Ok here we go.....

First off I agree a lot with the issues here on both sides and to start off here is a list of crime for longhill township.

Longhill crime statistics

Note: I do not live in this area.

Notice how the aggrvated assults(and offenses against family/children) are fairly low compared to the thefts that there are(I know that burglary is low, just trying to get a point across).

Before you start even saying that I'm anti-gun, I'm the complete opposite. My family owns quite a few guns and I'm an avid hunter, but I know everyone has been talking about killings with guns, but there are incidents where we don't have to kill the person. If you can get a good shot on the leg or the arm, you can most likely incapcitate (sp?) them.(Yes I do know it is hard to get a shot off like that.) There are many alternatives; one for example is a special type of shotgun shells that could shoot nets.(Yes I also do realize that not everyone has a shotgun right next to their bed) Burglar alarms do usually help in most cases but there are a few incidents where they will not care and go after your belongings. There are even rarer cases that the burglar will threaten you or your family but it can happen and this brings up the point where you would need a gun to protect your family.

Oh well, that's my two cents.

RE: 1. OK, I'll grant that as I have no idea one way or the other.

2. I meant other first-world stable democratic nations: Canada, Western Europe, Australia, NZ, et al. And I meant the crime rate proportionally.

3. I don't really agree with that. Plenty of nations have many different cultures.

My main point was that there is nothing fundamentally special about the USA that would explain its high crime rate; other than the gun culture. A lot of the gun proponents seem in favour of the "I'd blow the criminals away!" argument.

1: This results in criminals being more likely to use violence to achieve their ends, because they'll feel threatened.
2: "Good citizens" shooting criminals is as much a crime as criminals shooting good citizens.
3: Accidents. If I'm not mistaken, Columbine was committed with legally owned weapons (excepting a semi-automatic, but it was legally purchasable for those over 21, so getting a friend to buy it would not have been too hard). If firearms were totally illegal, I doubt the kids that did it would have had underground connections to get firearms off the black market. There are other examples that support my case better (including a school shooting where someone used a gun found at home, again a legal one), but I can't recall the specifics.

Pate, it is very difficult to get a CCW license. The issuing agency does a thorough criminal background check, as well as requiring several endorsements from the local citizenry to ensure the applicant of is of good moral standing.

And not just anyone can own a gun, only those over 18, never convicted of a felony.

And of course, the firearm is always the last option during an intrusion, or any toher situation, but I'd rather have a gun and not ever use it and waste the money to buy it, than not have one, and get my family injured.

1) Well I dont know about sophisitcated (and I dont see how that's related specifically to firearms), but the US hardly has the highest crime rate in the world, organised or not. Havent done the research my, but I imagine Latin American countries would figure highly in those statistics.

2) Figures like population dont matter when you're talking about percentages.

3) Hah, that is so not true. Check the latest Census figures on race and ethnicity, about 75% of Americans and Australians are white, while in New Zealand that figure is even lower. Our culture is just as diverse as yours. Besides, I think you'll find that a surprisingly low number of homicides are race related. or even interacial.

Oh, and here's a fun fact about your gun culture:

Nearly 9 times as many children die from unintentional firearms-related injuries in the US than in the next 25 industrialized countries combined.

I didn't read the thread so excuse me if this has been said. I read some things in my Criminal Justice class and while US has the highest homicide rate, it has one of the lowest rates in pretty much everything else, specifically property crimes. I don't know if that has anything to do with guns, but I think it's something to take into account.

No, see, when you live on a 20 acre plot like my step-brother and his family do, and you're on the opposite end of your field that your house is, and in the tree line there's a cougar or a coyote stalking your children, it's pretty safe to say they're going to be attacked. Children and pets are attacked by these creatures in this area (especially cougars when they're forced down from the hills due to wild fires). I'm not talking about just wondering through the woods here, I'm talking about being on your own property, doing normal up-keep or just letting your children play.

