No, really, that's what it is. It's a collection of dividing cells indistinguishable from any other group of dividing cells.



Of course you're saying that 'you're right'. Otherwise you wouldn't have an opinion at all.

In my opinion, it's a cruel joke to play on a 13 year old mother and especially her child to not let an abortion occur, simply to teach her a lesson. Whoever made the decision was not looking at the big picture: that if this child is allowed to live, the quality of its life, unless adopted by another family, will be poor. Instead of this girl learning her lesson by the simple shock of being pregnant, she now has to live with this child? Her life is ****ed at this point, but boy, did she learn her lesson :rolleyes:.

back to the girl: do you really think 'the state' is going to give her The Pill? to a 13year old girl?

my parrents wouldent give it to me if i asked for it.

I'm surprised no one has noted how frighteningly dangerous this view is.

No.

It was so shockingly stupid, I thought it stood well on it's own.

I agree.

Also, Elana, the 'Pill' can be bought without consent from parents, etc.

In MANY places the pharmacist can refuse to sell the pill to someone.

And really, I don't think it's a cruel joke to not allow her an abortion.


Who got her where she was? Her and the equally responsible young man... or old man.. that laid her.

She's effing 13 man. Exceptions can be had.

She's a ****in 13 year old girl...Like most 13 year old girls she is
a.) irresponsible
b.) immature
c.) naive

Can you really blame her? Most likely it was an older guy who just used her...I really can't believe you would say she is to be blamed or that she is a complete idiot, or as the brilliant AkPiggott even said "deserves to be shot in the head". Yeah we have a lot of compassionate people on here...

Why not abortion? You think that kid is going to have a nice life, living in orphanages and what not? Let's face it, a fetus killed before it develops at all is not a person. It's not conscious, it has no cognitative ability, no personality, no awareness of the world. It is merely a mass of living tissue, with the potential to transform into a human. Some may say it is wrong to deny the fetus their potential life, but really is a human life THAT valuable? Personally, I don't think so. If we thought that way (which we do) then the world would be quickly overpopulated (and it's getting there).

A thirteen year old should not be having sex to begin with! Christ, if she gets pregnant (in this case she did) she isn't even old enough to hold a job to raise the child. If you can't keep your frigigng pants on, its your own problem.

I mean come on, there are over the counter contraceptives that are cheap, you can buy a box of condoms and contraceptives for under $20.

If you can't raise the child, don't spread your frigging legs.

And on top of the rape should allow abortion, you are not willingly spreading your legs. If you spread your legs, you should be willing to face the consequences. It's no different than doing drugs. After all its my ****ing body, why should they tell me what I can and can't do to it?

Rape victims didn't ask to have sex and did not willingly spread their legs. This 13 year old, and everyone else who gets pregnant as a result of consenting sex, said "Hey there, why not act like you are Moses and I'm the Red Sea".

She effing knows what her reproductive organs are for by that age, and effing knows the consequences, but effing decided to be irresponsible. Then she got effing pregneant. Ooops. Oh hey, heres a magic effing button, that makes responsiblity effing vanish. Granted she probably won't go effing around and effing get pregneant again, but hey that isn't going to effing stop anyone else from being effing stupid, now is it?

Really. Thats alot of effing, by the way.


What seems to make it past a few skulls, is that I AM PRO CHOICE. I just feel negating responsibility VIA the oops button doesn't set a GREAT precedent. Sex isn't an irresponsible act, damnit.

It's like "Hey, we want you to be responsible... but we don't care if you get pregneant, even if it is your fault." What kind of incentive is there to be responsible? THERE ISN'T ANY.

Not a good thing.

Holy ****, it's the second coming of the Messiah! I'm agreeing with Rob.

THE POINT OF THIS DEBATE IS TO NOT DEBATE IF A FETUS IS LIVING OR NOT.

Infact, that has NO PLACE IN THIS ARGUMENT.

The argument that is AT HAND is regarding the moral correctness of abortion negating the need for sexual responsibility.

