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I hate this place.
2005-05-21, 8:18 PM #41
Quote:
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
He committed the crime, and his sister pays the penalty?


There is no correlation between the two.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rob
Oh, I get it.

Innocent people deserve to indirectly suffer.

AMERICA ROCKS.


Innocent people never deserve to suffer.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2005-05-21, 8:43 PM #42
Wow miccheck.... 6 posts and already probably going to be banned. Is that a new record for Massassi?

Anyway, I agree with what Demon_Nightmare said, don't judge everyone on something that only a few people did. If everyone was judged by what a small group of people did, we'd all be seriously screwed.
2005-05-22, 12:36 AM #43
The problem is not the death penalty itself. The problem is bureaucracy. If criminals were executed the day after their sentence, and everyone who had committed a capital offence was executed (and those who had not were not), the system would be 100% better, in my opinion.

Also, a proper system lacking mazes of red tape would let the killer live long enough to harvest his organs, and execute him as soon as that was done.

I realise I probably sound rather bloodthirsty here, but I have no special desire to see anyone dead. I just want a system that actually deters crime, is all.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connection Problem
What problems does Canada have that are this idiotic?


Hmm, maybe our public health care system? Free health care = good. Crappy health care = bad. I have an uncle who would be dead of cancer right now had he not gone to the States for proper treatment.

Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
I never understood the idea of being proud of something that I didn't help to build/create.


It's known as love, my friend. When you care about the well-being of someone or something (say, a family member or close friend), you tend to feel pride in their accomplishments.

It may be a foreign concept to some here, but there are people in the world who actually love their countries.
So sayest the Writer of Silly Things!
2005-05-22, 3:14 AM #44
The 'love' for your country is in the same way that a young child loves his mother, as a perfect and unquestionable figure of wisdom.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-05-22, 11:11 AM #45
Quote:
Originally posted by Brian
Then tell me how you're proud to be an American.

I am still proud to be American. In addition, I am proud to not be from Chicago. I still support the death penalty.
Made you look
2005-05-22, 11:50 AM #46
Quote:
Originally posted by Wookie06
There is no correlation between the two.



Innocent people never deserve to suffer.


Yeah, I hope everyone else picked up on the sarcasm..
2005-05-22, 11:51 AM #47
Quote:
Originally posted by Krig_the_Viking
The problem is not the death penalty itself. The problem is bureaucracy. If criminals were executed the day after their sentence, and everyone who had committed a capital offence was executed (and those who had not were not), the system would be 100% better, in my opinion.



Thats the stupidest thing I've EVER heard.

That COMPLETELY defeats the purpose of the appeals system.

The real sollution should be in SPEEDING UP the appeals process.
2005-05-22, 12:05 PM #48
Patriotism is merely the assertion that your country is great because you were born in it. Dumb.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-05-22, 12:53 PM #49
Quote:
Originally posted by Freelancer
Patriotism is merely the assertion that your country is great because you were born in it. Dumb.


I don't see what is wrong about having a bit of feeling for the community that you were raised in, and hope to contribute to.

I have that feeling for the whole of human society at large, but this was the one I was born, and it essentially helped raise me, for better or for worse. Of course there will be some connections there.

And patriotism is not just saying that your country is perfect as it is; patriots would want postive change to improve what they already love anyhow.

I <3 sweeping, baseless comments in this thread.

There are possible reasons for this decision, this being one of them:

Imagine the great amount of doors this would open if organ donations were allowed in a less beurocratic fashion to give prisoners essentially more time to live. That would mean me having a sister is an advantage compared to a lonely inmate on death row. I'm not saying soon everyone would find an obscure relative to donate to, but the fact is that it is giving an advantage from one prisoner to another. They live longer just by the virtue they can give an organ.

However, I'm not debating whether the death penalty is sound or not. Some people are 'evil', niceties of verbage aside, but to what extent is that their fault? To me it is like killing the mentally challenged or otherwise; for a malase you were born with that makes you a burden on society, you are executed. However, wether that is wrong or not can be debated.
2005-05-22, 2:02 PM #50
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob
Thats the stupidest thing I've EVER heard.

That COMPLETELY defeats the purpose of the appeals system.

The real sollution should be in SPEEDING UP the appeals process.


I didn't mention appeals because I didn't want to complicate what I was saying. When I say "sentence" I mean the final one, after the appeals are finished and the original sentence is upheld.

My point is that the whole process should be quicker. Punishment only really works if it occurs immediately after the crime, and without fail. It's Pavlov's dogs on a societal scale.

