Branching off of Zully's Thread.

(I'll use Christianity as a focus, but the following can be applied in different ways to any religion)

A christian is a good christian when they send money to the Christian Childrens fund, but have they damned that act by telling someone?

Wearing a cross is demonstrating your religion, but do you need a cross to be a christian?

Going to church and worshiping your god is a good thing for a christian to do, but are you sinning when you praise at home, and in your own privacy?

To me, it just seems that religion is more of a popularity, or a public thing, than it is a private, and personal thing. How many people really demonstrate the will of their god by being a better person? By not thinking bad thoughts? By emotionally re-adjusting your life to fit with the "Plan" of your god/savior. Too often is religion a symbolic thing for people, a breast-plate of social standing. "A good christian..." seems more like a social superiority statement than a religious empowerment.

The cross isn’t what christians worship, but it HAS become something people worship.

If your own emotional and moral insides don't reflect your religion, then why bother with the badges and breastplates of "morals?"

Discuss.

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

About your last point:

Yes, the church as to some degree 'modernized' in order to interest a younger generation who really (being raised with mass media and such) may not find as much interest in conventional worship...


err... dinner, i'll post more later.



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Saberopus: omfq musical genuis j00 >mozart
Thrawn42689: Mozart = n00b

No, not necessarily symbolic representation. Just having a Bible, going to church or knowing prayers doesn't mean anything. It's reading the Bible, saying the prayers (and meaning them), going to church for a specific purpose (worship of the Almighty) that makes them important.

And although your argument is complete nonsense (stripping anything of all its special items or practices will basicly nullify it) , I will try to give you a good answer. Even without those things you mentioned, one can still be a Christian. The purpose of Christianity is to follow, worship, serve, and ultimately please God. While going to church and reading the Bible accomplish these goals, daily action in your life is what seperates Christians from non-christians. True Christians try to adhere to a higher standard of moral living by refrainind from dishonesty, sexual immorality, selfishness and pride. The two most important objectives in life, to a Christian, are to love God completely, and love otherp people as much as we love ourselves. Non-religious people do not remotely attempt to obey these commands. That's the difference you're looking for.

[Bah, you went and made a new thread]

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Empty.

Ha! Its encouraged to practice religion by yourself... funny.

When I was pulled aside by my pastor and told that I "wasnt coming to church enough", and I responded "I frown upon the actions of this church, and have taken up religion by myself in my own life, without the church telling me how to do it" I was not "encouraged" to do this! I was told that I was not practicing my faith enough by not coming to church, I was in fact, "sinning" by doing this.

Thats when it hit me, church is no longer about religion. Church has become big buisness. They didnt want to see me in church, they wanted another dollar in the collection plate so they could pay for the land another month.

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"Just remember -- No matter how bad things get, Northern Minnesota will always be there"
-- Garrison Keeler

I disagree with the reasoning, but I do agree with the observation.

I believe that church, specifically, has just become a social gathering, and a way to show you're a "Good Person" rather than a practice of faith in assembly and being proud about your religious faith.

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head, Kirby. Many, no, MOST, modern Christians have been so blinded by all the rules and regulations of the "religioius" side of Christianity that they have completely forgotten about the most important part, their relationship with God.

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"I sound like angry chickens, or maybe a space robot."
-Les Claypool of Primus

I answer "no" to all these questions. ...yeah... and strangely enough, the land is being used for... *gasp* religious purposes!
Not to mention churches are tax-exempt.
And we all know that gas and electricity are free, as are all types of ministry.
We know all the money goes into the pockets of the elders. That's why church elders are known for being so wealthy.
You're also required to give an offering, or you get kicked out of the church, plus God won't like you.

Let me know if my satire isn't obvious enough.

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited May 06, 2004).]

hmm... would devoting an hour to prayer and whatnot once a week instead of going to church be an adequate substitute (not that I would do it...it's hypothetical). And for all you Catholics out there on the that subject, with the whole "devotion at home" thing, do we really need to recieve the body and blood of christ every week seeing as how it's just symbolic. The whole "recieving the body and blood of christ" would be just about the only thing you would be missing.