(And thank you, survival-expert Flex, having lived in this region for most of my life and have done just about everything in this wilderness, I greatly appreciate your decision that I have no idea how the wild animals in this region react to humans or how to avoid being attacked...)

Jesus, you're all talking like America is some cesspool of crime and violence. It's not. i've never been mugged, nor do I personally know anyone who has. Get your heads out of the sand.

I could fix that...

Argh. I'm finding it hard not to insult you here, as none of your reasons hold up at all. Let's disect them, shall we?


Hmm... As I recall, the two most significant criminal organizations are the Mafia (based in Italy, and still is quite active today), and Al-Qaeda (base nation unknown, but outside of US). Both have members numbering in the thousands, and are very sophisitcated, having millions (if not billions) of dollars at their disposal, along with fairly modern technology and training, as well as good organisation. Oops; they're not criminal organizations, they're terrorist organizations! It seems the only difference between a terrorist and criminal organization is whether it is based in the US or not. As for the US, there's very little organized crime; your "common sense" may believe that almost all murders comitted with firearms are done by hardened criminals for life, but common sense has no place in an intelligent argument, that's what scientific research is for.


So... having 290 million (2-3 million less than the US population) is less populated, and hence you get lower crime! What a great idea! We just kick a state from the union (say, Florida!), and all our crime goes bye-bye! Or, if you mean they are less populated than the US, then that brings us back to our original question: why the US? Why does the US have the highest number and ratio of murders comitted with firearms in the world? Waht about nations like U.K., Germany, France, and Japan? Just because many Americans hate them doesn't mean we can ignore the fact that they have largely banned possession of handguns, and also have severely reduced deaths from firearms.


That is just laughable. The USA is actually not terribly diverse, despite all the propaganda placed in those grade-school textbooks. In most studies I've seen (which, sadly, are in scientific journals, which I cannot link to, unlike anectdotal popular media), that compare the US to other countries for the effectiveness of firearms, the foreign city has a higher percentage of minority groups, in every way you look, including both race and religeon. The only difference the other city had that could explain their lower murder rates was the lack of firearms. I'll list some articles later (I have to go rather soon), and you can go look up and read them, and see that it doesn't matter what anecdotes are provided, scientific evidence trumps all because it is reliable and true.

I'm in moderate agreement with you here. I live in a fairly dangerous community, but I've never found any situation where possession of a firearm would have helped me one bit. Anybody who's attempted anything I didn't like could be simply scared off; While I'm notably larger than normal (I'm 6'1", but still have normal proportions), it is simply the case that all these "threats" people see themselves as needing a handgun to protect themselves against aren't really anything at all. (most people who might have been a threat weren't interested in dealing with even an unarmed opponent)

1) Okay, except that's not crime. Al Qaeda (eff me for not knowing how to spell it) isn't as sophisticated as they used to be, and the Mafia scene is the heaviest in America, I'll wager, as far as actual crime goes at least. Maybe it's BASED in Italy, but there's not much there that goes on, really.

2) Wow, nottheking, your ignorance shows. Not only did you make absolutely no sense with your argument, you didn't even address the second part of that statement.

3) Yes, we are. I live in Alabama, ALAFREAKINGBAMA, and there's more cultures here than all but a select few European/Asian/African/South American/Australian countries (or provinces) could boast. That and last time I checked, White people are almost in the MINORITY in America, and quickly declining.

Also--most of the people that post here live in a nice, picket fence, very clean type of home. Only a few actually live within crime-filled areas. In fact, only ]-[elle really qualifies as having ever ENCOUNTERED crime. Don't you think that'd make his opinion all the more worthy?

1) Many, many countries have Mafia activity, including (but far from limited to) the US, Italy, Russia, Japan, and Australia. The American Mafia peaked in in the 60s and 70s before a series of FBI investigations curtailed their influence some. The Mafia certainly does still exist, but they hardly contribute to crime figures in the same way that they used to.

