their own citizens.

Only a serious alien invasion from the outer space could unify mankind.

Knowing a ton of french people, I can tell you this isn't true at all. The french hold their language and culture very dearly, but at the same time are very open to other cultures. The EU isn't about destroying cultures, it's about unifying the countries. People in different regions will still speak different languages and have different customs.

Like mort said - americans say alot of things about the french that aren't true, you have to be careful how much of it you believe.

Ummm, yeah, ok. I mean the EU is kinda stupid and all that, but um... yeah. BTW, just becasue every one is entitled to their own oppinion doesnt mean we have to hear it you know. :p

I wish people who make these claims about "the end times are at hand" would pick up their Bible once in a while and read it:
Mark 13:32-33 - But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.

....

Ironic, yes?

Religiously an "antichrist" was defined by John the Apostle as anyone who denies the divinity of Christ. The Antichrist is said to be a concrete person who will offer a what seems to be an answer to life's problems, at the price of apostacy from the truth. it is a message in direct opposition to Christ's message of salvation.

It would have to appear so true on the surface, but at it's core bear all of the markings of a lie, which can never compare to the truth.

Tyler Durden in Fight Club was supposed to be an Antichrist figure.

It is my belief that the specifics don't matter, and the message already begins to be present every time a lie is hailed as the answer. If one loves the truth at all times, and not just the end, then the who, what and when don't matter.

And about the Hill of Megido, that is where the armies of the world gather for battle, in Revelation. The earthly armies are never said to clash, or take part in the ultimate battle.

By that definition the world already has thousands of antichrists..

I think that one reason many see the EU as a tool of Armageddon is that a popular interpretation of Revelations is that one of the four horsemen is supposed to conquer the Earth. The Bible describes the horseman as having a bow, but omits any mention of arrows, which many theologians believe to mean that it will be a peaceful/political takeover -- i.e., a world government.

I do find the rumors claiming similarities between the EU and the comming of the Antichrist to be amusing. It reminds me of some people noting how much RFID tags resemble the description of the mark of the Beast. There's a website somewhere that keeps track of how close the current world state resembles the condition of armageddon (on a scale of 1-1000), but I couldn't find it after 10 minutes of searching.

As for the EU, while I do support it, I don't think they're going to get as far as many believe. Here's a few reasons:

• I personally believe the primary purpose for the invasion of Iraq was to compromise the stability of the EU; it worked quite well for that purpose, puting a partisan right down the middle of it. EU states are arguing against each other, a far cry from the mostly universal agreement they should have had by now.
• The EU constitution isn't really going to work. Member nations have argued over how to spread the voting power among its nations. Nations like the UK, France, Germany, and Italy would never settle for a Parliament that grants an equal share to each nation of Europe, while smaller nations want to avoid always being squashed by the opinion of the bigger nations. Of course, all agree that that won't take one house of each, as it would resemble America too much for their tastes.
• Military power. The EU, as long as they're already spending such high ammounts of money on social programs, won't have the resources to maintain a military force as exhaustive as that of the US. For the fiscal year 2003, the US's military budget surpassed 50% of the total world spending on military, with over $500 Billion (US). The whole EU together doesn't quite reach $200 Billion (US), largely due to massive money earmarked for social programs to improve their citizen's quality of life.

Yay! Someone pointed that out!



Man, what love they have for the U.S. if that's their only reason...

Oh yeah, I also started this thread if anyone is interested.

That isn't the only reason, but it's the saddest reason. They are so against the US that they refuse to follow the single ideology and structure that has been proven to withstand virtually everything thrown at it. Even Bush's attempts that may appear to some as if they will derail the US won't have such an effect.