Am I the only one who thinks that Farix wasn't trying to make an actual argument, but perhaps putting up a little satire/mockery?

Myself? I consider myself a Christian. I don't place a fish on my bumper, I don't wear a cross, and I only have one Christian band CD. I'm not zealously religious, nor am I ashamed of my religion.

What do I define Christianity as? Doing what God has asked of us - abstain from sexual immorality and treat people with kindness and respect. I think that pretty much sums up what I believe God wants. Everything else pretty much falls under those two categories.

I don't believe that church is a required part, but more of a school to which you to learn. It's a sacred school, yes, but a school, nonetheless.

As for praying in private being a sin? Who on Earth told you that? They're about as flat-out wrong as is possible:



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Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent.

-R.D. Laing

[This message has been edited by Wolfy (edited May 07, 2004).]

I was referring to John 3:3-6 - Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicode'mus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
But now, I've forgotten what my point was.
But why? Why not priest? It seems more accurate to me.
That's another thing I've always been curious about. Why aren't Catholic priests allowed to marry?
Genesis 2:18 - "...it is not good for man to be alone, so I will make him a help meet for him."
Proverbs 18:22 - "He who finds a wife finds a good thing, and obtains favor from the LORD."

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

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[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited May 07, 2004).]

Farix: "This Statement makes no Assertion".

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"WHEREAS, a body of men calling themselves the National Congress are now in session in Washington City, in violation of our Imperial edict of the 12th of October last, declaring the said Congress abolished;
WHEREAS, it is necessary for the repose of our Empire that the said decree should be strictly complied with;
NOW, THEREFORE, we do hereby Order and Direct Major-General Scott, the Command-in-Chief of our Armies, immediately upon receipt of this, our Decree, to proceed with a suitable force and clear the Halls of Congress." -By Order of Emperor Joshua A Norton I of the United States of America, Dei Gratia, January 1860
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Actually quite the opposite. His arguments make very broad painted assertions about a very large group of people that simply isn't true for all of them. Sure he corrected it later by saying it actually applies to only a sparse minority of the zealots in today's churches, but when you start a discussion of this nature it's a good idea to not set a tone of a condecending nature. You can see that even the people who followed his post without a bitter tone still felt the need to defend thier positions. They weren't being asked about thier religion, they were being accused.

[Is] A christian is a good christian when they send money to the Christian Childrens fund?

[If so] have they damned that act by telling someone?

[Is] wearing a cross is demonstrating your religion?

[If so], do you need a cross to be a christian?

See how easy this is?

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A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops.
On my desk I have a workstation...

[Is] A christian is a good christian when they send money to the Christian Childrens fund?
[My Answer] Obviously, good deeds such as the example you give are encouraged and those who do will rewarded in Heaven. But that doesn't mean that doing good deeds will get you into Heaven. Christianity, as Jesus preached, is not a religion based on acts but on Faith alone. Good deeds are extra.

[If so] have they damned that act by telling someone?
[My Answer] ...No... Maybe I don't understand the question. Again I will say, though, that whether or not you do good deeds will not make or break your chances of getting into Heaven.

[Is] wearing a cross demonstrating your religion?

[My Answer] Yeah, wearing the cross is a statement of your faith. I wear one. It's small, and nothing fancy, but that object does not make me a Christian. A Christ follower. I know alot of people that wear one, that don't really give a crap about my God. It's looks cool. You've seen them. Those big, flashy, blingin' crosses on the huge chain that hangs down bast the knees. There's a song that's been out for a while (I forget the artist) but the lyrics are something like,

Why do you wear your cross of gold?
Is it state of mind?
Or what you believe in?

[If so], do you need a cross to be a christian?

Oh, I guess I answered this already up above. And again, I answer No.

The,
Hamhog




[This message has been edited by Hamhog999K (edited May 07, 2004).]

Like I stated before, those AREN'T questions, they're agree disagree STATEMENTS. The question mark makes it a question, but because I left out the [if so] portions, they weren't meant to be answered. Sort of hard to get across that over the internet, but they were exampletory questions, not questions in the sense that I am unknowing of the answers.

I'm not so sure I know how to express what I was attempting with this thread (not an argument, I assure you), but I know that I wasn't asking people to answer my questions, but to discuss the pov that they are given from.