2) We're comparing percentages from Western countries with similar standards of living and ethnicites here. Note those key words: percentages, and Western countries. US, UK, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, etc etc.

3) 75% is NOT a minority!. That is from the 2000 US Census. Oh, and Alabama has a lower pecentage of whites than the US average, so what you're seeing is an exception.

At any rate, I don't see what difference it would make if there were only 5 white people in the whole of Alabama unless you're suggesting that all crime is committed by black people, or something.

That's a four year old census, buddy. Hardly recent.

The UK has similar crime rates, New Zealand an Australia...well they've cleaned up their acts. France is socialist, and Germany's too out there to have high crime rates :p

Actually I'm right in the middle and there have been quite few incidents downtown.

yes, everyone knows how an entire population can change in four years....
It's the most up to date data on the census website, buddy. Perfectly adequate.

Doesn't a big census only happen once or twice a decade anyway?

You'd be surprised.

Once every 10 years in the US. So that is, by far, the most recent data available.

Let's look at some historical evidence. According to a PDF from the Census Bureau available here, the percentage of Americans who are White and not of Hispanic origin is as follows:

(2000: 75.1%)
1990: 75.6%
1980: 79.6%
1970: 83.2% (sample)

So there has been a 8.1% decrease in the dominiant White ethnicity of America in the past 30 years. Yet you're claiming up to a 63% decrease in the past 4 years..... Surprise me.

Oh, and here's a link to the PDF, if you're interested.

wow. the incredibly undeniable evidence you've supplied there just bowls me over.

I'll post amazing evidence when I'm at home and have all my resources at my disposal. Until then realize the amazing hypocrisy in your statement.

Err, maevie was backing me up, and I provided figures and facts from the Census as evidence...

If you can provide proof of a change in the ethnic diversity of America to the tune of 185 million people (the difference between the white population and the black population, the majority to the largest minority) over the past 4 years, then I will eat my hat.

I don't know how a Gun Control thread became a race thread, but national statistics don't convince me very much. I don't live in Whiteyville, Massacheusettes, I live in California. In my paticular area, white people are the minority. Hispanics make up nearly 50% of the populus. Still, a certain race doesn't necessarily promote crime more than any other. People are the same evil people, no matter what color they are or what country their parents came from.

Back to the gun issue. I don't have problem with the legal purchase or use of firearms. They are a quite fun recreational item, as well as a powerful defense tool. I don't think everyone should be allowed to own a gn, but tightening the laws won't help much. People will still get weapons illegally (albeit a bit more difficult with tighter laws), while good, upright citizens, like myself, will find it more difficult (and typically more expensive) to obtain a weapon. That's hardly fair. Rather than tightening gun laws, we should tighten the penalties for commiting crimes involving possesion or usage of a deadly weapon. Increase the consequences, lower the amount of crime. Very simple, really, but most people don't/won't accept it.

I'm an American, and our family owns a 22 and a 9mm handgun. My father took us all out when he first purchased the weapons and showed us how to safely handle and fire each one. I'm far from a gun expert, and have only shot the guns on a few occasions, but we all feel safer with the guns in the house. It's a comfort knowing that we've increased our chances of scaring off and/or defending ourselves against would be attackers. There's one fact that many of you are overlooking. There are guns in the US and anyone can get one (legally or illegally). This may not be the case 20 years from now, but it is now, and knowing that we've leveled the playing field, is a comfort. If someone wants to hurt/kill you bad enough, chances are they are going to do it with or without a gun, but that's no reason to just hand over your life.

That being said; I dislike guns. It makes me nervous to see people carrying them in public. Guns aren't like other weapons. Any idiot can be effective with one (I know this because I've had decent results on the shooting range). In my version of a perfect world, we'd be murdering eachother with swords, axes, and lances instead, but this isn't a perfect world and guns do exist. I can't change the world with a post on a message forum, but I can level the playing field, and in this country, that's the best you can hope for. As long as guns are around, and criminals have access to them, I'd be a fool to not at least seriously consider getting one.

