That's completely insane. For one thing, nobody can get into my house without a key now. Fact. It would take a battering ram to get through my front door (and there's no space there to use one anyway). And I still don't understand why on Earth having dangerous weapons around your family can make you feel more safe. No matter how well you take care of them, accidents can and will happen.

Kirb, I actually appreciate your point about people who use guns being in favour of them. But frankly I have no desire to ever even see one in real life, and I don't understand why I should. All I have ever witnessed through the news is pain and suffering caused by them, so why should I choose to bring them into my life?

Methinks you put a bit too much trust into the news media. They don't always tell you the whole story, you know. Like the times that they have saved lives. People keep ignoring that fact.

But see, the news isn't going to do a piece about the nice boys and girls learning gun control and safety, you're going to hear about the 2 boys who played a video game then shot people. Really, if you don't know about guns, don't assume that they're instantly dangerous to you and your family, just accept that you know nothing about them.

JediKirby

If you'd read further, you'd have seen that I did end up saying more, but that's irrelevant anyway. What I should have said is guns = dead people = bad. Better?

(and no, for kak's sake, I'm not saying owning a gun instantly means you're a murderer, I'm just saying that if guns (and we're talking non-hunting guns) weren't readily available, there would be fewer shootings)

As far as I can see, the vast majority of cases where that would apply would be with police having firearms, not civilians.

To be honest, no, not really. That ignores reality. Taking guns out of your equation won't remove dead people or bad.



Not true. "Hunting guns" are just as capable of killing people as "non-hunting guns." The only way to eliminate shootings is to remove every gun from the face of the planet. Then other weapons would be used, and then good guys wouldn't be able to take out the bad guys from a distance.



Maybe in your country, since civilians aren't allowed to have guns (I think that's correct, is it?). But in countries where civilians are allowed to defend themselves...

"All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

The hunting comment was because I anticipated someone saying something about the number of guns in Canada in comparison with shootings.

No, guns aren't legal over here. Of course, that doesn't mean that nobody has them, but it's very rare.

I'm just going to keep reiterating this, because it's still valid as far as I'm concerned -
I really cannot see a bonus to allowing civilians to handle long-range weapons. If my home was broken into (though as I've stated, that's nigh on impossible now) I wouldn't dream of taking on the intruder. We have emergency services for a reason.
If someone was planning on robbing a house, and was pretty certain that there were guns inside, the chances of them going in unarmed are incredibly slim. The way I see it, there's just more and more danger being entered into the equation. I'd much rather someone broke in and stole everything I owned whilst I hid in a cupboard than end up in a confrontation with an armed criminal...

[edit] I'm going to bed now

Do you think the intruder's going to stand there while you call the police? Do you think the police will arrive before he can finish his evil deeds?

If someone was planning on robbing a house, and was pretty certain that there were guns inside, the chances of him still robbing that house are incredibly slim. The criminal will most likely choose another target.



That's understandable, and if you could be certain that you'd be safe, maybe even preferable. But how could you be certain that you'd be safe? What if you couldn't get to a cupboard in time? What if he opened it? What if he decided to make sure that you could never identify him to the police? Something to think about.

Now this is where my opinion changes: Nothing you own is worth dying over. I don't have guns for protection, because if someone wants to harm me, be it with a gun a knife, or their bare hands: They will. Owning a gun isn't going to prevent that, and the likelyhood that I'm going to be able to react with a firearm quick enough to save my own life, let alone my prized possessions is slim. That doesn't mean owning a gun in the home can't double for protection, but it's a foolish reason to get a gun. It really isn't going to do anything unless you yourself are an expert at handeling one. Knowing how to shoot a hunting rifle, and knowing tactics to standing off with another human being with a gun are not the same things.

JediKirby

I'd be more than willing to die for some things I own. Why? Because I don't give a rat's *** about my life--but that's another thread.

Maev--I'm sorry, but you seem frightfully ignorant of the world around you. If you think that criminals can't get guns just because they aren't 'readily available' you're horribly mistaken. Can someone buy an uzi impulsively and shoot up a building? No. Because they're banned officially.

Can someone plan out a shooting, buy multiple weapons, and end up totally massacreing a town whether or not guns are banned? Yeah. It'd just take more time to acquire said weapons.

And about the battering ram comment--if they're willing to kill you, I'm sure they'd be willing to make a bit of noise, if what they wanted was really that important. Do you have bars on EVERY window? Do you have protection from EVERY entrance?

That's kind of a defeatist attitude. You've given up before the fight has started.

Sure, owning a gun and knowing how to use it effectively to defend yourself are two different things. So why not do both? Why not get some training on how to defend yourself with it too?