Mort: I'm confused, are you for or against patriotism? 'Cause I know I sure don't see Canada as a perfect and unquestionable figure of wisdom, but I do love my country. I'm sad when bad things happen to Canada, and happy when good things happen to her. If some evil overlord was going to destroy Canada, I would gladly die to stop it. That doesn't mean I think Canada is the world's most perfect country.
So sayest the Writer of Silly Things!
2005-05-22, 2:45 PM #51
Quote:
I didn't mention appeals because I didn't want to complicate what I was saying. When I say "sentence" I mean the final one, after the appeals are finished and the original sentence is upheld.

My point is that the whole process should be quicker. Punishment only really works if it occurs immediately after the crime, and without fail. It's Pavlov's dogs on a societal scale.


A 23-year-long study of death row cases released on June 12 2000 found that after a re-trial, less than 20% of cases recieved the death penalty a second time.

Columbia University law professor James S. Liebman led the researchers, who studied 4,578 death penalty appeals from 1973 to 1995 and found that state or federal courts overturned either the conviction or the imposition of the death sentence 68 percent of the cases.

The study said incompetent defense attorneys, and the suppression of evidence by police or prosecutors are among the most common mistakes made in capital cases. The people on death row that are actually guilty of a capital crime do not even constitue a majority; they constitute less than 20%. And that's only of those that opt for a retrial.

The long appeal time is the only thing that saves the innocent people on death row, and that is only for those that can afford a better lawyer and a retrial.

Put short, innocent people are very likely to be executed for crimes they did not commit, and the legal system simply is not good enough to prevent that from happening beyond reasonable doubt.

Miscarriages of justice are very unfortunate, and an innocent person jailed can never get back that time he spent in jail, but an innocent man executed is simply unacceptable.

Coupled with studies that suggest that capital punishment either simply doesn't work, or sometimes even increases the number of murders, the death penalty doesn't have much of a foot to stand on, regardless of what 'moral principles' you have on it.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-05-22, 3:07 PM #52
thats it. im going to México
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
2005-05-22, 4:01 PM #53
Quote:
Originally posted by Ewoklover
thats it. im going to México


Ok, bye.
2005-05-22, 4:24 PM #54
Quote:
Originally posted by Krig_the_Viking
The problem is not the death penalty itself. The problem is bureaucracy. If criminals were executed the day after their sentence, and everyone who had committed a capital offence was executed (and those who had not were not), the system would be 100% better, in my opinion.


It isn't a question of bureaucracy - it's a question of fallibility. The U.S. justice system is not perfect, and I'm quite certain that no one wishes to see an innocent person executed. It is for that sole principle that I can not support capital punishment.
the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot - LC Tusken
2005-05-22, 4:38 PM #55
I'd rather be proud of being human, that's something I can identify with. Being proud of the borders I happen to have been born within just seems silly, unless I happen to have contributed something to the society that nobody else could have, then I might have some pride.

If i'm proud of the achievements of my friends and family it's because in some small way I can believe I may have helped them achieve that. I can't believe the same thing about my country.

I was always under the impression that pride was derived from one's own personal achievements. At this point in life I haven't achieved anything for my country, so I can't feel any pride for it.

Unless of course you all meant pride to mean being glad or happy. I'm perfectly happy to be British, and hope I carry on being British for the forseeable future. I also hope Britain continues to prosper, the pride will come if i'm part of the reason for that prosperity.
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2005-05-22, 5:26 PM #56
Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
I'd rather be proud of being human, that's something I can identify with. Being proud of the borders I happen to have been born within just seems silly, unless I happen to have contributed something to the society that nobody else could have, then I might have some pride.

If i'm proud of the achievements of my friends and family it's because in some small way I can believe I may have helped them achieve that. I can't believe the same thing about my country.

I was always under the impression that pride was derived from one's own personal achievements. At this point in life I haven't achieved anything for my country, so I can't feel any pride for it.

Unless of course you all meant pride to mean being glad or happy. I'm perfectly happy to be British, and hope I carry on being British for the forseeable future. I also hope Britain continues to prosper, the pride will come if i'm part of the reason for that prosperity.


It seems that is a reply to what I said, and yeah, it's just what you said under the glad/happy part.
2005-05-22, 8:21 PM #57
Quote:
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
Lots o' stuff


You may have noted that I also advocated fixing the justice system so that trials get it right the first time, convicting the guilty and freeing the innocent. I'm talking about an ideal system here, not something that's realistically achievable in the next few years. It is, however, a goal to work toward. The more accurately and quickly the courts distinguish between guilt and innocence and dispence punishment, the better crime deterrent it will be.

Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
I was always under the impression that pride was derived from one's own personal achievements. At this point in life I haven't achieved anything for my country, so I can't feel any pride for it.

