Pagewizard_YKS, I'm with you in spirit but I don't necessarily agree with what that guy says or how you're interpreting it. The fact is, I started with absolutely nothing. I joined the military, when I got out I went to community college, got fed up, quit, got a job programming, now am somewhat self-employed (I am "legally" self-employed but the vast majority of my income comes from one source and I spend 8 hours a day programming). I've always believed that if I worked harder I would make more money and have a better life for my family and I. However, with the tax system as it is now, in order to live that better lifestyle w/out putting myself in too much debt (yeah right I'm up to my ears now like everybody else), I almost have to make exponentially more money in order to see a linear progression of real income (after taxes - why even bother counting pre-tax income?).

and some people will never be rich because they are too damn cynical.

I'm not cynical, I just know not to believe the kind of crap that infomercials sell.


Unless Billy Mays endorses it. If Billy Mays endorses it... IT MUST BE TRUE!

First, you must acquire the assets and financial freedom. Then you can live life at your own pace.


Working a job never lets you live life at your own pace because you are either working for someone else or yourself and your ability to make money is completely reliant on your ability to work. No work, no money. The problem is, you can only do so much work physically.

To be free, you have to focus on investments or owning a business to supplement (or even eventually replace) your job. When other people work for you (business) or when your money works for you (investments) you make money without any additional effort on your part. That's why these things are called assets--- it's steady, self-sustaining income that does not require you to do anything to make it work once its established. Good assets never get tired-- they work for you 24/7.

If the real estate bubble bursts, as it is predicted to do within the next ten years (at least in places such as California), I will just sit and laugh.

bubbles may burst, but it will rebound and rise higher than it was before. When it bursts, that's when I will really get in and clean up. It will come back b/c what other state on the west coast can replace California?

Why would you laugh if a market crashed? Although a real estate collapse wouldn't have the same effect as other types of markets it's still laughing at someone's misfortune.

which is why I will keep a good accountant with a knowledge of tax law on my rolodex who will make sure that I exploit evey loophole and tax break that I am eligible for, along with a good lawyer who specializes in tax law, whom I will check with to make sure that everything that I'm doing is legal.

That way, I'll be able to reap the benefits without having to worry about tax law myself.

So unless you have this anonymous lawyer , or accountant on the phone while you're posting, I'm going to assume you don't know what the hell you're talking about.



PS, haven't you ever heard of being fed a line of bull?

You sure sound like an infomercial.


Next thing you know, at the end of all your posts you're just going to start typing "Set it, and forget it!"

I'm talking about concepts, not actual nuts and bolts. I plan to specialize in concepts. I'm going to hire people to worry about the nuts and bolts of the law. It's far more efficient than doing everything yourself.

PS: Set it and forget it. :p

This is seriously ridiculous. Your going to keep an accountant and lawyer on your rolodex when you become a billionaire.

Good ****ing luck. I mean seriously, you have no goddamn clue what you are talking about. You have no actual plan beyond a bunch of vague bull**** like "I plan to acquire assets to improve my cash flow"

you haven't thought this through in the least.

I think that just establishes that you don't know what you're talking about, and that you're pretty naive.

how so?

A trademark of a good leader is the ability to delegate different tasks. Why should I learn everything there is to know about something like tax law, when there are people who specialize in it and can do a better job managing it than I could? Even people can be assets for me, since their services help save me money and keep everything legit.

Another trademark of a good leader is to know what the hell is going on, instead of dealing in "concepts."


Your thinking is whack.

You guys are being really harsh, how about you stop and think about what he's suggesting. For example, home rentals. I have a friend who started buying homes when he was 19. He bought his first one for half the price he was approved for on his bank loan, and then paid twice the monthly payment. So it was paid off in something like ten years. After that, he bought another home, again for half the price he was approved for on the loan (which was significantly more than the last time). He then paid over twice as much per month as agreed, and also included the income from renting out his first home. It was paid off in less than 10 years this time. He repeated that a few times, and now he's got a home and 5 rentals, 4 of the rentals are completely paid off, and he's making a few grand per month just off that.

Now consider actually going at that as a full time business. Buying real estate, fixing it up, renting it out. Not a glamorous job, and certainly not going to make you a billionaire, but he sure does have a lot more free time than most people I know. Now think if he sold all his houses how much money he would have. And he could use that to invest in something like an apartment complex or a real estate development. Once you have the capital you can definitely find solid investments. Once you have money, it becomes easier to make money.