Foolish? Sorry, I don't think it's foolish to want to be able to protect yourself and your loved ones.

We have something in common

Yes. Now to convince you that Bush is the next antichrist and is plotting to take all scientists hostage so he can build a floating palace and rule the world from way-up-high.

/exaggeration

Seriously though, I'm glad I finally convinced you to be an AMD fan

My dad took me out shooting at a pretty young age because we had guns in the house (He was a police officer) and he taught me and my brother all about fire arm safety. If people are educated about guns, know how to handle them, how to treat them, that they are not toys, etc, there is little problem with them.

I'm of the belief that guns don't kill people. People kill people.

I think it's more safe to lock yourself and your familly in a closet than to depend on a 1 on 1 faceoff. Chances are, no one is going to be robbing my house with the intention of shooting and killing me. They want to take my money, and go. Cooperating is a lot better than risking my life.

But see, this I simply see as a level of bravery. I'm not brave enough to go up against someone.

JediKirby

I plan on purchasing a pistol in 375 days, upon my 21st birthday. I am also going to apply for a license to carry a concealed weapon, provided I can come up with a good enough reason to pu on the application. I live in a shady region, have been held up at knifepoint, and had an attempted carjacking (I drove off, and ran over the criminal's foot). My home has been robbed twice. I am buying a gun, wihtout a doubt. I don't care about all your little complaints about how bad they are.

[As for one-on-one, I would rather face a criminal and be killed, than allow anyone to harm my little brothers or sister. I would, quite literally, kill anyone who harms, or even attempts to harm, one of my siblings. I've already gotten into a few fights on behalf of my little sister, and don't regret recieving a single blow.]

Now being held at knife point is different. I'd love to have a gun right about then. Even if I'm being heald at gun point, having a pistol in my pocket is going to make me feel a whole lot safer. But if I can run, or hide? I'd rather do that.

JediKirby

unless they're little weak men like that one guy...

Well he didn't have a weapon, and he was trying to grab and snag. Not like he said "Hey you, punk, give me those bags." Had he threatened me, I probably would have let him take them, but because he just grabbed and tried to run, he didn't expect what I did at all.

is it just me or are all the massassians defending having guns american?

is it just me or did that not make sense?

Isn't a 1911 a little big for concealed carry? Seems like a more compact pistol would be better for that.

it ment that only american massassians seem to be cxomplaining at people who dont like guns.

also, outside the U.S. the only time where you will be shot because of seeing a robber is if you try to intervine. they realise that murder or attempted murder will make their capture a much higher priority.

so unless it is a mob/gang hit like the ones in melbourne or someone trying to get drug money, usualy the best thing to not try and be a hero.

If you think that burglers will always kill people to stop themselves from being found, you watch too many movies where the police dont use methods that are used in real life.

but if he kills you, and he doesn't get hit, he wont want any murder witnesses will he. especialy if the robbery is for drug money, just sacrificeing yourself wont make him leave if he knows about the brother and sister of yours. he will probably do something to them as well.

Wow, just wow. If you ever want to know my view on anything, just take whatever Mort-Hog says and say the exact opposite. Considering I have never once agreed with a single solitary point that Mort-Hog has ever made, I'm fairly certain of the validity of that method.

And alpha--yeah, you want to know why? Because the US is a nation where people have the freedom to own a gun, whereas most other places you can't. We also have a lot of robberies, murders, rapes, break-ins, and other various crime which, with proper protection, can be easily avoided.

Take ]-[elle's experience for example--he's been held at knife point and his house has been robbed. Now many, many Americans can relate to being mugged, being robbed, being carjacked, raped (unfortunately) or some other similar crime. The fact that they want to protect their precious possessions that they earned is their god-given right. With lethal force? If need-be.

We, in America, cherish hard work, and the fruits of our hard work. We want to protect it, and keep it safe. That's, for the most part, the American prerogative.

If that's not how you feel, fine, but that's how your average American feels.

that is what insurence is for. you dont need to worry about protecting those items because if they are insured, you can get them replaced. also, has nobdy in america heard of burgler alarms. one of my relitives has one and they live in a low crime area. Also, you could get something like security tags attached so that any place that the burgler tries to sell them to (if this place is not unscruplious that is), could possibly identify them as being stolen.

Wow, I can get insurance on my family and get them replaced? "Um, hi. I'd like to cash in on my new wife, please."

Everything else you mentioned is sound advice, though some might argue that a burglar alarm isn't a solid substitute for a firearm. It's a deterrent, but provides no self-defense.

