I love how the country has more problems than it can solve, such as homelessness, poverty, school funding, etc., but lawmakers who can do something about it would rather vote seven times on whether or not flag burning should be allowed. It's not that hard. Yes, it's disrespectful, but anyone should be free to do it if they wish. I don't understand why they have to continuously debate the same topic, even when it has failed seven times. And honestly, don't you think the police should have better things to do than imposing fines on someone who burns a flag?

As for the more powerful eminent domain going into effect, I'm not happy about that at all. If I own land, it should be mine. Plus, like Brian said, who is the government to know what my house is worth? What if I design and build my own house, not just a cookie cutter tract home? I don't trust the local government to accurately assess the fair market value of my home. If they ever tried to pull that on me, they would have to fight me tooth and nail to get it passed. I would be an Arthur Dent if need be.

i just read bits of this topic, and already it makes me sick. and i am an australian. btw, if the amendment passes, send us aussie massassians all your american flags, an we will go to a protest outside the U.S. embassy and burn the flags for you. after all, that amendment wont protect flags on australian soil. and it will show that we australians suport the idea of freedom to protest.

good point. The governement is going to f*** you over good if you let them ( its a HUGE conflict of interest for them to take your house and then decide how much it's worth, since they have most of the leverage and they have every incentive to offer you a lower ammount of compensation) , so I would suggest getting a good attorney who specializes in eminent domain disputes and getting an independent third-party appraisal of your home if your house is slated for demolition.

That's a good idea, if it does pass I'll mail you some american flags as long as you promise to video tape the burning and allow me to post it under Massassi Madness

Funny thing is, I've never had the desire to burn an american flag, but after this crap I so want to go out on the street and burn a bunch of them.

I could fly up and help.


Make a whole day of it.

Have a nice little barbeque..

Have you read the first amendment lately?



It covers quite a bit more than free speech, including assembly and petitioning the government (which would include flag-burning). Besides, whether flag-burning is covered under the first amendment isn't even up for debate, because it has been decided that it is. Why do you think they are trying to pass an amendment? The first amendment basically gaurantees that it is illegal for America to take political prisoners. Being incarcerated for burning the flag definitely makes you a political prisoner.

I'd also like to point out the fact that if everyone sells their house and you don't, then you automatically "forfeit" and the government can take your house anyway and pay you a lesser amount then the original offer.

Also, what the government considers "Market Value" for property when purchasing is actually the appraised value of the house which is generally several thousand dollars less then it's true market value. Only about 1 in 10 houses will be over appriased. There's a logical reason behind this. Basically, appraisers are flooded with houses to appraise and don't have enough time to actually go to each house and physically appraise them. They glance over the stats of the house and scrible down a value. Now this is great for those few of us in Real Estate, but it sucks for everyone else.

On the other point of freedom...

Revelution is coming. I've been saying this for years here. It makes me sad that it hasn't come sooner before it got this bad. I also know it will only get worse until the revelution comes. We have a God given right to live peacefully and not be bullied by others. We have the right to seek out and enjoy happiness. And if I have to be damned to hell to keep my children from growing up under a government power that does not respect these unalienable rights, then yes, I will fight! I will fight for a new beginning and a better tomorrow. Not for my sake or the sake of selfishness or some immoral alternate agenda. But for my children and their children and their children's children. I hate to say it, but perhaps it is time. Time to start talking. Time to start building support and making allies. Time to start discovering where your fellow Americans loyalties lay. Do they lay with the current governments propaganda machine or do they lay with the hope of a better, peaceful tomorrow. I fear we will have little time to prepare. Our only advantage will be the knowledge of our fellow Americans whom support the same ideals we do. I fear there will be a moment when we come to a realization that the line has be crossed and we must take back the freedoms that we were once promised. It is time, my brothers. It is time.

For those of you like Wookiee06 that are reading this and rolling your eyes, I ask you to do but one thing. It is not unreasonable and it will help you grow as a person....as an individual. Search the web for reasoning fallacies. "Name that Fallacy" is a good phrase to use. Read them. Learn them. Understand them. Then, when you're confident in your ability to spot them, rewatch recordings of any speech from anyone in the Bush Administration. Note the specific fallacies they use and use your God given reasoning abilites to realize what the implications of the use of those fallacies really mean. Research on the internet and elsewhere what kind of people use these types of fallacies intentionally. I'm a conservitive. But I'm also a realist. Be open minded and keep in mind that not everyone in the political arena is looking out for your best interest...even if they say they are...

