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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → Human Cloning...
12
Human Cloning...
2005-01-10, 11:20 PM #1
Any thoughts? If you want a civilised, nonthreatening debate, now's your chance.

Sorry, I couldn't be ****ed reading all the past posts, I don't if this has come up before or not.
Ma tana ka aha...
2005-01-10, 11:32 PM #2
The world's population is already too high, the last thing we need is more people.
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2005-01-10, 11:50 PM #3
You won't get "more people", the purpose of 'cloning' is to clone human organs for use in heart transplants and the like.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-01-10, 11:51 PM #4
And it's a touchy subject because if you say "Well what about couples who want a child of there own", if I have a wife and we clone myself, or herself, and she gives birth to the clone, it really is not our child. It's the original parents (her parents or my parents).

Personally I only find use for cloning parts. Lungs, hearts, livers, etc. to use in organ donation and nothing else.
I can't think of anything to put here right now.
2005-01-11, 12:46 AM #5
Quote:
And it's a touchy subject because if you say "Well what about couples who want a child of there own", if I have a wife and we clone myself, or herself, and she gives birth to the clone, it really is not our child. It's the original parents (her parents or my parents).


That's exactly the same with adoption.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-01-11, 12:50 AM #6
Actually it's more like giving birth to a sibling. :eek:
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2005-01-11, 2:26 AM #7
Cloning to get replacement organs would be sensible. Otherwise it would be quite nasty and technocratic. If whole human clones were generated for some predesigned purpose, it would become problematic once the clones get old enough to disagree with that purpose.
Frozen in the past by ICARUS
2005-01-11, 2:47 AM #8
Quote:
Originally posted by lassev
Cloning to get replacement organs would be sensible. Otherwise it would be quite nasty and technocratic. If whole human clones were generated for some predesigned purpose, it would become problematic once the clones get old enough to disagree with that purpose.


What exactly would be the point of that, though?

The process of 'cloning' would result in giving birth to a child, much the same as in vitro fertilisation. The child is going to have exactly the same genetic code as the test subject, but that's all. They're not going to be some blank mind to be used to amass an army of mindless robots, no moreso than any other human. They are simply going to look like the test subject, not think like them. (and it's not even certain that they will look like them. There were some cloned kittens a while back, and they had greatly varying features)
'Cloning' a full human being would just be very very expensive in vitro fertilisation.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-01-11, 2:51 AM #9
Quote:
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
What exactly would be the point of that, though?


Indeed. You answered your own question. If cloning become easily and widely available, I have no doubt there would be efforts to clone some "great men", and those ordering the cloning would assume they would get more military / political geniuses, more outstanding scientists, more super soldiers, etc... But in the real world, the clones themselves might not agree.
Frozen in the past by ICARUS
2005-01-11, 3:17 AM #10
Quote:
and those ordering the cloning would assume they would get more military / political geniuses, more outstanding scientists, more super soldiers


but they wouldn't be geniuses.

They'd be no different from anyone else.

Einstein had children, and they were not geniuses. Einstein had siblings, they were not geniuses.

If you 'cloned' Einstein, you'd basically be having his children. There's no reason to expect them to be like Einstein.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-01-11, 4:41 AM #11
Genetic code may determine some traits, but for personality and preferences and skills, the environment a person grows up in/lives in also plays a major role.

2005-01-11, 5:27 AM #12
Quote:
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
If you 'cloned' Einstein, you'd basically be having his children. There's no reason to expect them to be like Einstein.


Not really. His children had 50% of their genetic material from their mother. His clones would have 100% from him (unless genetically altered during the procedure).
Frozen in the past by ICARUS
2005-01-11, 6:28 AM #13
The worlds population is already to high considering we don't have a natural preditor cloning already made humans would simply compound the fact.
2005-01-11, 7:20 AM #14
I'm actually torn on this issue, because I'm not sure if I believe if life begins at conception, making the embryo a human, or if life begins during one of the trimester stages of pregnancy. To me, calling an embryo a human would be like calling strepthroat a turkey because their both just a mass of cells, but I really dont know what I want to believe on this issue and no one really knows the truth. Unless you want to listen to the Catholic Church which even believes that your sperm is sacred. Which means when I kicked kids in the nuts back in the day that I aborted 80 million babies.

