That is disrespectful, yes. Evil? no.
Yes. I hate it when I hear someone (espcially after Afghanistan ended) say "Yeah, we beat the towel heads and sheep humpers!" and I've gotten in a few fights over it.

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Beware of music. It brings out the animosity in everyone.

OMG you just don't read.

The computer I am sitting at has very little to do with the DoD. It has a lot to do with America and it's trade relations with Malaysia (Intel and AMD have almost all thier chips made there) and China (almost everything else hardware related is made there), and Canada's trade relations with America.
And America enforces it's trade relations with the Clinton statement, "Anyone who trades with Cuba will be punished by the US and have it's trade relations terminated." LOL! You have to be old enough to remember that.

And the failed French project was denied completion by the Panamanian government so the president sent arms and soldiers down to Panama to help and train them to take over on the condition that the US builds and controls the canal.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.
HTP
babble, babble, b!tch, b!tch, rebel, rebel, party, party.

Dear president bush,

Get the **** away from me and my people.


Love, Halloobabajingya Ubbar

Problem solved

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Fight fire with fire! Fight EVERYTHING with fire!

"True as toasted toads!"

I'm confused because you were just rambling. The computer parts are made in other countries, so what? You didn't even back up your "bullying and covert tactics" statement and you just listed some trade agreements. And I know bullying didn't happen during those negotiations because China would just laugh at us and America doesn't have the socializing leeway other countries have because we are under so much scrutiny. It would have been political suicide. and I also know Clinton didn't threaten anybody about trading with Cuba because he did what ever he could to appease the rest of the world.

The problem isn't that I'm not reading. It's that you don't know what your talking about and you keep saying things totally off the wall. Like I said, I'm willing to talk to you, but you need to stop pulling things out of the air, not making any sense at all, and speaking with your emotions.. I was emotional at first in this thread, but I got over it quickly because I knew it would only hurt me. You can do the same. I believe in you.

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Beware of music. It brings out the animosity in everyone.

I haven't read the rest of this thread yet but I wanted to address Evad.

I respect your opinion but just wanted to express mine. This isn't a case of Iraqis acting out their aggression against Americans. This is a case of sub-human monsters acting out their aggression against good people. The vast majority of Iraqis have come to know the generousity and compassion of Americans from, of all people, its warriors.

There does exist a terrible evil in some of the people there and that, in my opinion, does more to demonstrate why we are really there than anything else.

That town needs to be pacified. I don't want to see the whole place leveled, although I wouldn't have minded seeing all at the sight of this attrocity vaporized, but marshall law should be enforced, the whole town locked down, and the entire city searched. Those who defy should be dealt with severely.

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Have you forgotten ...

There's no such thing as 'terrible evil', only bad perspectives. Truly, do you think these men commited these acts just because they enjoy killing people? Or perhaps because they like to do evil? Of course not. These people did what they thought was the right thing to do - which is what everyone essentially does. Doesn't make them nessessarily right, but they're no more evil than your average guy.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

First of all, I'd like to say this: Kieran, you are a genius. I don't frequent these forums often, but when I do, I almost always find myself siding with you on a debate. And even if I disagree with you, you present your case cooly and eloquently, and I salute you for it.

Moving on. Flexor... Oh boy, do I hate relativist crap like that. Go click on that link at the beginning of the thread again. Look at the first picture in the slideshow. The one showing the burned, chopped-up, mutilated body hanging by a rope from a bridge. Look at those little kids laughing, smiling, dancing around that American's desecrated corpse. That, my friend is evil. I don't give a sh** if they were doing what "they thought was the right thing to do". If you're idea of "the right thing to do" is to not simply kill innocent civilians, but to also then parade their bodies through the streets, you are a disgusting cretin that needs a well-placed round in the forehead, regardless of your own lenient views on morality.

I don't know what the hell you and Evad are thinking. I normally don't try to come across as so single-minded, but... Dammit, how can you possibly defend what they're doing?? Fine, they don't like us in their country. If they want to engage in guerilla warfare against our troops as we help them to establish a democracy, then fine. It's signing their own death warrant, but that's how it goes. But targeting civilians and treating their dead bodies like trophies of war is in no way justifiable.

And don't even try to compare American-caused collateral damage to this. If a bomb accidentally kills civilians, that is of course terrible, but that frankly is how it goes. Our military does everything it can to prevent such problems, as has been noted here previously. What the military never does is intentionally bomb homes or marketplaces in an attempt to intimidate the populace into submission. If you can't tell the difference between terrorism and unfortunate collateral damage(or, for that matter, the difference between terrorism and guerilla warfare), then I don't even know why you're trying to engage in this debate.