Unless of course you all meant pride to mean being glad or happy. I'm perfectly happy to be British, and hope I carry on being British for the forseeable future. I also hope Britain continues to prosper, the pride will come if i'm part of the reason for that prosperity.


It sounds like we may be working with different definitions of "pride". According to Merriam-Webster, the main definition of pride is:

Quote:
1: the quality or state of being proud: as a: inordinate self-esteem: CONCEIT b: a reasonable or justifiable self-respect c: delight or elation arising from some act, possession, or relationship <parental pride>


Definition c seems a lot like what you were talking about. I would feel delighted and elated if, say, my best friend won an Olympic gold medal in the 100 metre dash. The only difference between feeling proud of my friend and feeling proud of my country is one of scale (ie, I feel everyone in my country is a friend, or at least an ally, on some level).
So sayest the Writer of Silly Things!
2005-05-22, 11:00 PM #58
Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfy
It isn't a question of bureaucracy - it's a question of fallibility. The U.S. justice system is not perfect, and I'm quite certain that no one wishes to see an innocent person executed. It is for that sole principle that I can not support capital punishment.
I'm so with you on this. I used to be (while I was in HS) "for" the death penalty in that I thought people who were guilty of heinous crimes should be put to death. But after actually spending time reading about this crap and spending time in the courts getting convicted of a crime I didn't commit (speeding) and seeing the crooked cops and the crooked judges, I have no faith, and I mean none, in the justice system.
2005-05-22, 11:44 PM #59
Quote:
Originally posted by Krig_the_Viking
You may have noted that I also advocated fixing the justice system so that trials get it right the first time, convicting the guilty and freeing the innocent. I'm talking about an ideal system here, not something that's realistically achievable in the next few years. It is, however, a goal to work toward. The more accurately and quickly the courts distinguish between guilt and innocence and dispence punishment, the better crime deterrent it will be.


Just want to point out that one can't aim for both quick and accurate equally. The two have inverse results -- you aim for quick, and accuracy will drop. You aim for accuracy, and speed will drop. You can blame it on being human. I brought this up mostly because there seems to be a call for the decisions being quick. It would be better if the judicial system concerned itself with being accurate first, and from there, becoming more accurate could result in quicker decision-making as well. Being accurate is definately more important of the two in any case.

I'm also one to view the judicial system as a means of REFORM more than PUNISHMENT. I'll stop there, though, as I fear the cliches that I might bring up.
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2005-05-22, 11:53 PM #60
Honestly, as long as there are ever any people involved in deciding a person was innocent or guilty (and that means police officers, witnesses, judges, jury members, lawyers, even the defendant him/herself), there can never, ever be a guarantee that there aren't mistakes being made.
2005-05-22, 11:56 PM #61
I don't know... I mean America sure has been good to me so far. I mean a screwed up education system that has already kept me from getting a nice job, and the justice system is alao crazy. The damned bishop here in Phoenix gets wasted off his rocker and then plow through and kills someone with his car. What does he get? 1000 hours of community service. My own uncle strung out on cocaine robs a lady for $80 with an unloaded gun, he even said please and thank you! and he got 8 years. Go figure. :rolleyes:
MithShrike: First Mateneer
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2005-05-23, 3:30 AM #62
Quote:
Definition c seems a lot like what you were talking about. I would feel delighted and elated if, say, my best friend won an Olympic gold medal in the 100 metre dash. The only difference between feeling proud of my friend and feeling proud of my country is one of scale (ie, I feel everyone in my country is a friend, or at least an ally, on some level).


If you were born in Tajikistan, you'd be 'proud' of Tajikistan and you'd consider Tajikistanis your 'friends' and 'allies'. For what reason? Simply because you were all born in Tajikistan. This is the arbitrariness of patriotism.
Why should there be some sort of 'bond' between all Americans, all Canadians, all Tajikistanis simply because they are Americans, Canadians and Tajikistanis?

I am a great fan of Tolkien, and so are lots of people around the world. I know a lot of Tolkien fans in Russia. We are friends because we have a common interest. I meet a Tolkien fan, whether Russian, French, or even Tajikistani, we can talk about Tolkien and we have a 'bond'.
Now if I meet a Briton, not a fan of Tolkien or anything, what can we talk about? What do we have in common? What 'bond' might we form? Are we going to 'bond' just because we both live in Britain?
Yes, the closer two people live together, the more likely it is that they'll have grown up in similar environments and so the more likely it is that they'll have something in common. But it is not a necessity. And any bond that is formed is formed by the 'thing' they have in common, not the fact that they lived close together.
Just look around you, look at all the different Americans you know. Is there any 'thing' that they all have in common, any commonality that they all share with eachother? Of course there isn't, every country has a huge diversity of different peoples, different interests and viewpoints.