My problem with religion (actually, one of my problems) is that they all seem to say if you don't believe this, you're going to hell (note: this is just an exaggeration on the emphasis they put on church and belief). I would think the kind of life you live would be more important than what exactly you believe or even whether or not you go to church every sunday.

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Men and their wars!... I think that men raise flags when they can't get anything else up!
~from Pippin

Numbered for my lazyness:



1)no, you are not damned by telling someone. It fells good to have someone praise you, and in many cases you can't do good acts without someone knowing. The problem comes when you do acts soley for the purpose of being praised and getting attention, which is why, in the case of Christian scripture, Christ was so mad at the pharisees and that otehr caste i forget the name of, because they would pray in the streets or tell everyone when they donated. The did it strictly to show people they were so high and mighty.

2)As sab said, Certainly not. and most people i know where a cross, myslef included although i don't wear it alot, wear it under their clothes, not on top and shown to the world.

3)No, for catholics, it is enchoraged for you to go to church so that you can recieve the eucharist, but this isn't necessary, and praying by yourself is encouraged.

4)That's a big problem today, especially with people attacking the Catholic church, because people consider themselves good christians when they go to church, when they sin constantly out of it, in which case they are most cirtantly lot good christians. The teachings of Jesus tell us to love everyone, all the time, not to spend our time in woship, forsaking the outside world (true, tehre are orders that do this, but most orders are concerned with the outside world, i.e. Jesuits and whatever order St. Teresa founded). Obviously we can't live this perfectly, and it is not expected. The teachings say, basicly, "try our best to lvoe those around you, and do not expect repayment for good acts". Recieving praise/rewards for good acts is not condemned, it's jsut that it should not ebcome the center of one's motives.

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"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW
A Knight's Tail
Exile: A Tale of Light in Dark
Scions of Light[/i]
The Never Ending Story Squared[/i]

The greatest commandment is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart." Worship =-> love. (The =-> is my way of notating a one-way "equation." Worship is an expression of love, but love is not necessarily an expression of worship.) There's lots of passages in the Bible about worship.

I could say more, but I don't want to derail the topic too far.

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

I haven't gone to church for a while, not because I didn't want to, but because we couldn't really do to some family issues.


But, I don't feel that I absoloutly need it every week ethier.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I atleast when I do something wrong try to correct it, and keep from doing that, I don't read the bible allot, but I plan to read it sometime.

I pray every now and then, but God is still on my mind allot, I just try to live as good as I can and hope thats good enough, because right now thats really all I can do.

I'm not saying "LOL NEVER GO TO CHURCH" Hardly, I'm just saying I don't belive its neccicary every week, especially with what its become.


*Shrug* I never learned anything from church ethier. I never payed attention to a bloody thing, I'd just sleep or find something to do.

I feel that trying to live as good as you can, helping others and doing deeds is the important part.


yeah, k.

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Signature.

*so original*

But it is also said that by loving you're nieghbor, you are showing love for jesus, which is the purpose of worship, and therefore pretty much the same thing.

------------------
"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW
A Knight's Tail
Exile: A Tale of Light in Dark
Scions of Light[/i]
The Never Ending Story Squared[/i]

[This message has been edited by Noble Outlaw (edited May 05, 2004).]

The funny thing is, I'm not even religious, and I'm an Athiest. It just bothers me when people aren't even religious and try to argue with me. (They litterally will tell me, out of the blue "You know, there is a god?") Which is REALLY sad. When someone can't defend their religion when I ask the question: "If you strip X, X, and X, what is your religion about?" and they don't know... Well, what does that make you?

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

Basicly, a hypocrite.

------------------
"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW
A Knight's Tail
Exile: A Tale of Light in Dark
Scions of Light[/i]
The Never Ending Story Squared[/i]

[This message has been edited by Noble Outlaw (edited May 05, 2004).]