*sigh* I needed that. I hope I didn't come off as unnecessarily rude.

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Self-righteous people are more sinful than I am.

[This message has been edited by Cougar (edited March 31, 2004).]

Again, I must point out the great number of americans who would smile and dance at the sight of the desecrated corpses of arabs... are those guys evil too, then?

Seriousely, people who lack such perspective are a big part of why wars are faught in the first place.



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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

I'm always cool. I only ever got upset once with someone in the forums and that was with Brian when we were discussing taxes.
With you KH, I find you in the same mindset as BlackAurora was before he actually got pissed and left for good. I find you close minded and brainwashed by your government and media. If you took the time to read about what your government does on other countries media web sites (CBC and the BBC for the ones you might believe), you might start to question what your government is actually doing.


Sadly this kind of attitude seems to permeate the US because some official told everyone it's 'OK'.
So as I was saying earlier, go there. Live there. Know your neighbours. The ones Wookie06 is talking about. The ones that want the US to help them. The ones that dance around and hand out flowers when the troops come rolling in. And then shrug your shoulders and say, "Oh well. That kind of thing happens when you are at war." when your American loving neighbour gets killed because it just so happened that a target was next to his house. Whether that target was a building or a person. When a bunker buster is dropped in a city, people are going to get killed. Good people.
When this happens more times than you can stand, let me know how you feel.
I don't know how it feels but I sure can sympathize with these people.

Defy who for what?
I agree the town needs to be pacified but by who and by what means? And would this just perpetuate this evil you speak of?

Stop and actually think about it for a few minutes.

No really.

Think about it.

Bombing someone only solves one big problem but casues a whole bunch of other small problems.
You know. Like the time they bombed the medicine factory in Sudan. They did it at night because the civilian death would only be 3 according to intelligence.
Collateral damage or murder? Depends on whether your civilians were one of the 3 in the building.

Think about it.

No really.

Honestly think about it.

Maybe, just maybe, you'll understand how these people might feel and why they act out as they do.
It is not evil. It's frustration and hatred the likes of which you will probably never know.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.
HTP
babble, babble, b!tch, b!tch, rebel, rebel, party, party.

[This message has been edited by Darth Evad (edited March 31, 2004).]

This incident was utterly horrible. Over-reacting in response would also be utterly horrible.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1 & 2 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

If only truth were relative, that might be true.... or not, since it's relative.
Aaaak, that's just confusing.

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"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."
- Proverbs 27:17

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

Hey, you happen to have a link handy to that website that's full of pictures of American children dancing around the charred and dismembered corpses of arabs? I had it in my Favorites, but I had to reinstall Windows, and I lost it. I tried googling "children dancing around corpses", but all I got was pages of arab children celebrating the deaths of Americans.

Once again I'll state that I haven't fully read the thread but I have skimmed some of the responses to my last post.

Flexor, there is evil in this world. You can choose to accept it as a mere cultural difference and that is fine. I look at it differently.

American soldiers who kill in the line of duty take little to no pleasure in the act. Yes, it can be mildly satisfying to shoot a guy before he gets you but these people that commit the acts being discussed here are less than animals. Maybe it's not entirely their fault as it is a result of the culture they have been brought up in but, once again I'll state, that is demonstrative of the reasons that intervention is necessary in the region. Many of those people look at things like that as "normal". They need to be "edjucated".


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Have you forgotten ...

Hi, Evad... I only stop by once every few months or so, but I have observed that you do seem to be more raving and hysterical with each of my occasional visits.

That quote up there is just, well, a little loony, to say the least.

Don't you ever find it to be quite an amazing coincidence that evey time an American disagrees with your specific views on forgein affairs that they are always treated to such assertions as:


Or how about?


You seem to engage in this type of discourse all too often.

Personally, I've always thought it'd be kinda cool to be something other than a two-dimensional, cardboard-cutout caricature of some stupid, evil, greedy, bloodthirsty, imperialist redneck robot that is completely incapable of voraciously absorbing information from many different and disparate international news sources, and forming a well-balanced world view of it's own design based on critical scrutiny of availiable data. But that's just me.

Oh, and Flexor? I personally haven't seen any evidence of Americans with quite that level of animosity towords Arabs. Those types of overtly racist overtones that you eluded to don't tend to be received very well here in our media and cultural mindset. "Islam is a religion of peace", etc. We're the massivly multicultural roleplaying experiance, remember?