Please people, it's an irrevelant point.

It's like bringing up ketchup at a mustard convention. No one freaking cares.


(Sorry, that just bakes my beans)

There is something called "adoption centers"...
My point of view is, no one under 18 should try to have a sexual relationship, I mean, lets say your 13, and you got a 13 year old girlfriend, your going to have those relations and expect that that will keep you united from six to possibly eleven years? Come on, be more realistic. Also, the girl was a fool, and so was the boy. There are more than enough reasons to not have sexual relations before the age of 18. Abortion is wrong, no discussion. I mean, its unfair to the child, atleast. If you don't want a child, then put him/her up for adoption. A child is the most precious thing man can create, and we treat it as a curse. People who support and chose the path of abortion are totally selfish and should not have had the right to live.

EDIT: FIXED

Remember, $20 at your local Wal-Mart can buy you a box of condoms and contraceptives. And it works.

You mean abortion?

Oh and here is an interesting fact. Each time you have an abortion you increase your chances of breast cancer by 1/3. But majority of doctors won't tell you that if they are killing your child off.

Quit crapping up an otherwise decent debate!

Cocaine feels good, cocaine is enjoyable, cocaine is social and cocaine is fun. There is no changing that, so what is 'wrong' with having cocaine for the sole purpose of feeling good, enjoying it, having fun? That is what I want qualified. The issue isn't about any particular 'argument', it's about a lack of argument.

Why are you harping at me about abstinence? Obviously we're past that point when the girl is 3 months pregnant.

The state tells you cocaine is 'wrong'. Find a better analogy

Martyn, yes the state tells me cocaine is wrong. However, it is my body. Just like it's the woman's body. If I want to stop off at the street corner, buy some cocaine from my dealer, come home and sniff it, why does it matter? Why should it matter to a cop if he finds cocaine on me, but at the time I am not injesting it? I'm only doing damage to myself, in the privacy of my own home.

And I am not arguing abortion is wrong based on that "A fetus is still a human because blah blah blah" or "God's plan". I'm for abortion involving rape and incest. And only rape when you call the police (but they give you that pill that helps). If you get raped and call the police, then discover you are pregnant, you should be allowed to abort the child.

If you are 16 years old and spreading your legs, that's your own damn fault and should be responsible for the child. If you are 23 years old and spreading your legs, obviously you are mature enough to know what can pop out from between your legs in 9 months, and can afford to go buy a condom. Hell they sell them at gas stations. Not that hard to acquire.

I'm against abortion cause I think it's stupid that the child has no say. I think it's stupid the state says it is legal because the woman has a right to her body, yet the woman does not have the right to snort cocaine and damage her body. I think it's stupid because doctor's fail to educate people that you will get breast cancer at like 25 if you have 5 abortions.

If my wife is gonna die because of the child, then yes it should be allowed. If my 16 year old daughter can't keep her panties on, that's her own fault. You should know what it takes to make a baby by the time you hit puberty. Lord I knew it before I was in the second grade.

And for the record I am not for the legalization of marijuana or cocaine. I simply am using it as a comparison.

Oh and finally, if you get pregnant (or get another pregnant) cause you are a dirty little slut who can't keep your pants on (male or female), then have to carry that child for 9 months, watch yourself get fat, go through the pain of labor and delivery, then give the child up for adoption, maybe you will learn then next time the guy asks for it, or the girl asks for it, you'll remember all that pain and suffering. That and you turned into a tub of lard.

So Rob, you would rather ruin a girl's life by not letting her get an abortion for the purpose of setting a good 'precedent' than let her push the 'oops' button and have another chance to lead a normal life that isn't ruined by an irresponsible decision made at thirteen?

The fact that the court said she isn't 'mature' enough is yet another argument for an abortion. She obviously wasn't mature enough to make a decision whether or not to have sex. Even reserving the 'oops' button for special cases, she is a special case. She's thirteen. Have some pity for the girl, ffs. Nobody should using this girl's life to prove a point.

