But not of people.



You know what I meant.

Zygotes don't attach to the uterine wall. Embryos do.

If 23 chromosomes come from a person...and 23 chromosomes come from another person...and, together, these combine to form another person...what is that, exactly?



It's a matter of species bias. I'll admit it - I value the life of a human over a head of lettuce, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.



I've tried to find any (relatively) non-biased data concerning signs of stimulation in a conceived child less than 6 weeks old, but I'm I've failed to locate it. But, then, lack of response to stimulation is not an inherent sign of "non-life." As Wikipedia points out, an impotent man is technically "not alive."

I actually meant embryo, not zygote. And it attaches within 5 or 6 days. And it only takes 15 days for a nervous system to begin developing, and somewhere around about 18 days, the heart starts beating. That's between 2-3 weeks, and usually way before most women would be aware of being pregnant, since it's not even enough time for a missed period. Around 30 days, it has a brain, eyes, ears mouth, kidneys, liver, umbilical cord, and a heart pumping it's own blood. (It has it's own blood around day 5-6, but it doesn't need pumped at that point.)

The earliest pregnancy test detects around 20mIU (measurement of the pregnancy hormone), which would be present until around the 8th day of conception, well after the embryo has attached to the uterine wall and received nourishment (and has it's own blood). However, few women would even suspect being pregnant that early, much less be taking a pregnancy test.

Only 35 days, and the embryo is clearly human:

That's only slightly over a month. And we can also see similar shape earlier than that (since it obviously doesn't just spontaneously take this shape on the 35th day).

Doesn't sound like it's hard to determine when it's human to me.

And just for the heck of info: 41 Generations of cell division take place before birth; only four generations after birth.


He also killed himself.
So much for that. :p


Indeed he does.

Congratulations, it has a brain by the time most of them are aborted, but it has the cognitive ability of an ant (and that's being very liberal). I kill ants everyday and do not feel bad because they have nearly non existent cognitive ability.

I love how you guys backpedal constantly.

1st, it's the mother's right to chose whether to have it or abort it.
Then, it's not really alive until whatever certain point.
Now, it's cognitive ability isn't worth noting.

I might point out, actually, that a born child's cognitive ability isn't exactly breathtaking either. After all, a chipmunk can do more.

To what shall you backpedal now?

(Watch out for the cliff you're about to fall off.)

Funny that I believe in all three.

Ditto. How is that backpedalling?

What about people in a persistant vegetative state? Their cognitive abilities are not exactly stellar, either, but I doubt that anyone here would hesitate to classify such an individual as human. Are you implying that humanity is determined by cognitive ability?

When you kill something, generally the worse you feel afterward, the higher the cognitive ability of whatever it was you just killed. If I killed my brother, I'd feel like ****. If I killed a chimp, I'd feel kinda bad, if I killed a duck, I wouldn't feel very bad. If I killed an ant, I would hardly bat an eye. If I killed a bacteria, I would probably be happy.

What if you killed a vegetable?

You posted a picture of a growing zygote composed of the amalgamation of two people's chromosomes. How does that support your argument?

Sorry to drag this up, I've not been about lately.

DogS, I wasn't saying those things were condonable, I was merely commenting on their legality, because someone asked about it. Frankly I think anyone who does that to an unborn child is a bit of a monster. But anyway, I'll read all the new stuff now I've cleared that up.

And now it's gone all biological.... oh nose!

nose? biology?

tough room...

<.<

Anyway, this is all waaaay over my head now, so I'm going ot run until things come back to stuff I know about.

And have been able to prove none.

Everytime he can't prove one, he goes on to something else.

By your logic, you wouldn't feel bad killing a born baby. The vast majority of animals have a higher cognitive ability than a 1 month old born child, so it should be ok to kill it. Or even a one year old child, for that matter.

None of your arguments quite fit together. And don't worry. I don't expect you to concede. You'd sooner be tortured than admit you're wrong about something.

What do you think this debate is about? If the fetus is a human, the mother should not have the right to have an abortion! That means that your statement has no bearing on the debate. Think before you post.

He's quoting someone else.

But it's also her right to live without an "unwanted parasite" leeching resources from her body.

Yeah, a "parasite" of her own making. Do you consider that grounds to murder someone? It's not like she didn't have a choice.

Murder for sex. That's responsible.

Following that logic, a rape victim wouldn't be allowed to abort.

If you haven't noticed by now, abortion is still allowed because in the end it all comes down to morals. Some people see nothing wrong with it. Get over it. Besides, how do you prove that a woman has the right to have an abortion? It's subjective.

Well? It's sad that the person got raped, but it dosen't help anything to go kill an innocent product of the crime. It's a human. You can't just say, "Oops, he/she is inconvietnt, let's kill him/her."

EDIT: Freelancer, law based on moral relativity is simply anarchy. We are not an anarchy.

Hate to break it to you, but actually you can.

Ok, bad, choise of words. I should have said "shouldn't".

My stance on impregnated rape victims: unborn life > your emotional well being.

That is all.

Too bad there are other factors to consider, such as the emotional and physical needs of the child which the mother may not be prepared for.

Put it up for adoption.

Edit: Yeah, I'm a little...blunt this morning.

This discussion now sucks.

It's against my better judgement to post this, but to say a fetus becomes human at some point implies some kind of means by which this happens, doesn't it?

Wouldn't producing some point at which this happens with no evidence to support it be logically unsound?

Guys, seriously, give it up. Its not your choice, plain and simple.

According to logic like this, Cocaine should be perfectly legal. Because hey, it's not my choice.

It's not. WHat someone decides to do with their body, and their life, it's their choice. WHo are you to tell them what they should or shouldnt do, or what they can/cannot do.

That doesnt make it right, nor does it make it wrong. It simply means, its none of your business. So back off.

But then you can argue if the "life" in the person's body is a seperate "life" than the person holding it. Then, if the person wants an abortion, she would not only decide for her own "life" but the decision of termination of an unborn "life" (that is, in a way, not just part of her body) . Then the argument goes in a complete circle and ends nowhere.

If you make the choice to be sexually irresponsible, than you should have to keep the baby. Not just the girl, the boy too.


Like I've said like 80 times, you buttered your damn bread. Now freaking eat it.

If i choose to irresponsibly have sex, and get pregnant, and then have an abortion... Despite your personal beliefs, despite if its right or wrong, despite whether or not you think its right or wrong, the bottom line is, it's my decision, not yours, not anyone else's, my own.

going by that logic, you shouldn't be able to tell me wether or not im allowed to murder my sister. its none of your business, so back off

Forty million less Americans is our business, and were sure as heck going to try to do something about it. That's like an entire nation being murdered for convenience.

For some reason the chances of a rape victim becoming pregnant are very low



http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_29.asp#But%20many%20laws%20would%20allow%20for%20this%20exception.

Just thought i'd add that random comment ^^

[edit: that link doesn't work for some reason... :S]