I'm not a gun person. I don't even hunt...I'm a vegetarian, but I wouldn't hesitate to defend myself and my loved ones, even if that means blowing someones face off and putting their head on a fence post to ward off future intrusions. Chances are nothing will ever happen where'd I'd be put in such a situation, but chances are, you may never be in a car wreck, or have a tornado hit your house, but you still have car and home insurance. Guns, in the world that many of us live in (not all of us), are simply a means of insurance.

I live in Louisville, Kentucky. Not a heavily violent area, although we have our moments. I've had 2 guns pulled on me. Once when I was in junior high (actually inside the school), and once when I was in high school (outside of my junior high school). I've never been shot, but I know how it feels to be in a potential life or death situation at the hands of someone holding a gun.

My brother was threatened by a group of skinheads just a day or so ago, while sitting outside of KFC. They thought that he and his friends had been involved in the egging of one of their members' cars. They ran up on him and his friends with brass knuckles, and chains, and threatened to kill them if they found out it was them. My brother is considering buying a gun, and I think it's a good idea, if he can learn when he can and can't use it, legally. What's one less skinhead?

That's my unenlightened opinion.

Not even Germany during the Holocaust saw the ethnic percentage shift as much as your saying America has. Taking into account the birth rate, death rate, and the percentage of the other ethnicities, a shift of ethnicity percentage you are talking about is mathematically, and logically, impossible. Where you get off saying whites have become a minority in the last four years is beyond me. Either show where you are getting this completely ridiculous claim, or drop it.

77.1% as of January 1st, 2004. September 14th if it was the ethnic background part they updated. Whitey is making a comeback.


My stance on guns: Owning a gun shouldn't be a right, it should be a priviledge. Those that have shown they can handle the responsibility of a gun(getting a license, background check, keeping clean records) should be allowed to own one.

In most debates you post on you seem to think you know about one entire topic. All of Iraq, all of the army, all of the Canadians, all of America. It's very obvious that most of the time you don't know what your talking about. Ex. The Iraq War thread.

Belive it or not, people in America aren't THAT different then everyone else. Sure each nation is different, but we are still all people and we all still think pretty much the same. Everyone in America doesn't NEED a gun. No crap Americans want to protect and cherish their things...LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD. There are parts in America that aren't safe at all, there are also places all around the world where it isn't very safe at all.

/me waits.

First, I just realize my last post doesn't sound sarcastic, like it should have. Which is lame.

Second, I'm far too tired to debate this further, but I do know that I never said Whites were in the minority, just that they were close to it, and were approaching it.

Third: SAJN, stfu. I didn't say all americans want and/or need a gun. READ MY POST. I said some, or rather MOST, Americans want the freedom to own a gun (the reason the law is still in effect).

Fourth, Differences in racial AND religious backgrounds is what my original statement was--if you're going to tell me all of the white people in America are also good, Christian people (note--not saying all Christians are good or all good people are Christians), then you're just ignorant.

Fifth, people outside the US ARE different in many aspects. Not a lot of them agree with the capitalist system, not many of them agree with our republic system, not many of them agree with much of anything we say on any level.

Sixth, I've just thought of this. Maybe the reason we so easily accept guns into our society is that we, as a nation, have always grown up with guns. This is just a thought I'm putting out there.

Seventh, I haven't played a game of Warcraft 3 in nearly a week, I've been working too hard, so don't expect to see me until tomorrow morning at the earliest.

Number 2 is a cop out. 77% is no where near a minority nor is it approaching a minority. 77%, in Constitution terms, is a super majority. You just don't want to admit you made a stupid statement in the heat of the moment. Unfortunately, that seems to be the norm among people anyway.

Ok, now it's turning personal.

*BANG*

Thread is dead.