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MotS Single Player:
Strike Force!
The Continuing Adventures of Mara Jade

As Evad suggested, try watching BBC a little. They never show those things on american media.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

That's because they don't occur. At least not at any organized level. Any attrocities committed are the illegal acts of criminals and an organization as big as the US military is going to have it's share of criminals.

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Have you forgotten ...

Of course they're not organised official gouvernment stuff... just like what happened to those 4 americans in iraq. I don't see your point.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

Have a look for My Lai on the net then.



Would post some more descriptions from this website, but they're rather graphic, and would probably get me banned.

[This message has been edited by GHORG (edited April 01, 2004).]

No, but this does.
"In the southern city of Basra, Iraqi security forces fired on protesters demanding jobs as policemen on Thursday, killing one demonstrator and wounding two others, officials said."

I fully support the attacks on American forces.
The war in Iraq was never over, it continues just as strong, if not stronger, today. This is a war of minds, and it cannot be won with carpet-bombing.
The key element of attacks on American forces in Iraq is that it keeps the media attention on the situation. The media did a wonderful job of forgetting Afganistan, but that isn't going to happen in Iraq because of the attacks. Not yet, anyway. After a series of suicide bombings in Iraq, it was said that the process of handing power to Iraqis was going to be accelerated; that is a great victory for the rebels, and indeed Iraqis in general. Iraqis do not and have never supported the US to any great extent, even those that opposed Saddam Hussein didn't especially, and what Iraqis want is for the Americans to get out, one way or another. Those that actively supported Saddam Hussein, probably those from Tikrit, will kill every American for that to happen. But those that violently oppose the Americans are not just those that supported Saddam Hussein; the longer the Americans stay in Iraq, the more Iraqis are going to take up arms.

Hmmm...those picture lack Americans celebrating around those corpses...

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Roach - I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.--Frank Lloyd Wright

0 of 14.

Rhettman, I hope at least it's somewhat entertaining for you.

My belief that a lot of Americans are brainwashed comes from watching CNN and MSNBC.
It's funny, because some American celebrities that have had the chance to visit the other side come back and laugh that the media 'over there' has Clinton or Bush (or whoever) labeled as a terrorist with footage of bombs dropping and claims of more attacks.
When exposed to this kind of media constantly, day in and day out, you become brainwashed.
I know Bush isn't a terrorist. I actually like Clinton for some reason even though he dropped more bombs than any other president before him.

The CBC and BBC has news and documentaries from 'over there' from thier point of view.
Give it a chance. It will make you think about it.
Watch a movie called From Ground Zero to Ground Zero. You will see how a viliage in Afghaistan was bombed on the chance that terrorists may have been there. In that village, the hosts family lived. The Afghan born American Manhattanite lost 39 family members to US bombs in 4 minutes.
US military officials admit on comera that they acted on a hunch that 'terrorists were hiding out there and they wouldn't define 'terrorist' as anyone in any specific group.

No wonder these people think Bush is a terrorist. This stuff happens and according to most Americans, "Oh well. **** happens."
NO! **** does not happen. Thirty nine people in one family get killed in 4 minutes acting on a hunch is what happens.

Why should anyone bomb an entire city as has been suggested needs being done in this thread when just the criminals should be punished? There are a lot of good people in that town. Why do you want to bomb them?

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.
HTP
babble, babble, b!tch, b!tch, rebel, rebel, party, party.

I'll laugh the day the earth is invaded by aliens and we're in desperate need of more men, and we don't have enough of them, while just earlier that day we were blowing eachother's asses up just because it makes us feel good.

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Titan A.E.

"The least they could do is kill my food before I eat it." - Cale

Although my name represents one of my favorite songs, in a way it also explains my actual person, a Cosmic Castaway!

I think most Americans would actually say something along the lines of "We did what to who now?" I don't think the majority of Americans know what's happening around the world, even when the U.S. is involved.

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Roach - I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.--Frank Lloyd Wright

0 of 14.

Can't we all just get along and remind ourselves that quarreling about this won't solve anything. People are entitled to their own opinions, but every time someone states theirs, they are called a baffoon and shown why they are incorrect. I think it is a terrible thing that these people were killed, but we must remember how we Americans treated the muslim followers after the world trade center was bombed. Some were simply cursed at or verbally abused while they appeared in public, while some other unfortunate ones were killed. I know this for a fact because I witnessed it on the news several times. These people were acting like we Americans did when we were attacked, mostly because we felt vunerable and helpless. I agree that the people who killed and mutilated the americans should be brought in to face the consequences, but not everyone that looks or talks like them.