You're all Star Wars fans, of varying degrees. Imagine if you had to talk either to another Star Wars fan from Tajikistan, or a Star Trek fan from America.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-05-23, 9:08 AM #63
Quote:
Originally posted by Ewoklover
thats it. im going to México



You don't know much about Mexico do you?
2005-05-23, 12:05 PM #64
As far as the death penalty goes, I don't really feel that strongly about it. It's definately necessary in less technological society, where complete anarchy is always just around the corner, but in our society it's less necessary. I do think it's a better option than life in prison, though, since that's just a death sentence that lasts longer.

It's true that the system can't function at both maximum quickness and maximum accuracy, but a comprimise can be reached. The system we have now is neither quick nor accurate.

Here's an interesting question: if you had a choice between anarchy, where roving gangs of looters and bandits kill and take whomever and whatever they want, free from the interference of the law, or a system where serious crime is punished swiftly and harshly, but occasionally an innocent person is convicted, which would you choose, and why?

Mort: It's not so much the fact that I was (hypothetically) born in Tajikistan, but that I choose to remain there and be a part of the country. It's not because I have any petty social interests in common with my fellow countrymen; it's bigger than that.

The whole point of the concept of a nation-state, and indeed of civilization in general, is that groups of people have come together in order to improve life for all involved. They agree to obey a set of laws in their dealings with each other, and defend and protect each other when attacked. What they have in common is that they're all a part of something larger, a community. If I am a part of something, and that something does something good, should I not be proud?

The only reason I can think of not to feel proud is if you don't really think of yourself as a part of that larger community. If you think of yourself as an outsider who just happens to live in that country, you won't have those sorts of feelings.

As I said before, if I love a country, I'm liable to be proud to be a part of it. If I'm merely ambivilant toward it, I'm not likely to feel one way or the other about it.
So sayest the Writer of Silly Things!
2005-05-23, 2:32 PM #65
Quote:
The whole point of the concept of a nation-state, and indeed of civilization in general, is that groups of people have come together in order to improve life for all involved. They agree to obey a set of laws in their dealings with each other, and defend and protect each other when attacked. What they have in common is that they're all a part of something larger, a community. If I am a part of something, and that something does something good, should I not be proud?

The only reason I can think of not to feel proud is if you don't really think of yourself as a part of that larger community. If you think of yourself as an outsider who just happens to live in that country, you won't have those sorts of feelings.

As I said before, if I love a country, I'm liable to be proud to be a part of it. If I'm merely ambivilant toward it, I'm not likely to feel one way or the other about it.


But that's just it, nobody chooses what country they're born in, and few people really 'choose' what country they live in. You're not really capable of making that 'choice' until you've lived in a few different countries.


What they have in common is that they're part of something big? That isn't a commonality. None of them chose to part of it.

Loving 'your country' is so absurdly abstract as to be utterly meaningless.

Really, what exactly do you 'love'? What exactly are you 'proud' of?
The answer to that question, that is what you 'love'.

Quote:
The only reason I can think of not to feel proud is if you don't really think of yourself as a part of that larger community. If you think of yourself as an outsider who just happens to live in that country, you won't have those sorts of feelings.


What is that 'larger community'? Yes, with your local community, you don't know everything about it but you know a decent percentage of it to realistically be a significant part of it. As the scale gets bigger and bigger, you know less and less about it and you become less and less significant.

The 'outsiders' are outsiders because it is patriotism that makes them outsiders. It is people that think "Hmm, Tajikistan has a pretty good social system, much better than here in America" that are made to feel like outsiders by 'patriots' that brand them un-American or some such absurdity because they refuse to accept that anything in any other country can be as good or better than anything in their country.

And any foreigners coming to the country are immediately alienated for no reason other than being foreigners. It is patriotism that breeds the morbid contempt for any other country, and the arrogance concerning it. It is patriotism that is the border between any sort of international colloboration or unity and the source of tension between peoples.

At the heart of it, patriotism is illogical and irrational. Why not be 'proud' to be part of the North American continent? Why not be 'proud' to be part of the northern hemisphere? They would both make just as much sense.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-05-24, 6:05 PM #66
You're missing the whole point, Mort-Hog. This is about society and civilization, not how well I know each individual resident of my country. If my society (be it my town, my province/state, my nation, my culture, whatever) functions well and provides me with a good life, I am entirely justified in taking delight in the fact that I am a member of this society. I am entirely justified in caring about and feeling love for this society. True, as the scale gets bigger, I know less and less about the society as a whole. However, you may have noticed that this corresponds to how pride and patriotism work: a person generally feels more attached to his local town or state than his country as a whole, and more attached to his country as a whole than to the other countries in his culture, and more attached to his culture than other cultures in his species.