Insurance doesn't always cover everything, family members can't be insured, security tags? Yeah, if the burglar is part of a halfway decent crime organization, those won't mean JACK. Burglar alarms work...sorta. By the time anyone gets there, the guy's usually long gone...but hey, at least they know you were robbed! or something.

your wife wont get shot if you dont try and be a hero and try and protect your tv and computer. they can be replaced and all the stuff on them can be downloaded again.

Not really. It's a pretty standard sized pistol. You can wear it in a holster under a coat and no one will no you're carrying it.

QUOTE]Originally posted by alpha1
but if he kills you, and he doesn't get hit, he wont want any murder witnesses will he. especialy if the robbery is for drug money, just sacrificeing yourself wont make him leave if he knows about the brother and sister of yours. he will probably do something to them as well. [/QUOTE]

Most gun carrying criminals carry them only for intimidation purposes. If they come across someone who shoots back, they are going to want to leave in a hurry.

I think the problem with people buyig guns for protection is that they don't know how to handle a the weapon. Most people who buy handguns don't even take them to the shooting range to familiarize themselves with the weapon, and that's a problem. Hell, they should have to take courses on gun safety and use before actually being able to buy their own hand guns

Some things can't be replaced. Insurance doesn't cover everything.

Say you're a writer, and your computer and discs house all your files, period. If someone takes them, you're fairly screwed, no?

Our burglar alarm was accidently set off after a brief power outage a few weeks ago. The police did not arrive for about 45 minutes. That's more than enough time to steal whatever is worth taking, and cause quite a bit of damge.

As far as "Be a hero, get yourself/others killed", if I were to rob a place, and a guy sticks a .45 in my face, my first instict would not be to shoot at him. my little brother and sister have been taught that during any emergency (fire, earthquake) they are to ecit the back door and proceed to the neighbors rather large back yard. If there is an intruder, however, they are trained to go into my sister's room (if safe), and hide in her closet behind clothes until we retrieve them. Also, if I were to be shot for trying to defend my home and family, there is no chance that the shooter would hang around and try to find anyone else. Guns are very loud, and you don't want to be around when the cops show up (they will come immediately if gunshots are called in, unlike the burglar alarms). After shooting, the first action is panic, which leads to running. Ever watch Cops? They rob a quickie mart, shoot, then run, as fast as they can. They don't wait around for the bullets to fly at them.

Many insurance companies have caps on whatthey pay out for goods stolen from your home. Usually, this is dependant on how much you pay per month. I pay X amount of dollars, ever month, with no incident, but one time, in 6 years, I get $50,000 of precious items stolen (such as family heirlooms, jewelry, wedding rings, and other items that can't be replaced) and they'll only cover $20,000. Screw insurance companies. Sure, carry some insurance, so they replace my TV or stereo, but a gun ensures my family and precious items are kept.

I've been shooting pistols at the range for a nearly 5 years now, and I know how to handle a firearm. A 1911 isn't too large to conceal (unless one is a tiny, scrawny, puny little shrimp), but the hardest part is obtaining legal permission to do so. The licenses in California are issued by the county sheriff, whom I happen to be somewhat affiliated with. The only problem, as I mention previously, is a good reason behind my desire to carry the weapon. "I want to be/feel safe" won't cut it.

[I think I also ought to mention that San Bernardino, where I live, has the highest murder per capita (MPC) rate in the US. Most people can claim that Washington DC holds that title, but if you read carefully, that statistic covers cities with a population over 500,000. San Bernardino has only 300,000. Our MPC rate is nearly a third higher than DC, making it the most unsafe citiy in the US.]

hmmm... have you EVER fired a rifle at something? sure a .22 won't go through much... but a rifle used for hunting anything larger than a rodent sized animal could easily punch through more than just flesh...

Ok, I'm going to throw a few things out here, you anti-gun people can respond as you'd like. My step-brother has shot one cougar and four coyotes within the past two years on his property all in defense of his children. For three of those animals (including the cougar) he used his .44 revolver that he was carrying on his belt. Had he only had a hunting rifle, locked in a safe, inside his house, his children may have been seriously injured or killed before he could do anything. Where I live, you can travel about 15 miles to the north, and you have a very real possibility of being attacked by a cougar, especially during wild fire season. Guess what, people live out there. Hunting rifles won't be able to protect them. Protection doesn't just mean "OMG leik wut fi a robb0rz kame @ me?!!" it means protecting your life from any threat, and in many parts of the U.S. (especially in the west) there are wild life populations that pose a threat (The same could be said for Canada, I'm really not sure how they get around this).