So, I'm not sure. But once I need a new liver and some dead dork won't give me his because he didnt opt to be an organ donor, then I'll probably be all for it.
"Those ****ing amateurs... You left your dog, you idiots!"
2005-01-11, 7:22 AM #15
Quote:
Originally posted by MechWarrior
The worlds population is already to high considering we don't have a natural preditor cloning already made humans would simply compound the fact.


We could clone velociraptors to take care of that problem. Or genetically engineer werechucks. Think about it, during a full moon the woods would erupt with the howls of demonic woodchucks raving for human flesh.
"Those ****ing amateurs... You left your dog, you idiots!"
2005-01-11, 7:24 AM #16
Well that might work in theory... hmmmmmm... that gives me an idea for a photochop.
2005-01-11, 7:54 AM #17
Quote:
Originally posted by Schming
I'm actually torn on this issue, because I'm not sure if I believe if life begins at conception, making the embryo a human, or if life begins during one of the trimester stages of pregnancy...


Bah... I don't know if any seriously thinking person would really, deep inside believe the embryo isn't already a human. The difference is that for the masses it might be beneficial to "explain" that's not the case, and thus try to guarantee some possibilities for research. Well, at least that's what I believe.

However, I have no problems with the idea of using human embryos for scientific experiments and projects approved by proper ethical committees.
Frozen in the past by ICARUS
2005-01-11, 8:30 AM #18
It's pointless to clone full humans, because there is no reason. Body parts would be great, because given enough time, someone can replace a liver, kidney, etc or even possibly an arm or a leg that's at least partially functional. With that, I think there'd be a very small chance of tissue rejectin because it effectively IS the same tissue.

More debateable is the process of cloning a full human for experimentational purposes, such as closed behavioural experiments and the like... although that's the sort of things the <insert generic group> extremists want to stop.
Hey, Blue? I'm loving the things you do. From the very first time, the fight you fight for will always be mine.
2005-01-11, 8:34 AM #19
since were talking about clones...

attack of the clones made me hate star wars (for a day or two)
|-|E|_|_O
2005-01-11, 8:35 AM #20
Quote:
Originally posted by Schming
the Catholic Church which even believes that your sperm is sacred.


Every Sperm is Sacred, Every SPerm is great. when a sperm is waaaaasted, god gets quite irate!
My girlfriend paid a lot of money for that tv; I want to watch ALL OF IT. - JM
2005-01-11, 9:07 AM #21
Quote:
Originally posted by Schming
I'm actually torn on this issue, because I'm not sure if I believe if life begins at conception, making the embryo a human, or if life begins during one of the trimester stages of pregnancy.


On that topic I once heard a rabbi say: "If I get it right from what I hear in my community, life begins when the dog is dead and the kids are out of the house."
Sorry for the lousy German
2005-01-11, 9:09 AM #22
I can think of one other fruitful purpose to cloning other than organ harvesting, and that is psychological research. Clones will provide the opportunity to further study the nature vs. nurture bit. We will be able to better determine exactly how much of a role genetics play in personality and intelligence by studying clones.

Of course, you will have odd people looking to clone foo-foo in the hopes that the cloned pet will be like the old one, but I tend to agree with Mort-Hog; they will most likely be disappointed.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-01-11, 9:51 AM #23
Quote:
I'm actually torn on this issue, because I'm not sure if I believe if life begins at conception, making the embryo a human, or if life begins during one of the trimester stages of pregnancy.


An embryo is life. It is alive. It is doing everything required to be 'life' (Mrs. Gren!).
But it isn't human life, by any stretch of the imagination.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-01-11, 10:10 AM #24
Quote:
Originally posted by Freelancer
Clones will provide the opportunity to further study the nature vs. nurture bit. We will be able to better determine exactly how much of a role genetics play in personality and intelligence by studying clones.


But would those people accept that they have been born for an experiment?
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2005-01-11, 10:23 AM #25
Boys from Brazil!!!
Stuff
2005-01-11, 10:36 AM #26
Quote:
Originally posted by Echoman
But would those people accept that they have been born for an experiment?

If they were raised properly into understanding what they were "made for" but still that they are people like others, just used to benefit science, probably they'd be okay with it.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2005-01-11, 11:36 AM #27
Quote:
Originally posted by Echoman
But would those people accept that they have been born for an experiment?