Outsiders are outsiders because they're part of a different society. They're "outside" of our home society. How one feels about his society is irrelevant. If you hate America and love Japan, but have never been to Japan, a person from Japan will still be an outsider to you, because he is used to living in a different society with different rules and norms. You might like him, but that doesn't make him any less of a foreign stranger to you, until either he adapts to your society, or you adapt to his.

Yes, we are all part of the human society. However, humanity is subdivided into smaller societies all the way down to the family level, with varying levels of "closeness" at each level. This is inevitable, since as you say, the larger the scale gets, the less we know the members of the society. Really, patriotism and national pride are the effects of feeling a greater "closeness" and sympathy to one's countrymen, and I don't see how that's a bad thing. Of course, it's an even better thing to feel greater "closeness" to humanity in general, but that doesn't make feeling sympathetic to one's countrymen any less of a good thing.
So sayest the Writer of Silly Things!
2005-05-25, 9:53 AM #67
Quote:
Originally posted by Krig_the_Viking
You're missing the whole point, Mort-Hog. This is about society and civilization, not how well I know each individual resident of my country. If my society (be it my town, my province/state, my nation, my culture, whatever) functions well and provides me with a good life, I am entirely justified in taking delight in the fact that I am a member of this society. I am entirely justified in caring about and feeling love for this society. True, as the scale gets bigger, I know less and less about the society as a whole. However, you may have noticed that this corresponds to how pride and patriotism work: a person generally feels more attached to his local town or state than his country as a whole, and more attached to his country as a whole than to the other countries in his culture, and more attached to his culture than other cultures in his species.


The "closeness" is unrelated to nationality. Yes, you're probably more likely to be 'close' to another American, you're more likely to have something in common, be it American football or baseball or something. But it certainly is not a necessity, and even that is purely superficial closeness.
A New York businessman and a Texas farm hand, what 'closeness' are they going to have? The New York businessman is going to be a whole lot 'closer' to some European or Japanese businessman than he is some Southern bumpkin.

Within Europe, national borders have very little to do with 'culture'. Norwegians in the South-West of Norway, Oslo perhaps, are going to have far more in common with those in the North of Denmark than they would other Norwegians to the far North, in Tromsø.

The question again is really what exactly is the 'closeness'?

Quote:
Of course, it's an even better thing to feel greater "closeness" to humanity in general, but that doesn't make feeling sympathetic to one's countrymen any less of a good thing.


This isn't about "you should like all of humanity, but that's kinda hard, so liking all of your country is good enough!".

I can't stand Creationists. It doesn't matter what country they're from, I can't stand them. I certainly don't feel any 'closeness' to them. Whether they're French, American, British or Tajikistani Creationists, I dislike them all equally. I don't think "G'arr, he's a Creationist, but at least he's British, so that makes up for it!". It doesn't work like that.

Quote:
Outsiders are outsiders because they're part of a different society. They're "outside" of our home society. How one feels about his society is irrelevant. If you hate America and love Japan, but have never been to Japan, a person from Japan will still be an outsider to you, because he is used to living in a different society with different rules and norms. You might like him, but that doesn't make him any less of a foreign stranger to you, until either he adapts to your society, or you adapt to his.


There are currently 11 000 Satanists in America now. (That's Church of Satan and Temple of Set, I couldn't find data for the Order of Nine Angels).
Tell me, what 'norms' do you share with them?

Within every society, there are 'outsiders' to their own society. So if you have some American 'outsider', and also some dude in Japan that's an 'outsider' to Japanese society, are those two automatically 'outsiders' from eachother just because they're of different nationalities? Of course not.
There are Satanists in America, and there are (probably) Satanists in Japan. They're not going to be 'outsiders' just because they grew up in different countries.

This is really what is the problem with patriotism: the immediate assumption that all foreigners are 'outsiders'. The immediate assumption that all foreigners are 'different'. The immediate preference of countrymen over foreigners. That sort of prejudice is entirely irrational, and totally unjustified.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-05-25, 7:00 PM #68
Quote:
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
The "closeness" is unrelated to nationality. Yes, you're probably more likely to be 'close' to another American, you're more likely to have something in common, be it American football or baseball or something. But it certainly is not a necessity, and even that is purely superficial closeness.


By "close", I don't mean having interests in common or anything like that. I mean having basic social rules in common, and therefore an easier time understanding and sympathising. That's kinda vague, I guess, so I'll give an example:

In Japanese society, group harmony and proper etiquette are the overriding concern, and the expectation is for people to put these things first. In America, personal integrity and individual expression are the overriding concerns, and the normal expectation is for people to act based on these. There are exceptions in both societies, of course, but they're just that: exceptions. Anybody's who's been to Japan will quickly realise that people in that culture act based on a different set of normal expectations than people in American culture.