I'm still a firm believer in a person's individual ability to have a dream and make cash (if in fact that is what you want to do with your life). I just don't share page's almost religious fanatacism about the subject

Seriously, though, no need to be so harsh right? How about having a civilized discussion w/out all those insults and whatnot?

But he didn't suggest anything like that. He didn't suggest anything at all. He just said hes going to make money off "concepts" and "delegating". I mean really, I don't mean to insult but he shouldn't act like such a know-it-all, when he seems to know very little. Come back when you have more then vague ideas and maybe we will take some faith in your quixotic dream.

The difference was, that we're talking about income tax, and tax loopholes... and the only things he can come up with are stuff he read in a book thats sold to gullible people.

The fact that he said he doesn't plan to learn the nuts and bolts leads me to believe that he doesn't know them now, and therefore shouldn't be making statements in a holier than thou style.






Again I'm just running with this....

But this has got to be the 4th or 5th thread I've watched him do this in.

You better be careful or I'll put your buttered side up

On the contrary, I do know what is going on. I'm not going to be a specialist. I plan to learn the basics about a wide variety of trades and subjects, and that gives me the ability to see the big picture and what needs to be done in any given situation. That's why I'm seeking diverse, temporary employment currently. Working for a short time at a diverse selection of jobs lets me learn a little about a lot of different things. I know that I'm going to need this knowledge and experience later.

The problem is, you're thinking like a specialized employee, and I'm thinking more like a business owner. It's a whole different game. My friend who does this told me once, "Money is made with a pen, not a hammer."

You crack me up Brian.

Like the back end of a plumber, even.



(Note, I was just saying what you said there was funny... I wasn't making light of your authoratah.)

very true. I plan to start with buying distressed properties, rehabbing them, and then renting them. I'm not going to make billions overnight by starting this way, but it's a start, and I plan to move up as I gain experience. (In fact, this is how Trump got started in Cincinatti) Eventually I plan to make the jump to commercial real estate (there is a s***ty hotel down by the waterfront that I'm hoping to buy someday, and with a little bit of work it could be a very nice hotel) .

There is a lot of undeveloped land down by the Long Beach coast, and I may even try my hand at development.

Don't mock me

There we go again with that holier then thou attitude. Give it up. You are not rich, you are not a business owner. You have read a few dumb books and think you are the next Donald Trump. Get over yourself.

And what about the people who don't want to do real estate? I enjoy writing code - the challenge of being given an assignment, figuring out an optimal algorithm, and then converting said algorithm to code and implementing it. This is what I would like to do with my life. I don't want to be a landlord.

Your "get rich off of real estate" only works for people who want to go into real estate (assuming that it works, in the first place). It doesn't work for us white-collared peons.

In addition, if everyone became landowners, then the price would increase and availability would decrease - there's 293 million people in the U.S., and only so much square acreage.

It depends on what you want out of life. I would like to get paid to watch TV but that's really not going to work out. Regarding code, if you want to be handed assignments and be done when they are complete, you probably won't make much money. But if you think up a cool idea, write some software, and sell it (or subscriptions to it), you can probably make more than a decent living. You just have to decide whether you want to own a business (and live with the risks and possible rewards) or work for someone else (and live with the risks and possible rewards).

Man...this thread should be locked...it's getting pretty heated around here. :\

do what you want to do, it makes no difference to me. You like writing code for money, I like the idea of acquiring assets that generate money for me. You like solving programming glitches, I know that I will enjoy the challege of making deals. We're just different in that way.


It's not meant to be holier-than-thou. Different people think differently. Being an employee has its merits, just like being an owner has its merits, and different types of people prefer to earn money different ways. It's just that we see the world differently.

While you may love working for money, I know that I could never be happy as an employee and I would hate every minute of it. Being self-employed isn't for me, either, but being an investor/business owner really appeals to me.

Taken out of context.

I have learned the concept AND nuts and bolts of acquiring property and getting loans to do it with. That's what I'm going to do myself. Everything else I can have done for me by other people.

