Have you ever given a Christmas present to a Jew? What was their response? Do Jews give out Christmas presents? What do you think?

All the jews I know are messianic and so they regard christmas just the same as many christians.

That's funny since there isn't such a thing as messianic Jews. As a reform Jewish man, I can say that I wouldn't take offense to getting a Christmas gift, but it's not customary. However, with my family we have intermarried a lot of Christian women, and as such, alot of us celebrate Christmas. But not as the birthday of Christ, and more of a day to give each other gifts and like Santa Claus... You know, the true meaning.

free stuff is free stuff... no matter what religion you belong to

My sister-in-law is Jewish and she celebrates Christmas for the family/holiday aspect of it.

"Don't you see guys Christmas is about presents."

Damn right.

I don't think very many people actually celebrate the 'religious' aspect of Christmas.

But surely the Jews have Hanukkah and whatnot for which to celebrate with family and things, so they don't really need Christmas? And isn't Hanukkah some time in December as well?
Also, do Jews celebrate the birth of Abraham, or the many other prophets?

Christmas, whatever your religion, is a damn good excuse to spend quality time with friends and family, eat, drink and be merry.

Pressies? Well, whatever floats your boat - I know my mum and dad's ordered me an iTrip, and we're off to buy me a new pair of jeans since I finally grew out of my favourite pair about 4 months ago (they were a 28" waist, and I am now more a 31").

I <3 Christmas.

grew out (read: got fat)

The only Jews I know are "half" Jewish (one parent Jewish, the other Christian), so they celebrate both Hanukkah and Christmas.

Especially since Jesus wasn't actually born around this time of year. And earlier celebrations varried on date, anyway. Some were in January.

Yeah, christmas isn't just a religious celebration, it's a national holiday, and many people celebrate it who aren't Christian. My mum and I have always seen christmas as a reason to eat too much, drink too much and spend way too much money on the people you love.

My boyfriend is Jewish, but his family isn't practicing. They'll acknowledge christmas (maybe get a tree, eat lots) but don't really get into it the way my mum and I do. Apparently they've bought me a heap of presents this year though...

You know Christmas really isn't a Christian holiday. It was actually a heathen holiday that was declared to be "Christian" by some pope. No mention of celebrating Christmas is found in the Bible. So, our family doesn’t really celebrate Christmas with any religious elements in it.

Wasn't Jesus born around April sometime and then in the Dark Ages the dates of holidays were changed to dates closer to pagan holidays to try and convert more people to Christianity?

Christmas was originally a pagan holiday celebrating the Winter Solstice. It was also an Egyptian festival in honor of Horus, I believe.

Jews like Chinese food on Christmas.

I thought this, too, so I did a little research. Turns out that during the reign of the Roman Empire (which was Pagan), something-or-other was being celebrated by Pagans, so Christians decided to celebrate something during this time of year as well. The same thing happened with Easter, except we kept the name of the Pagan goddess in the title. There are still elements of Christmas that most Christians do not realize are of Pagan origin, such as Yule (which isn't really common anymore) and Mistle-toe.

No, celebration of Christmas is not found in the Bible. I am assuming you are referring to Jer. 10:3-5, which states (NIV) - "For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good."

It is referring to an ancient Pagan worship practice where Pagans would cut a tree out of the forest, fasten it in place, and chisel it into an idol, and cover it with gold and such. And no, use of the Christmas tree did not originate with Martin Luther, either. The first record of decorating a Christmas tree is traced back to Germany in 1521. There is no evidence to support that Martin Luther was the first to use it.

So, that's my history lesson for the day.


[edit: Here's a site, complete with quite a fair share of references.]

Wait... What?

Is this a joke, or serious?

Quite serious. Jesus was born nowhere around this time of year. We do not know a specific date, but we know approximately what season.

Here's some information about the origins of various Christmas traditions. Despite the site's unprofessional look, they're information appears to be completely accurate according to history.

Interesting... I've sent you a PM, figured it'd be better to talk about it outside of this thread.

I edited my last post and added a link. If you have anything else you want to know, just pm me.

Does anyone else find the word heathen to be somewhat offensive? I know that strictly it means anyone not adhering to one of the three 'main' religions, but it has... derogatory overtones. Atleast to me.

Ah, dictionary.com's second definition seems to sum up what I mean. Categorising not being religious with being uncivilised seems somewhat unfair.

[edit] who knew you could screw up tags when they're put in automatically for you!!

Listen -- I don't care if you're Chrisitan, of if your Jewish, but god **** please STOP PLAYING CHRISTMAS CAROLS...those song have a purpose, and their purpose is to be sung on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. Not in the middle of Algebra with 5 minute songs on a 1 disk album on a loop, so you end up playing the same song 6 times in the same day, driving you crazy to the point you can't work and hate Christmas even more.

I'm sorry, am I ranting? Oh well. I usually try to care about your feelings and try to say words the nicest way possible. Sorry, but now isn't one of those times.

It seems to be more recently in history that it's become something derrogatory. Lots of words seem to becoming offensive to someone lately.