Now, that's obviously an extreme example. Other societies are more similar to each other, such as Americans and Europeans. However, to say that borders have no effect on society is to deny reality. Canada, for instance, despite sharing the world's longest friendly border with the United States, has a definately distinct culture. Obviously, there's variations and subdivisions within both countries, and indeed, some countries may be entirely split, socially (for instance, many Quebeckers feel no loyalty or affinity at all with the rest of Canada, to the point where Quebec is really a country within a country). It can get complicated, and "patriotism" doesn't always apply strictly to national borders (as with Quebec, or Ireland, etc.). The common element is a feeling of brotherhood on a large scale.

Quote:
A New York businessman and a Texas farm hand, what 'closeness' are they going to have? The New York businessman is going to be a whole lot 'closer' to some European or Japanese businessman than he is some Southern bumpkin.

Within Europe, national borders have very little to do with 'culture'. Norwegians in the South-West of Norway, Oslo perhaps, are going to have far more in common with those in the North of Denmark than they would other Norwegians to the far North, in Tromsø.


You make a good point. Today, in the Information Age, borders are becoming increasingly ineffective as "culture barriers". In the days before the Internet and cheap long-distance calling, borders posed a signifigant deterrent to travel. One might visit another country for a while, but settling there is a whole other story. Since the circulation of people between countries is restricted, the circulation of their culture and ideas is also restricted.

However, with the rise of easy information transfer like TV and the Internet, culture and social norms have been able to spread without the need for people to move to other countries. In Europe, too, with the move towards unification, borders have become less of a restriction to the flow of culture.

Quote:
There are currently 11 000 Satanists in America now. (That's Church of Satan and Temple of Set, I couldn't find data for the Order of Nine Angels).
Tell me, what 'norms' do you share with them?


Tell me, if I were on a cross-country bus ride and struck up a conversation with an American Satanist, and we didn't talk about religion, would I be able to tell him apart from any other random American? Conversely, if I struck up a similar lengthy conversation with a man just off the plane from Japan, assuming he spoke flawless English, how different would he seem from other Americans? I've never met a Satanist myself, do they act signifigantly differently from other Americans? On the other hand, I have met a family from Japan. There are definate differences in their behaviour, and they've lived here for a while and become acclimated to the culture.

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Within every society, there are 'outsiders' to their own society. So if you have some American 'outsider', and also some dude in Japan that's an 'outsider' to Japanese society, are those two automatically 'outsiders' from eachother just because they're of different nationalities? Of course not.
There are Satanists in America, and there are (probably) Satanists in Japan. They're not going to be 'outsiders' just because they grew up in different countries.


So you're telling me that there's absolutely no difference between American Satanists and Japanese Satanists? That a Japanese Satanist who's never left Japan before, hanging out in America with American Satanists, would feel just as "at home" as he would back with his buddies in Japan? I find that highly doubtful. Sure, they would have more in common than your average Japanese and American, but that doesn't mean the cultural differences would just magically disappear.

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I can't stand Creationists. It doesn't matter what country they're from, I can't stand them. I certainly don't feel any 'closeness' to them. Whether they're French, American, British or Tajikistani Creationists, I dislike them all equally. I don't think "G'arr, he's a Creationist, but at least he's British, so that makes up for it!". It doesn't work like that.


So you hate me, then? :(

But that doesn't change my point. Just because you have a prejudiced dislike of creationists doesn't mean you have nothing in common with them. For instance, if your next door neighbor, a fellow Briton, was secretly a creationist but didn't tell you, you would have much more in common culturally with him, than with some guy from the backwoods of Tajikistan. I don't know much about Tajikistan, but I know it's primarily Muslim, and I'm pretty sure its culture is radically different from that of Great Britain, possibly even to the point of inhibiting communication (even if you both are fluent in the same language).

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This isn't about "you should like all of humanity, but that's kinda hard, so liking all of your country is good enough!".


Good, because I said nothing like that. What I said was that just because a lesser good is not as "good" as a greater good, doesn't make the lesser good an evil. It is possible to be patriotic about both your country and all of humanity, you know (just like it's possible to be patriotic about your state without being less patriotic about your country).

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This is really what is the problem with patriotism: the immediate assumption that all foreigners are 'outsiders'. The immediate assumption that all foreigners are 'different'. The immediate preference of countrymen over foreigners. That sort of prejudice is entirely irrational, and totally unjustified.


All foreigners are outsiders, by definition, to one degree or another. They're part of a different culture with different rules, which makes them different. Unless of course either they adopt my culture or I adopt theirs, and then we're the same.