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Fear, It Controls The Fearful. The Strong. The Weak. The Innocent. Fear Is My Ally!

The Arcane Sith

Impeccable.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

Of course that'd be evil. For Pete's sake, where the hell do you get off accusing me of such blatant double standards when you don't know me at all? I think you have a problem with categorizing everyone who disagrees with you as belonging to the same ideological background. To debate, you have to understand that different people have very different mindsets and philosophies that govern their decisions, and accusing strangers of mindless jingoism does more to hurt your cause than help it.



I don't believe too many French victims of World War II complained too loudly when the Allies were forced to blow open an apartment with a tank in order to take out some hiding Nazis. I'm still trying to figure out whether you're an all-out pacifist, or you are just opposed to wars when civilians might be accidentally killed by a bomb.

In any case... I don't know what to tell you. As much as I hate cliches, "War is hell". If we are forced to take out some village because terrorists are hiding out in there, then I guess we just have to do what we have to do. If you'd rather wait to have those terrorists come out and blow up a shopping mall in New York, then fine. I'll be sure never to elect you to any position of public service.



Violent citizens of an Iraqi city brutally slaughter some American civilian contractors. Marines are sent in, root out the ringleaders, and the ringleaders are shot. They're supporters come out to cause trouble. The supporters are shot.

Well, I'll let someone with a more strategic mind deal with the proper military response, but it seems to me that if somebody is dead, he'll have a hard time killing more American contractors.



Frustration and hatred... Okay, so that's what leads them to intentionally target civilians for destruction. Why exactly is that not evil?

I suppose a more prevalent question would be: What actions would you consider to be evil? It seems as if you can justify any actions undertaken by anyone.(Save for perhaps the American government. I still haven't decided if you're that single-minded.) If so, then there's absolutely no reason to continue this discussion.



I'm not sure if you're realizing that you're insulting Americans for being brainwashed by the American media and mindlessly supporting Bush, while at the same time you're defending the actions of lunatics because they were brainwashed by their own Arab and European media.



Errm... Alright, I guess I'll just not touch that one...



No, I think it's just that the majority of Americans understand the price of war. Obviously not enough do, because otherwise we wouldn't be having people ***** about the occasional U.S. casualties or the $80+ billion to fund the war effort.

It's interesting to note that more people were killing by carpet bombing raids on Tokyo than were killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. No one accused anyone of being a terrorist, that's just how war is. Maybe one of the major problems with having an enemy who lurks in the shadows and strikes cowardly once every other year or so is that we forget what war is actually like. As horrible as more conventional warfare is, maybe we need to be reminded that war typically isn't happy for anyone involved.

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Self-righteous people are more sinful than I am.

How? Was there a recent war on American soil?

Oh, you mean know through second-hand?

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I hate kids.

Don't let the bush-talk get to you. It takes a whole damn lot of courage to take over an airplane by force, guiding it onto a target deep inside ennemy lines and ending your own life in the process. Of course they lurk in shadows, rather than coming out in plain sight where you can take them down with ease. That's not what I call cowardly - that's what I call smart.



You completely missed the point. I was adressing people who think we should nuke the middle east into oblivion, while ignoring the fact that there's a probably proportional number of people who are just as bad in america. If you fail to realise that, then you truly are, as evad so well put it, brainwashed.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

[This message has been edited by Flexor (edited April 01, 2004).]

My take on the "cowardly" adjective. I don't know if "cowardly" is the correct word, but the situationy ou described was NOT the situation on september 11th. there were no "enemy lines" and there were no "enemies". These *******s were "courageous" all right, in a sick way, for sacrificing their lives for what they believed in, but then again, they killed 3000 innocent civilians. Not military targets. Civilians, like you and me. That's what makes "cowardly", while not the most appropriate word, at least close.

Also, Evad, I usually take the side of "everything's relative" and no, I can not blame them for killing those soldiers on the highway. I don't like it, but i can't blame them. But civilians? That's a load of bull****. And then desecrating their bodies like that? Even more bull****. The civilians are doing nothing at ALL to threaten them. All those particular ones did was be in the wrong place at the wrong time, out of foolishness or just bad luck. That's no reason to die, and it's completely unjustifiable to kill innocent civilians on purpose FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN TO KILL THEM. I mean, if they thought killing them was going to make the US leave, they're jsut stupid beyond the point of comprehension, and honestly, that's not justifiable, either. I CAN blame them for that.