Since when? Did they change that recently.

That would depend on the make up of the family as there are households with Jewish and Christian family members. A Jewish-only family isn't likely to celebrate Christmas, but a family with a both might celebrate both.

Change what? Members of the Jewish faith don't believe that the coming of the Messiah has occured. "Messianic Jews" are just Christians who want to keep kosher. If anything they're the closest to "true Christians" as you can have. The faith originally required you to be Judaic, and then convert to Christianity. But to get more followers, Peter allowed Gentiles to join the Church. This is why now there is a STRICT separation between Christianity and Judaism, and why it's frowned upon for an Orthodox Jew to marry outside of Judaic culture. Anybody who would be considered Gentile (which is impossible to determine now because of the "taint" if you would) is not suitible for mariage. *shrug* I'm reformed, but I don't think Messianics are really Jews... They're just Kosher Christians.

I find it kind of amusing how you guys are saying "Christmas isn't a christian holiday", when the name literally means Christ's Mass.

Granted, us Christians ripped the holiday off of a couple other things, but the holiday of Christmas is still a christian holiday, wether or not people celebrate it as such.

But that's only if you want to get really technical about it

Well, it's not like Jesus really kept the Jewish traditions either. The Sabbath is the one that comes to mind. I love when he says (paraphrase) "The Sabbath was made to serve people, not for people to serve the Sabbath"

Hey, don't accuse me of being overly PC! I hate the current state of not being able to say anything without stepping on someone's toes. I was just pointing out that the word sounds somewhat offensive, I'm not suggesting it join the ranks of the hundreds of terms that may no longer be used, just that maybe people use it in a way not strict to it's definition.

No, I imagine several hundred years ago 'heathen' would have been far more derogatory than it is today..


Also, the various pre-Christian religions in Britain (I deliberately avoid the word 'pagan') believed in the concept of 'laylines'. Occassionally, 'laylines' would cross, and there were various 'magical properties' at this point.
When the Christians came over, in order to force everyone to convert, they built churches on these layline points. If you look at very old local maps outlining the position of laylines, you'll find that the crosspoints mark the position of slightly less old churches. So even the position of the churches is due to the pre-Christian religions.


Also, what is interesting... The Biblical story of Adam and Eve, and Cain and Abel, it is all extremely similar to the story of Re, Shu and Tefnut, Geb and Nut, and Osiris and Isis and Seth and Nepthys in ancient Egyptian mythology..

It appears that the word 'heathen' also refers to the early Germanic religion. I'm not sure if this is an original meaning or a modern meaning like 'neo-paganism'.

You seem to be attacking me, so perhaps you misread my post. I agree with you 100%.

The verse you refer is only talking about idols because Jeremiah is found in the Old Testamount, before Christ.

You guys should really listen to stat. His post has more wisdom than the rest of them combined.

I will celebrate midwinter Do you all buy presents? I do not. I managed it to get out of the way of all that christmas feeling so far. Quite good this year.

I didn't accuse you of anything. Thanks for proving my point. :p
No, Flirbinc is exactly correct. Heathen refers to those who follow Germanic Reconstructionism and/or the Norse. "People of the Heath."

Mort, if you read Neal Stephenson, you'll learn that the Sumerians invented absolutely everything in terms of mythos and cosmology and every single culture since then has just been robbing them and changing names. Or something to that effect.

Alternately, depending how religiously oriented one may or may not be, you could either go for some sort of Jungian collective unconscious explanation, or some sort of general revelation idea. Both of which more or less boil down to there are similiarities in so many mythos because people are people everywhere.

General revelation would take it a step further and posit that all people have similar beliefs [or desires that create beliefs to fulfill them] because they were all created by one creator and placed in a world also created by said, and certain things are natural results of this condition.

For a brief example there is the argument that eg god is not a necessary condition for morality, or as i hear it more often, that christians didn't invent morals, therefore morality without christianity [or some sort of god-belief] is entirely possible. The counter-position is that of course christians didn't invent morality, morality was a general revelation imbued in humanity or the world as it were by god from the beginning, so it should be no surprise that many cultures have many similar ideas about morality.

[now both the argument and counter in those forms are somewhat weak, but they could be developed more had i the time and motivation. mostly it was just as an example]

Technically, a Messianic Jew is one who is born into Judaism (so they have a true Jewish herritage), and believes in Christ. I'm also not sure where you get the idea that being Jewish was originally required for Christianity.

be that as it may, it may not have orgionally been derogatory, but it became attached to the more deragatory meaning of uncivillized brutes (who didn't happen to practice christianity :)) and has only recently (well comparatively) become less derogatory.

Hmmm, I hadn't considered the Sumerians. The cultural spread is hardly surprising, I suppose. But the real 'test' of general revelation would be to find some mythology that would have developed totally independently, like Australian Aborigines or something, and then see if there are any striking similarities between them. I think the Australian Aborigines have the oldest continuosly maintained cultural history on Earth, of 50 000 years or so.