I've been to America, and I was definately an outsider there. It was a very mild feeling, since our two cultures are very similar. Certain things were unfamiliar, however. Certain things they thought were normal were unusual to me. Had I stayed long enough, though, I would of course have become used to those things and ceased to be an outsider.

I agree, however, that prejudice against people from different cultures is irrational and unjustified. Just because it's a different culture doesn't mean that it's inferior, just that it's different.

Sorry for the rather long and wordy post. :S
So sayest the Writer of Silly Things!
2005-05-26, 7:57 AM #69
Proud to be a Californian!
2005-05-26, 8:26 AM #70
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I agree, however, that prejudice against people from different cultures is irrational and unjustified. Just because it's a different culture doesn't mean that it's inferior, just that it's different.


We've strayed from the point quite a bit, but this brings us back quite nicely because this is exactly why patriotism doesn't make sense. By loving 'your country' or 'your culture' you are saying that your culture is better than all others. If it wasn't, then there wouldn't be anything to be 'proud' of. And you've said it, there is nothing inherently 'better' about any one culture. So what is there to be 'proud' of? Your culture is just one of a whole multitude of different cultures. Big deal. Nothing special about it. Nothing worth being 'proud' of.

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In Japanese society, group harmony and proper etiquette are the overriding concern, and the expectation is for people to put these things first. In America, personal integrity and individual expression are the overriding concerns, and the normal expectation is for people to act based on these. There are exceptions in both societies, of course, but they're just that: exceptions. Anybody's who's been to Japan will quickly realise that people in that culture act based on a different set of normal expectations than people in American culture.


This probably doesn't have much to do with patriotism, but it is exactly what I was trying to draw out with the other point.
Trying to pin down something, anything, that is 'American'.

Look at your school. Look at all the different 'groups' of people, look at how vastly different those 'groups' are. Schools are a very good example of a mini-society, of the greater world compressed into one building. There will be 'goths', there will be 'jocks', there will be 'nerds' and there will be 'geeks'. They are all totally different, they all have different 'norms' and they all have different 'values'. And extrapolating this to the greater society, it does show what I was trying to get at. There is no such thing as 'American culture'. There is 'goth culture', there is 'geek culture', there probably is 'jock culture'. But you can't 'put them together' to form 'American culture'. Any sort of underlying commonality is going to be so incredibly vague and fleeting as to be totally meaningless. "they all value freedom!" or some crap like that. And the more vague and meaningless it becomes, the more difficult it will be to 'love' it or to be 'proud' of it.

And exactly the same applies to Japan. "I've lived with a Japanese family, therefor I know all about Japanese culture!". Total nonsense. You've probably gained an insight into the culture to which that particular family associated with, but all of Japan? There will be rich Japanese, poor Japanese, conservative Japanese, rebellious Japanese, and they will all have a different worldview, they will all have a different 'culture'.
To say that American Satanists and Japanese Satanists will still suffer some huge 'culture clash' just because they're Japanese is really nonsense. They've gone to the effort of 'choosing' their culture, as far as they can, 'Satanism' is their culture. They have the same culture.

I'm very keen on mathematics, and I have frequently met with Chinese mathematicians. There is no 'culture clash', even the 'language barrier' isn't a real problem because we both 'speak' mathematics. He isn't bringing some unique 'Chineseness' into the mix, nor am I bringing some unique 'Britishness'. He is a mathematician. I am a mathematician. We are both mathematicians. That is all there is to it.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-05-26, 4:49 PM #71
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We've strayed from the point quite a bit, but this brings us back quite nicely because this is exactly why patriotism doesn't make sense. By loving 'your country' or 'your culture' you are saying that your culture is better than all others. If it wasn't, then there wouldn't be anything to be 'proud' of. And you've said it, there is nothing inherently 'better' about any one culture. So what is there to be 'proud' of? Your culture is just one of a whole multitude of different cultures. Big deal. Nothing special about it. Nothing worth being 'proud' of.


Really? So if I love my mother, I'm saying she's better than all other women? If I'm proud of my father's achievements, I'm saying my dad is the best man who's ever lived? Of course not. Love and pride are not based on how well the thing that is loved stacks up against other things. It simply means you care about those things.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that all cultures are exactly equal and none are better than others. It's just that difference in and of itself is not an indicator of goodness or badness. Like everything, a culture should be learned about and examined closely before making any sort of judgements about it.

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Look at your school. Look at all the different 'groups' of people, look at how vastly different those 'groups' are. Schools are a very good example of a mini-society, of the greater world compressed into one building. There will be 'goths', there will be 'jocks', there will be 'nerds' and there will be 'geeks'. They are all totally different, they all have different 'norms' and they all have different 'values'.