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WOOSH|-----@%

*sigh* whatever

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

.. Have a look for 'Relevant To Conversation' on the net then. My Lai
A) Took place 36 years ago
B) Involved a single unit led by a man who was overly Gung-Ho. Was ended by a US helicopter overhead landing, saving as many people as possible, and with standing orders to fire at any American soldier who attempted to stop them. Investigations and (Sadly, very innefectual) court marshalls followed. Not "Praise be onto these proud soldiers who massacred civilians and are now guaranteed a spot in paradise!"

Sorry, a group of soldiers is not the same as an entire town, including civilians, both young and old.

Roach - Er.. I'd say mutilating a dead body is celebration enough. Clearly, the soldiers were taking pleasure in the massacre, let's make no bones about this.

Flexor - Yeah, let's commend the 9/11 terrorists for their willingness to take their own lives - Jesus christ almighty boy, have you gone retarded? The weight of their bad deeds alone should outshadow any courage they may have had, to say nothing of the fact that, if you honestly believe that your suicide attack is going to land you in eternal paradise, doing it's not that brave an act. It wouldn't even be scary to you, just tedious. And if they *didn't* have that kind of faith in what they were doing, then why the hell did they do it? The only other reason is to ensure that their family got paid handsomely by Al Quada - If money is an acceptable reason to you for mass slaughter of innocent civilians, then this conversation is dead in the water.

And no, there *isn't* a proportionate amount of screwed up people in the US and the Middle-East, and that kind of claim is just ridiculous. One is a third world country where brutality has reigned for at least the past 20 years, one is the dominant global superpower. I'm not saying that Arabs are genetically inferior or any other such racist comment - I'm saying that the truth of the situation is, a region like the Middle East breeds the kind of hatred and frustration that would lead to an event like this. Hell, that's been yours and Evad's argument this entire time.

That's not an excuse though. There are plenty of people in the region who have crawled out of that hole and made a good, honest life for themselves.

Then you should ponder it abit more. I never said official government stuff. I said organized. As in a group. You may find some sicko in the Army willing to do such vile things but not a group willing to do so nor a contingent of troops willing to follow any such potentially unlawful orders.

Things like this make it so hard to discuss these things here because you practically have to hold some peoples hands and walk them through the whole thing.

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Have you forgotten ...

This thread is progressing so rapidly and retreading so many things that it really doesn't inspire me to redebate the old but I would like to offer some views that might make people think through the issues abit differently.

First, it's good to see Mort-Hog posting in here. Refreshing to see that he still supports the slaughter of Americans whether it be the attacks of 9/11 or civilians working to bring a better Iraq to Iraqis. Don't ever change Mort. We need people like you out there.

Second, regardless of what you believe about the reasons for the war in Iraq and whether or not it should have happened, know that the US military went in there with the mission to remove an evil dictatorship and liberate Iraqis. You don't have to like the reasons for going but that is the mission and the military is doing its best to ensure the preservation of Iraqi dignity and liberty. I will not debate this or provide any other proof than to say I know this to be fact because I was there.

Third, it would be one thing to have attacked that convoy, or any other convoy for that matter, but it is a far different thing to relish in the deaths of those people. Look, I understand some terrorist or baath cell there celebrating an attack against forces that hunt and kill them but it is reprehensible to desecrate the dead as was done by that mob comprised of inferior people. Yes, I believe that people who committ acts such as those are inferior in a multitude of levels. I believe the type of behavior exhibited by that mob is indicative of the whole reason we are there. People like that, with no respect for life, flew airliners into buildings in America (much to the satisfaction of Mort-Hog).

Lastly, regardless of our political differences, we all must realize that people like that can not be reasoned with. The couldn't on 9/11 and they can't today in Falujah. They must be dealt with. One way, or another.

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Have you forgotten ...

Good post Slug and Wookie...

I'm just afraid you're going to get the usual 'brainwash' comments - something like "That's just from your perspective", etc.

What I don't get is this. You people say that the Americans are brainwashed because they watch the news, AND REALIZE LOTS OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO WATCH DIFFERENT TYPES OF NEWS. As in Liberal, Conservative, and how they spin stories on the war.

Yet the Arabs are not brainwashed for listening to their media and government, you are not brainwashed from your sources, etc. So who really, IS NOT BRAINWASHED?