"That and you turned into a tub of lard"


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAHAHA!!

Sorry, that just tickled me. I still think coke is a poor comparison, something better would be, oh I don't know, over-eating and becoming obese. That's perfectly legal, detrimental and what have you.

I agree with your ethos as far as 'blame' and 'responsibilty' are concerned, in that people should know better, and they should learn a lesson. The point where our opinions differ is that I think that the gravity of having an abortion on your head is lesson enough should the carrier choose to abort. If I had a daughter who somehow managed to get pregnant at 16 and wanted to abort it, I'd stand by her. I'm not even going to go through the ifs, buts, wheres, hows and whyfores of how she got pregnant.

Aborting is not an easy decision, and if my daughter felt it best, then fair play to her. I would also obviously stand by her should she choose to keep it, or to carry and then give away for adoption. That's what being a good parent is about as far as I can see.

She's 13. I don't know any 13 year olds that understand the consequences of getting pregnant. Then again, I don't know alot of 13 year olds that have sex. Either way, a few more years, say 2, and I'd agree with you. I say once you're in high school, it's your responsibility what happens down there. Really, sex doesn't hit most people until they hit the age of HS. This is one reason why health is mandatory for most freshmen, and it includes sex ed.

Then we should start educating people at an earlier age - say, 11, when I started to receive sex ed in school.

To be honest I got my sex education at 13 too. Year 9 in our system.

That's a good idea. So it obviously will never work.

My first sex ed was at age 11, but it was only about wet dreams and a little bit about the female reproductive system.. most of it went over our tiny little heads. They certainly didn't talk about contraceptives or anything at that age.

That's another thing. One of the largest problems I've noticed is that people see condoms as a preventative measure against pregnancy, and don't take into consideration the dangers of STDs.

I think that school sex ed programs should cover things like menstruation, masturbation, STDs, non-coital intercourse, and the like. Public schools, all too often, don't bother with these for fear of offending someone. I really wish that my school had covered these topics.

I also think that more open communication about the topic between child and parent - no matter how uncomfortable they (parent and/or child) may be with it - would greatly help with education, but, unfortunately, nothing can be done to enforce that rule without some very serious and very silly legislature.

The thing I always found sad was these girls could get pregnant so easily when many women that want to have children can't. This one woman that works in the same office just found out she has to give birth to a dead baby. These two girls one day asked me where they would get an abortion because they had gotten pregnant because they didn't use protection - and why? "Because it doesn't feel as good."

Personally, I believe that's it's a human life at conception (it's not like it's naturally going to turn into a dog in the womb) and think abortion is wrong. On the other hand, to each her own. If they want an abortion, they should be able to get it. If my 13 year old was three months pregnant and wanted to get an abortion, I would leave it up to her. I wouldn't be happy with my child having an abortion, but it would make her life easier and perhaps teach her a lesson. Yes, some people use abortion as a form of birth control, but it's a tough thing to go through. Maybe this will teach the girl to close her legs anyways - Pregnancy happens.

And now random fact time:
1/3 of all zygotes don't make it past gastrulation (basically they don't make it to being a fetus.) It's common for a woman to miscarry without even knowing she was pregnant.

It's a microscopic blob of nondescript cells.

So when exactly does it become a human being then?

Except that far more abortions occur than civilian deaths.

This is the same reason people can't compare Bush and the casualties in Iraq with abortion/euthanasia -- though one is more dramatically displayed, the other far outweighs it in magnitude.

This, my friend, is the million dollar question.

Does that make me rich? :p

Murder can end feuds.

I suppose problematic actions can be carried out to solve other problems. You certainly raise a good point. In the case of a murder ending a feud, a small problem was solved by creating a bigger problem. Is that the case with abortion? Is it a bigger problem for a child to be brought into the world by a mother who cannot support it, or for the child to be aborted?

so, you decide whether something is human or not based on appearance?