Page, as a kid whose uncle whom he lived with for many years builds and renovates houses for a living, and as a kid who helped him and knew everything about everything through every step of the way, watching him, I'm gonig to tell you right now--you're not going to get anywhere by buying homes and 'rehabbing' them. Buy new houses if anything. Your house you buy could very well have unfixable problems. Other than that, you need a better plan, because you only have the basics mapped out. You'll find out soon you need more than just "I'll have people that'll help me". The first few years you start your 'business' you won't have crap from anyone. It'll be you, and only you.

Trust me, I watched my uncle climb his way up and I know this stuff. I asked him about everything every step of the way. I'll tell you right now, you have no idea where you're going with this. Not to mention this is going to be a lot more work than you think. Illegals are not reliable, and I know you're going to be using them a lot for work, and often you'll have to do things yourself. As a person who has next to no experience in the field, you'll find yourself hard pressed to do this.

only a place that is red tagged cannot be fixed.

It's an obvious concept but whether or not you implement it is the question. And seeing how you've apparently taken over as the forum jerk, you can hardly be trusted to do that.

That's how it should be, but not how it is. My uncle's selling a house that has a structural problem. Meaning it's got a crack in the brick that shouldn't be there because the brick are supporting the weight of the house. It's still on the market, even though it cannot be fixed.

You'd be surprised at these sorts of things and how common they are.

Well with Mikus now gone SOMEONE had to take over.

Wha? What happened to mikus? I think I missed that one.

Yeah, you have to consider, after buying your first house, you will have payments if you borrowed money. Considering the payments, will you have enough to just pay people to fix everything and still sell it for enough money to get a profit? The thing is, most people who know how to do these things (like fixing up houses) are already doing them for their own personal profit, why would they want to take less from you to do the same thing?

A lot of the time, damage is really cosmetic, but you also have to learn how to look for structural problems. If the foundation is cracked, then that is a major repair and the property should not be bought unless you were planning on removing the structure anyway and rebuilding from scratch. (even then, that gives you the land under the structure at a signifigant discount) The same goes for major fire damage. You would be surprised at what can be fixed even though it looks hopeless.

Even bad termite damage can be repairable. It takes many years for a termite infestation to completely ruin the stability of a structure, often it looks worse than it really is. Even something as simple as a mobile jack (or several of them) with appropriate weight capacity can support the weight of part of the building while damaged sections are repaired. If in doubt, consult someone who is an expert in structural engineering.

You don't always buy with the intent to sell. My primary plan is to buy and hold, but I would not be adverse to selling in some instances if it would give me more.

I already knew that you couldn't back it up. I repeatedly referred to it as a "false claim", remember?

Seriously, you shouldn't need to be prompted five times to either back up your claims or rescind them. If you lack the knowledge to affirm and defend the validity of something you've read, at least be honest enough to admit it outright. It really wouldn't kill you to prefix your Kiyosaki regurgitations with qualifiers like "I read" or "Robert Kiyosaki said", instead of boldly claiming that you "know" this and that.

Losing the "Haha, the rich exploit the system and screw the wage slaves, that's awesome" attitude would also be nice.

Uh...foundations crack all the time. Slabs crack days after they're poored. It's just how they're poored. The only kind of cracks you have to worry about are long ones and/or ones on the sides. But just a crack in a slab is nothign to worry about.

And termite damage is more trouble than it's worth to fix. And I severely doubt a jack can hold up a side of a building for days.

Big cracks are what I'm talking about. I thought I made that clear.

Jacks and shoring can go a long ways towards providing temporary reinforcement and support for virtually anything. Jacks are used to reinforce the floor or ceiling, and shoring helps hold up walls. If you do it this way, it's advisable to fix damaged supports one at a time and reinforce the area with a jack, not rip the supports out all at once and hold the whole building up with jacks. Russ Whitney (the guy who wrote Building Wealth) gave me this idea when he wrote in his book that he once bought a house with massive termite damage in the supporting beams in the basement. Other buyers were turned off by the damage, so the house was on the market for a long time and it was bargain priced. All Whitney had to do was use portable jacks to hold up the ceiling while the supporting beams were replaced. It wasn't too expensive, and he resold the house and made $15,000 on it. That gave me the idea that if jacks worked for that, then it might be good for other things, too.

Generally, if the damn building looks like it's about to collapse and is sagging to one direction, or if the floor slants down towards a corner in the interior of the house, don't buy it unless you just want the land underneath it.
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