I go to a Catholic school, where just about every one of my friends wears a cross around their neck, outside their shirt. Regardless many of them don't really care about the Church at all. Anywhere from 75% and up of the student body doesn't attend mass. I hear people constantly saying the Church is wrong for saying this and that, but can never produce a reason why, or if they can argue it's validity without just flipping out and saying you aren't listening.

I understand the not believing it, I understand it all just being on the back burner. But why deliberately wear the Cross right out there, for no particular reason?

And, jEDIKIRBY, I love hearing that kind of stuff. Like how this friend was telling me that we know Jesus was the son of God because "there are Roman records of his miracles." I tell him, if it were fact then why do so many people argue it? He simply repeats himself, and I decide it's better to just let it go. He's a nice kid, but he has no idea what his faith is about.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

Right and you know if you strip the engine transmission and alternator out of your car, it doesn't function anymore.. ho ho.. ZING!! *chest-bump*

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"WHEREAS, a body of men calling themselves the National Congress are now in session in Washington City, in violation of our Imperial edict of the 12th of October last, declaring the said Congress abolished;
WHEREAS, it is necessary for the repose of our Empire that the said decree should be strictly complied with;
NOW, THEREFORE, we do hereby Order and Direct Major-General Scott, the Command-in-Chief of our Armies, immediately upon receipt of this, our Decree, to proceed with a suitable force and clear the Halls of Congress." -By Order of Emperor Joshua A Norton I of the United States of America, Dei Gratia, January 1860
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

Your argument is flawed kirby.

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A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops.
On my desk I have a workstation...


[This message has been edited by Farix (edited May 06, 2004).]

Nothing you said makes any sense. I'm not putting you down, but you don't seem to know much about the Christian religion. You aren't a good Christian if you donate to the Christian Children's Fund, you don't have to wear a cross (many people think it's blasphemous. it's up to you to decide), and one of the big things about Christianity (other than Catholocism apparently) is that you don't need a priest to "talk" to God for you. This allows you to praise wherever you want, it's never been a rule that you must praise only at church.

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Truth is in the eye of the beholder.
Forum Rules

This has been a bone of contention among Christans for years. Many people make a show of their religion, while others are very private about it. Take me for example, I don't go to church mainly because I think that your faith is a very private thing. I'd like to worship in my own way. Many people though, get a better feeling from being around other people that share their beliefs. Once again, it's all up to you.


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Truth is in the eye of the beholder.
Forum Rules

Don't bother posting if you don't have an argument. Your argument is flawed because it doesn't even have substance.



You're missing my point completelly. I'm not defining christianity, no. I'm defining a certain group of christians who DO act this way. And I am not even attempting to define Christianity, I'm pointing my finger at people in general who wear the symbolism of their church without the actual guts or interior complexes of their religion. Those who wear a badge of religion but have no personal attachment, have no "Relationship" with their god have absolutelly no argument against those of us who are athiest, or agnostic. THAT'S my argument.

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

You said your focus was Christianity. Be a little more specific if you're only talking about a percentage of a percentage of the population.

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Truth is in the eye of the beholder.
Forum Rules

Although I didn't say a portion of christians, you can assume that because I mention it can be applied to many religions, it's a "Some people..." not "Christians are..." statement.

It's also pretty obvious that because I was speaking rhetorically, I wasn't applying the statements as if they were true, but a question that some would answer yes, others no.

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

Yes, it's written, but that's not worship. Hmm... It's kind of like God's love is a light and you're a prism, and we show God's love to others through different kinds of acts. (at least, that's how we're supposed to act.)

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited May 06, 2004).]

'Nuff said. I was focusing on your focus, not on the other religions.


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Truth is in the eye of the beholder.
Forum Rules

[This message has been edited by Crimson (edited May 06, 2004).]

We don't talk to God through priests. The priests only intercede in the Sacraments. Jesus never gave the people the authority to administer their own sacraments, he granted that to the apostles.

You don't pray to God only in church, but going to Church is required regardless. The Catholic Church teaches that your life in and of itself should be a prayer, but that doesn't mean there is no place for prayer itself.