Now then, here, in my city, it takes the police between five and seven minutes to respond to an emergency call. Within those five to seven minutes, any number of things could happen. Not everyone lives in a densely populated city. Relying on the police to protect your life is borderline insane. Especially when the U.S. courts declare it is not the job of the police to protect your life. Let's move from my city, to any number of cities to the north, east, and west of my city. The police forces are far to small, and the cities are far too spread out to count on the police to arrive in time to save the day. Though I'm fully aware of the chaos that could break out in public situations where vigilantes decide to shoot at a criminal in a crowd, inside someone's own house should not be a concern for anyone aside from the family who lives there, and those who dare enter forcefully.

Wait, so anyone in the US can just get a permit to carry a gun around in their jacket? You'd have to make sure your affairs are in order before talking to anyone, lest the conversation go south and they just whip out their concealed weapon and start blasting away.

Do you people even realise how ridiculous the "People that are afraid of guns are idiots!" argument is? You know why people are afraid of guns? Because they're lethal weapons capable of firing supersonic pieces of metal into other people, possibly turning their flesh to hamburger, that's why! And anyone can have one"

I just love the pro-gun argument: "The USA has far more crime than all the countries that ban guns, so we need guns to defend ourselves!"... right. I wonder why it is that all those countries with no guns have less crime?

People running around with guns on the street mugging and raping left and right may be a reality in the USA, but it isn't in most civilised countries. And so we don't need citizens going about blasting each other away when one tries to steal another's candybar.

^ What he said.


And roach, I've had numerous encounters with wolves, bears, or other wild and potentially dangerous animals. I've never been attacked. These animals don't naturally pray on humans. If they find themselves on your property, they're most likely lost. You just have to stay indoors and they won't try to come in and kill you. After awhile, they'll leave by themselves.

As for encountering them in the wild, it's simply a matter of knowing how to behave. When it comes to bears and wild cats, you just have to make sure they don't feel that their lives or their offspring's lives are in danger. In other words, don't scream, don't do anything violent or noisy (that includes shooting a gun), and stay calm. When it comes to wolves, you just have to walk away slowly. They're territorial animals. If you see one, then you're tresspassing on his territory. If you're just leaving and you don't seem like a threat, they have no reason to attack.

Like I said, I've had encounters with these animals plenty of times, and I've never had to use a gun to defend myself.

Indeedio.

If someone, god forbid, breaks into my house and tries to rob me, I'll tell them, take what you want and go - I'm not getting in the way. It's common sense, put your safety first by not antagonising the situation.

Then call your insurance comapany, and your banks, and have your credit cards stopped :p

It's win win. The robber has my old stuff, Direct Line will give me new stuff, nobody gets hurts. You know what, it may be defeatist, but it works. And nobody gets hurt.

And for the record, I've got half a pool cue and a rounders bat to hand in case it's just kids. They can get a first class beating as far I'm concerned.

Like ]-[elle said, insurance doesn't cover everything.

Matt--I have 3 reasons the US has more crime.

1) Syndicated crime scene is the MOST sophisticated here

2) Other countries have a smaller population, or a religious/government that has an iron hold on them (India, China)

3) America is more a myriad of different races and peoples than anywhere else. More conflicts are bound to happen in that situation.


These were all compiled with a minute of thinking in common sense.

I didn't say nobody has guns, but due to the fact that they're illegal, far far far fewer people do.

Quote:

And about the battering ram comment--if they're willing to kill you, I'm sure they'd be willing to make a bit of noise, if what they wanted was really that important. Do you have bars on EVERY window? Do you have protection from EVERY entrance?

[/QUOTE]
Yes. Yes I do. I said that it would be impossible to use a battering ram, there is no space for it.


No, I said I'd hide. Hopefully, they'd never discover that anyone was in the house.

Quote:

That's understandable, and if you could be certain that you'd be safe, maybe even preferable. But how could you be certain that you'd be safe? What if you couldn't get to a cupboard in time? What if he opened it? What if he decided to make sure that you could never identify him to the police? Something to think about.

[/QUOTE]
Well firstly, seeing as I'll be on my own this week, thanks for making it harder for me to sleep!
I don't know about over there, but most robbers over here aren't desperate to get into more trouble than necessary. There's a big difference between being wanted for burglary than being wanted for murder.
The last time my house was 'robbed' (it wasn't actually broken into, I remembered later), my mum woke up in the middle of the night when she heard a noise out front. She went into the kitchen and saw a guy standing out the front looking for a way in. You know what he did when he saw her? He ran. Considering that most people who are desperate enough to break into someone's home are druggies, they're not exactly looking for a confrontation...