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

I don't think anyone is trying to condemn you for anything. We are simply replying using the religion we know. Since Christianity is one of the more popular religions in this part of the world, more people know about it. I assume that's why you used it as your original example? If so, you have to understand that people can't very well go on about the symbolism of the Muslim religion if they don't know anything about it. We are answering out of our own experience.

It also seems like Farix is simply trying to get the point across that the wording of your original "questions" makes them into more of an accusatory statement. It's fine if you didn't mean them the way they read, but we don't know your attitude through any other channel than your wording here.

This is the longest I've seen a religious thread go without turning into a flame war. I'm proud of us, Massassi is growing up!

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Truth is in the eye of the beholder.
Forum Rules

Literally. The average age has increased, so...
meh. Whatever.

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

Farix, i was actually covering for you there in response to the quoted section and using that as your next reply.. but whatever.

As i recall, someone please check me on this, recently there was a law passed or at least ratified in France that forbid the wearing of obvious crucifices, yammakuhs, chador [muslim veil/coverings] and similar religious objects. This was brought up in my phi of western religion course at least.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"WHEREAS, a body of men calling themselves the National Congress are now in session in Washington City, in violation of our Imperial edict of the 12th of October last, declaring the said Congress abolished;
WHEREAS, it is necessary for the repose of our Empire that the said decree should be strictly complied with;
NOW, THEREFORE, we do hereby Order and Direct Major-General Scott, the Command-in-Chief of our Armies, immediately upon receipt of this, our Decree, to proceed with a suitable force and clear the Halls of Congress." -By Order of Emperor Joshua A Norton I of the United States of America, Dei Gratia, January 1860
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In an attempt to prevent french muslims from having any sort of case on the matter of expression of religion, france has unilaterally banned any and all religious symbols from it's public schools.

It's not about removing church from school, it's about sticking it to the muslims (whom they have a severe disdain for).

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A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops.
On my desk I have a workstation...

I believe it has to do with the difference between the "baptism" possible then -that of John, being of repentence/preparation- and the true baptism that will be possible when Jesus' work is complete. Those born of flesh are of flesh -original sin and the concupiscence it created is passed on. When the Son of Man is "lifted up" (crucified), His work is complete.

Then one is not baptised simply by water, as in John's baptism, but the Baptism will become true, as was prefigured in Jesus' baptism, where the spirit that hovered over the water came upon him, although it didn't the rest. Then we can be born of spirit, and be spirit.

Jesus refered to his death as a baptism with which me must be baptized. The blood and water that flowed from his side to prove He was dead proved we would never die, and were open for us so that we might be baptized by them and be capable of entering the Kingdom of God. He took the baptism so that we might also, died that death be destroyed, and rose that we might also.

In a Catholic prayer for the dead it is said "In baptism he/she died in Christ, may he/she also share in his resurection." He is not simply a priest like in the OT. He does not simply provide a gateway to God. He teaches the word of God and passes on the truth without which man can not be truly happy, and helps one to be a christian, just as one's Father raises his child an teaches him/her to walk upright in the world. A priest is supposed to be a father-figure, whom anyone can turn to for help -the reason why the sex abuse scandal was so shocking and horriffic as a betrayal by a few of this trust and respect.

It is also said by St. Thomas Aquinas that "only Christ is the true priest, the others being only his ministers." The reference to the priest as "Father" is also a sign of respect for his position as a representative of Christ. A priest is not called to the life that most are. His vocation is to be with God entirely, and to be completed by God where husbands and wives are completed by each other.
His job is emense, leaving no time for a spouse, which itself is supposed to be a full-time thing. It is not fair to place the duties of a priest on a married couple that has duties itself. A priest's love is undivided, and his duty unfettered.

Christ called his followers to give up everything and follow him. Would it have been fair of a man to submit to martyrdom having a wife to care for, and children to raise to adults?

It eventually became clear that it was unrealistic to have a married clergy. Too, it became clear that it was unrealistic that members of the opposite sex working so closely together as priests and priestesses would create inevitable sexual tension, and so one sex was chosen -male.

A person called to marraige is called differently, to share his/her life with another and become one flesh; to love and give oneself to another creating life.

The Church teaches that no vocation is greater than another, but only one is right for you, and not just in regard to married/single/clergy/religious, but for life in general.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

[This message has been edited by Bounty Hunter 4 hire (edited May 11, 2004).]