The Catholic Mass is very different from the Protestant service. Mainly the Eucharist is believed to be truly the Body and Blood of Christ, and not simply a symbol thereof. The reception of it is paramount; "Unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you shall not have life within you."

Also the gathering at mass is part of the Christian community, coming together in His name. These people are your family, and it is important to recognize that. One can not do it alone; and not all of it is personal.
What set the members of "the Way" apart as unique was their community; caring for each other's needs in a way no one else ever did.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

Strange, i don't remember anything in the NT about the sacrements other than the eucharist, and that i can't seem to recall being given only to the apostles to perform

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"WHEREAS, a body of men calling themselves the National Congress are now in session in Washington City, in violation of our Imperial edict of the 12th of October last, declaring the said Congress abolished;
WHEREAS, it is necessary for the repose of our Empire that the said decree should be strictly complied with;
NOW, THEREFORE, we do hereby Order and Direct Major-General Scott, the Command-in-Chief of our Armies, immediately upon receipt of this, our Decree, to proceed with a suitable force and clear the Halls of Congress." -By Order of Emperor Joshua A Norton I of the United States of America, Dei Gratia, January 1860
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

Is there something wrong with symbolism and using religion as culture?

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Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

The seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church: Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation, Reconcilliation, Marraige, Holy Orders, Anointing of the Sick.
Some lines you might recall:
"...Baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (note there is no such thing as a Catholic baptism, it is the same for all Christians, and so every christian baptism is recognized as valid)
Confirmation is a completion of baptism, where one makes the promise oneself, instead of one's godparents making it for him or her.

"...whoevers sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whoevers sins you retain shall be retained." -reconcilliation.

Mairage is not administered by a member of the clergy, or by anyone accept the two. The two give themselves, and no one can do it for them.

Holy Orders has to do with Apostolic succession which protestant faiths deny, so I won't even bother.

Anointing of the sick comes from the Power Jesus himself gave to the apostles to heal the sick. (the sacrament is believed to heal mentally and/or physically).

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

[This message has been edited by Bounty Hunter 4 hire (edited May 06, 2004).]

Ok... So... First off, most religions can be spelled D.O. Do. You enter heaven according to your good works. What you DO. Christianity is spelled D.O.N.E. Done. It's not what we must do, but what God has done for us by sending his only son, Jesus Christ to save us. Romans 10:9 says that "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, you will be saved." That's it. Accept Him and try to live your life like it. And as for "saying the prayers" and stuff. God doesn't /want/ us to say special prayers over.. and over... and over again. Jesus gave us the Lord's Prayer as a /model/ for how we should pray.

As for having to go to church? No way, dude. You don't /have/ to! It is encouraged because it is a heck of alot easier to stay in touch with God when around other Christians. You can encourage each other and obviously, if you have a good preacher, there is much that can be learned there.

Why do we read the Bible? Because the Bible is believed to be the word of God. It's all there. Everything we are to believe. And also, for evangelistic purposes. If you make a statement, you should be able to back it up with the Gospel...

The,
Hamhog

That belief is held only by some Christian sects.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

Note also (possibly in that same verse or general area) that baptism by both water and in the Spirit are required.

Also, why do Catholics refer to priests as "father"?
Matt. 23:9 - "And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."
Just curious.

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

I hope this means you get my point.

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A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops.
On my desk I have a workstation...

... You probably think you're slick with that one Farix, but really... you're just lacking a point all together.

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

Ho ho! You're wrong! Because you're not right!

It's a net! And it's tiny!

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"WHEREAS, a body of men calling themselves the National Congress are now in session in Washington City, in violation of our Imperial edict of the 12th of October last, declaring the said Congress abolished;
WHEREAS, it is necessary for the repose of our Empire that the said decree should be strictly complied with;
NOW, THEREFORE, we do hereby Order and Direct Major-General Scott, the Command-in-Chief of our Armies, immediately upon receipt of this, our Decree, to proceed with a suitable force and clear the Halls of Congress." -By Order of Emperor Joshua A Norton I of the United States of America, Dei Gratia, January 1860
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

Is that meant to be a comeback?