Would it matter?
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-01-11, 11:51 AM #28
I would think engineering a person solely for the purpose of being used is completely unjust (utilitarian in that the worth of a person is then determined solely by what it can do). Using cloning as a means to continue the species seems foolish, since an unchanging system would fall prey to disease, defects, etc. It also seems a little off to me just because this isn't exactly "perfected" yet, and one might worry about "mistakes."
Quote:
Originally posted by Schming
Unless you want to listen to the Catholic Church which even believes that your sperm is sacred. Which means when I kicked kids in the nuts back in the day that I aborted 80 million babies.

I'm 100% sure that isn't the case. I've heard the idea that the Church teaches this before, but I'm not sure where this idea started. It is respected as a part of you, and a special part due to what it is (half your genetic material, and part of the procreative process). It is not held in the same regard as a human, since it isn't. Certain things are not considered okay, such as donating sperm, etc. I could discuss at length, but at the risk of derailing the thread.
Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....
2005-01-11, 12:14 PM #29
"You're too young to understand this, but this is CRAZY! You used to live in my BALLS!"
-Dave Chappelle
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2005-01-11, 1:36 PM #30
Quote:
Originally posted by Arden Lyn
Begun, the clone wars have.


Over played but still funny!
2005-01-11, 1:49 PM #31
how exactly would you clone a part of a human? say I needed a new lung or a heart because the old one was deseased... how would you "grow" a new heart for me?
The Gas Station
2005-01-11, 1:56 PM #32
I've noticed a lot of people here have said the world's population is too high. I don't believe that's the case. The problem lies in people congregating when there already a lot of people in a given area. If people just spread out more there would be a lot less problems.
"The only crime I'm guilty of is love [of china]"
- Ruthven
me clan me mod
2005-01-11, 3:26 PM #33
This is assuming, hypothetically, that it is possible to clone humans, which it is not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a recent study come out that showed that it was not possible to clone humans, monkies, and several other animals, because of the structure of something or other that was critical for colneing?

Quote:
An embryo is life. It is alive. It is doing everything required to be 'life' (Mrs. Gren!).
But it isn't human life, by any stretch of the imagination.


Why not? Because it doesn't look like a human? Because it not yet as smart as a human? It is an organism which differs from a lump of cells, in that all the cells are working together for the sake of the organism, not the individual cell, as in the case of an cell colony.
2005-01-11, 3:35 PM #34
Quote:
Originally posted by Mort-Hog

But it isn't human life, by any stretch of the imagination.


why not? Define "human."
2005-01-11, 3:36 PM #35
Quote:
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet
This is assuming, hypothetically, that it is possible to clone humans, which it is not.


You tell us, Obi. :rolleyes: You know, religious whackos said the same thing about it not being possible to put a man on the moon. In 1969.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-01-11, 3:37 PM #36
Isnt the whole concept of cloning to use organs for transplants, etc the whole reason they came up with Stem Cell research...?
2005-01-11, 3:53 PM #37
when my wife gets too old and nasty looking, i'll simply get out my clone of her, do away with original... and BINGO!! new young wife!!
Code:
if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}
2005-01-11, 4:05 PM #38
Quote:
Originally posted by Temperamental
Isnt the whole concept of cloning to use organs for transplants, etc the whole reason they came up with Stem Cell research...?


Well, there can be stem cell research without cloning. Stem cells are just any undifferentiated cells. You can already do a lot of research with them without cloning, and even apply some of it to medical purposes. Cloning just would ensure a perfect histocompatibility, a trait of the highest desirability.
Frozen in the past by ICARUS
2005-01-11, 8:16 PM #39
Quote:
Originally posted by Emon
Actually it's more like giving birth to a sibling. :eek:


Actually it's more like giving birth to your husband or yourself.

I personally would rather adopt. There are thousands of children out there without homes.
I can't think of anything to put here right now.
2005-01-12, 2:40 PM #40
Quote:
Why not? Because it doesn't look like a human? Because it not yet as smart as a human? It is an organism which differs from a lump of cells, in that all the cells are working together for the sake of the organism, not the individual cell, as in the case of an cell colony.


It is an organism growing and replicating cells of itself.. pretty much like any foreign organism in your body - that is, diseases. It's not dissimilar from a cancer.

Up until the point where it develops a central nervous system, it is a senseless organism constantly reproducing cells and using the mother's resources to sustain its survival. There is nothing special about it. It is no different from any bacteria, or any other organism that sustains itself within your body. Destroying this organism is just like taking antibiotics to cure a stomach upset. You are killing bacteria.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
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