There's a reason goth culture and geek culture are known as "sub-cultures". It's because they're subdivisions of a larger culture. Your very use of high school as an example undermines your point. Geek and goth and jock are all subcultures of high school culture. They might outwardly appear different, but there's a large number of things in common: the pressure to get good grades, the pressure to be popular, the rules forbidding alcohol or drugs, etc. They differ in their responses to these pressures, but the pressures apply to all of them equally. Meanwhile, a guy from Tajikistan has none of these pressuring social influences. He has a different set entirely.

Culture, on the level we're talking about, is more about relationships and communication. There are certain base standards which apply to all members of a culture equally, which facilitate communication. For instance, tolerance of other cultures is part of the Canadian culture. When talking to a fellow Canadian, I assume that they are at least somewhat tolerant of other cultures, and this facilitates communication. In, say, Tajikistan, tolerance of other cultures is not likely to be a large part of their culture, if it is at all. Thus, communication between us will be hampered.

Culture is a lot like language, really. There are large groups of similar cultures which have all developed from one source, analoguous to languages. An example would be Western culture. Within these "super-cultures" are smaller, national-level cultures, analoguous to dialects such as Australian English or American English. Within those cultures there can be further levels of division, comparable to various regional accents within a dialect. It can be divided all the way down to the family level, where each family has a different way of living, just as each family tends to have their own quirks of speech, and the individual level.

In fact (and this is getting a little off-topic, but oh well), language and culture are intertwined rather closely. Language serves as another "culture barrier," hindering the flow of cultural trends between groups that speak different languages. For instance, a society that speaks English is far more likely to be influenced by American culture than one that speaks only Bantu or Hindi.

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And extrapolating this to the greater society, it does show what I was trying to get at. There is no such thing as 'American culture'. There is 'goth culture', there is 'geek culture', there probably is 'jock culture'. But you can't 'put them together' to form 'American culture'. Any sort of underlying commonality is going to be so incredibly vague and fleeting as to be totally meaningless. "they all value freedom!" or some crap like that.


On the contrary, a national culture is by definition the sum of its sub-culture, in the same way that a sub-culture is the sum of its individual members. All of them influence one another interact with one another, resulting in a "big picture" of the country as a whole. And like individuals, any sub-cultures inhabiting the same region are going to arrive at a consensus for dealing with one another. Believe it or not "they all value freedom" is not a meaningless statement, nor is it all that vague. There are cultures that don't value freedom, at least not to the same degree as most Western cultures. Communist Russia, for example, was far more concerned with equality than personal freedom. There are third-world countries that are far more concerned with just getting enough food to eat, to them personal freedom is a luxury rather than a right.

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And exactly the same applies to Japan. "I've lived with a Japanese family, therefor I know all about Japanese culture!". Total nonsense. You've probably gained an insight into the culture to which that particular family associated with, but all of Japan? There will be rich Japanese, poor Japanese, conservative Japanese, rebellious Japanese, and they will all have a different worldview, they will all have a different 'culture'.


Before I go further, I'd like to point out that once again, your paraphrase of me bears almost no resemblance to what I actually said. I've never lived with a Japanese family, but I did meet one. I actually learned very little about Japanese culture from them, most of what I know I learned from reading, and I am by no means an expert. I can assure you, however, that I am quite aware that there are sub-cultures in Japan, just as there are sub-cultures in America.

Ok, that sounded a little pompous, but I don't like being misquoted, even in paraphrase. Especially in paraphrase. ;)

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To say that American Satanists and Japanese Satanists will still suffer some huge 'culture clash' just because they're Japanese is really nonsense. They've gone to the effort of 'choosing' their culture, as far as they can, 'Satanism' is their culture. They have the same culture.

I'm very keen on mathematics, and I have frequently met with Chinese mathematicians. There is no 'culture clash', even the 'language barrier' isn't a real problem because we both 'speak' mathematics. He isn't bringing some unique 'Chineseness' into the mix, nor am I bringing some unique 'Britishness'. He is a mathematician. I am a mathematician. We are both mathematicians. That is all there is to it.


So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that there are no cultural differences between British mathematicians and Chinese mathematicians whatsoever? If you talked about politics instead of math, there would be no difference between the Chinese mathematicians and the British mathematicians? What about religion, or economics, or the status of the elderly in society? Just because two groups may have some common ground and get along well doesn't mean that they are culturally identical. Just because some goth guy and I, a literature geek, share a love of the works of Tolkien and can talk for hours about them, doesn't mean that there's no difference between geeks and goths.

On a personal note, I must say that this is one of the more fulfilling Internet debates I've had in a while. ;)
So sayest the Writer of Silly Things!
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