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A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops.
On my desk I have a workstation...

I fail to see what you're looking for here.

Do some Christians have a hollow faith that is all flash and no substance? Yeah. Do all of them? No. Do most of them? No. Do most of the vocal, loud, get-the-cameras-pointed-at-them? Maybe.

The actions of a few do not condemn a religion as meaningless. Just because someone wears a cross does not mean that their faith is hollow.

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Dark, Darker, Darko

RIP Madaventor: God bless you.

Dor made this thread great.

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Saberopus: omfq musical genuis j00 >mozart
Thrawn42689: Mozart = n00b

Continually, I'm assumed of condemning just christians, or all of them. This applies to nearly any religion under the sun, and I'm sick of it. And really, dispite Farix's need to pick a fight, I'm not trying to start some sort of an argument. I want a discussion, like what everyone else is giving.

More often than not is a religion focused on the glamor and glow, rather than the real guts of a religion, and that's what I'm trying to get opinions on.

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

An interesting thought JediKirby

Well I don't normally get involved with these Religious-based threads, more to avoid the simple flame-war that I sense in the none-too-distant future - so far though everyone's opinion has been pretty well civilised...

Personally, I don't go to Church as much as I should, however, that doesn't stop me making time for God in my life in my time; at a time that's convenient for me. When I'm asked by friends whether or not I honestly believe in God and/or an after-life, then I have no shame nor am I apprehensive in admitting that although not being a regular Church-goer, it doesn't stop my beliefs and that I, personally, believe there is a God and an after-life; for the former because there are just too many "miracles" both in this world and in each of our lives to simply class them as "fate" or "chance". The latter I put down to my faith and "hope" that there is some place that is far more special than this one. But these are my choices to believe and for every man/woman, all opinions are equally valid - far be for me to say otherwise

Otherwise, I feel that of all the views expressed so far, I can associate the closet with Hamhog999K's offering

Anyways, these are just my two pennies worth...

-Jackpot

Take a look at these "points-of-view":


Now I hate to get on my high-horse, but I'm going to mount it like a stubborn mule here: there is no reasoning for the arguments -nay- "statements" that you make. You express no view, with no explanantion coupled with no comment that is even related to the subject topic ...

Conclusion: what the heck are you on about Farix?!?

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"lucky_jackpot is the smily god..." - gothicX

"Life is mostly froth and bubble,
But two things stand in stone,
Kindness in another's trouble,
Courage in your own"
("Ye Wearie Wayfarer" - by Adam Lindsay Gordon)

I think the water and spirit you refer to had to do with the Baptism offered by John the Baptist. His followers said they had already been baptised, and Jesus replied that John had baptised with water, but his baptism would be by fire and the Holy Spirit. John said himself, when he declared himself unworthy of unloosing the Christ's sandal straps, that his baptism was of water, but that the one who would come after would bring baptism by fire.

Johns was of repentance, and the willingness to be forgiven. Take the quote in context, beforehand it mentions not calling anyone Rabbi; has any literalist ever refrained from refering to a Jewish expert of the Torah as such? The arguement was crafted by literalists, who had already prejudged the Church as wrong.
You're also never supposed to call anyone "Master," if you follow their line of reasoning. Not a master of an art, not as a sign of respect, not ever.

If you take even the part of the line itself literally you are not allowed to call your male parent "Father," yet I doubt many of this arguement's crafters or followers would refrain from that. They are willing to be literal when it attacks a practice of the Church, but are strangely non-literal in situations where it would apply to them.

A priest gave his life in service of God, and out of love for Him chose to teach the truth to others, to administer the sacraments to them, to counsel and advise them, and to help them in moments of darkness. Purely out of love he took on this burden, refusing marital bonds, and became an instrument of God to guide us to salvation. It is out of respect for this that we call a priest "Father," or certain ones given the title "Monsignor" (My lord). They were called to be our spiritual fathers, and teach us the unchanging truth: the only thing that can ever make us happy or complete. They are also called to be examples of the way to live Jesus taught, which is a great burden as well.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....