According to you, we can't listen to any media, we can't listen to any government, who the **** do we listen to then?

This was the issue I had with WMD: Even if the US found them, 50% of the world would think we planted them.

If you can't see the relevance, I'll try and spell it out so even alpha1 could understand it.

4 Americans killed. Americans cry foul.
500+ Vietnamese killed. Whoopsidoodle!


And involved the better part of the government/army in the lacklustre prosecutions, which essentially produced weaker verdicts than some liberal childrens court judges.


The two men in the huey were not under orders to stop the massacre, they acted of their own volition. There were very few civilians left to save and it was 30 years before they received any recognition for their actions.


Ineffectual is an understatement. For 500+ dead civilians killed by a Company sized group of men:

One man was charged. He received a life sentence. This was commuted and he ended up spending less than 5 years in Jail.

Face it Slug. That's disregard for human lives at it's best.

Noone would argue that that, taken at face value, is true Ghorg. It is irrelevant to the current debate. Those who commit attrocities should always be dealt with harshly.

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Have you forgotten ...

Maybe with a damned history book. Or some common sense.

How ironic, considering your screen name.



Bull ****. Back in those days, highjackers didn't regularly kill people. Common practice for hostages was to stay quiet, play it cool, and eventually you'd be released. Which was it... Flight 99 that counterattacked on 9/11? That was a gross irregularity. Not to mention that the terrorists were going up against unarmed, untrained civilians. So they ended their own lives? They were slamming a flying airplane into a steel-framed buildings. Even if they weren't instantly killed, I can imagine they already had hugemongous boners in anticipation of the harem of virgins awaiting them in paradise as they quickly burned to death.

I'm sorry, I have a very hard time seeing bravery in the murder of civilians. At best, perhaps a desperate determination.



Probably proportional... I'm curious to see where you got those numbers.

[DISCLAIMER]Just wanna clarify: What I mentioned above about the virgins and whatnot, that was directed only at the terrorists, and not a jab at the Islamic religion as a whole. Just trying to cover my arse here... [/DISCLAIMER]

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Self-righteous people are more sinful than I am.

[This message has been edited by Cougar (edited April 01, 2004).]

[This is my shiny thing and if you try and take it off me I may have to eat you. Also, don't do that.]

[This message has been edited by The_Cat (edited April 01, 2004).]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "those days". Regardless, Al Quaeda highjackers usually kill people. Those who don't are after ransom - which isn't the case here.



To that I say a big well DUH. They're not trying to conquer the country, they know very well that they don't possess that kind of power. Their objective is to do damage, and you maximize damage by attacking targets that can't defend themselves.



Do you believe in god? Even if you dont, let's say you do. You think you're going to heaven, and you'll be very happy there... so why aren't you grabbing the nearest knife and plunging it in your chest so you can get there faster? Think about it.



Regardless of how you word it, these guys gave their lives for what they believe is right. Not saying I agree with it, but if you look at it from an objective point of view, it's no different than an american soldier who dies in battle "protecting his country". The fact that the victims couldn't protect themselves is irrelevant in this case, seeing as the highjackers were to die anyways. [/quote]



I didn't give numbers, only a vague estimation based on logic, personal knowledge and experience.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

Hehe...you should have been here a few years ago. I was nuts.

From what I've seen, the worst thing he has said has been idealism. There is a difference between that and belligerence.

If they killed the arab as well? Of course. If they just saw a picture? Maybe not evil, but they deserve to get the crap kicked out of them.

I already question what my government does. I get angery at Bush, but not on the issue of Iraq (except for maybe a few things here and there). And you don't even want to see me go off on my representative in Congress. Also, there are quite a few news agencies in America that try to put Bush in as bad a light as possible.

I actually agree with you here. I think the "oh well" attitude exists too much. It's sad that it happened and it shouldn't have happened, so find out what went wrong and correct it. But I know that train of thought is a bit idealistic *shrug*

Attacking military personnel is one thing, attacking civilians is totally different.

I heard of some kind of poll one of the major news agencies did(I think it was CBS) did in Iraq. The general attitude was "Thanks America, now get out". Of course, I don't know where I could find that poll, so take it how you like.

The nation is pretty divided over the war in Iraq. I wouldn't call that a brainwashed country.

And those people need to be brought to task as well

I would have to disagree. I think the WWII generation is the last generation that understands necessity of blood(as a majority). Besides that, I think only most military personnel and few civilians understand nowadays.

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Beware of music. It brings out the animosity in everyone.

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited April 01, 2004).]