If the flag needs protection at all, it needs protection from members of Congress who value the symbol more than the freedoms that the flag represents. - Rep. Jerrold Nadler



Exactly!

jon stewart said something similar last night. he followed it with, 'now the iraqi insurgency will stop.' /sarcasm. it was funny when he said it. then he started to stab himself in the eye with his pen.

when i bought my house, minto paid $100,000,000 for a huge parcel of land to develop. all but about 7 houses sold out. they were right behind us. we were in a row of 9 townhouses. this guys lot was as long as 9 townhouses were wide.
anyway, minto asked to buy them out a few times and they said 'no.' so when the infrastructure changed from electricity lines underground, minto asked the residents of the older houses to switch from the telephone poles to underground. it was going to cost ~$2500 for each house. minto wasn't going to pay for it. that's 7 x 2500 and they paid $100,000,000 for the land. i was there for almost 2 years and the telephone poles were still there. minto refused to kick out the $22,000 to get rid of them. and the residents refused to pay for it out of pocket. good for them i say.

Agreed.

Even if America was ready for a civil war, which it most definitely is not, the instigators wouldn't stand a chance in hell militarily. Attempt to overthrow your government if you must, but know that you will be up against the world's most sophisticated military. Complete with eons of munitions, troops, tanks, spy satellites, communication networks, squadron after squadron of fighters, bombers, stealth aircraft, spy planes, nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers, cruisers, and let's not forget more nukes than it knows what to do with.

You say you're a realist; I say that's bull. You have failed to come to the indissolubly real conclusion that no military effort against the United States is going to succeed. The days of the second amendment ensuring our ability to overthrow the government have been over for more than one hundred years. Why? Because simple firearms are no match for the impressive list above.

No, a civil war in America is not going to happen. The only way America is going to be reformed is politically.

You seem to think that there is actually a choice between a country ruled by 'a big, powerful government' or a country ruled by 'free, private individuals;. (Even if that was a choice, I don't trust some random loser sitting in his pants with a gun to uphold law, I trust the people I vote for. I didn't vote for that random loser in his pants)


That simply isn't a reality. We don't live as tiny communities of individuals anymore, this isn't the 19th century.
The choice you have is between a country ruled by a big, powerful government or big, powerful corporations.
That is the choice that faces you.
The biggest threat to democracy comes not from Islamists, or Congress, it comes from the ridiculously rich and powerful corporations that influence government policy.

You don't need a 'small government', that won't create a country full of 'free individuals'. It will give the corporations only more power to exploit workers and government for its profit.
You need a government that is willing and able to protect the rights of workers and unions over the desires of corporation, a government willing and able to oppose their power.

A democratic government is accountable to the people, even a large, powerful democratic government is. Corporations are not. Boycotts and petitions are meaningless and will only affect the bottom rung workers, the very people being exploited as it is. More power to the government is more power to the people.

The American government is already pitifully powerless and overcome by corporate will.

How many members of the American military would willingly slaughter.. Americans?

Granted, law enforcement seems to have no problem with on the small scale (ie Waco), but if there was a massive revolution, one with popular support, do you think that a military made up of Americans would fight Americans? Do you think commanders would order say, Omaha Nebraska firebombed? Or Columbus, Ohio hit with cruise missiles?

Revolution will probably never happen, but honestly I've heard respected intellectuals in my community voice their opinion that another Civil War IS coming. Political reform is impossible.

Does April 12, 1861 ring a bell?

I was going to comment on the rest of your post, and then I saw this at the bottom. That IS the problem. The lines between corporations and government have blurred. I HATE to bring this up, but before he became Vice President, Cheney was CEO(was it CEO? maybe president) of Halliburton, the large corporation that's gotten so many huge deals in Iraq. Our government is being infiltrated by the corporations. How many senators and judges have been bought off? How many ex-CEOs are in government? The government is today (partially) an extension of corporate will, and that's the problem. Corporations don't care about rights, they care about profits.

I think it's safe to say the situation is quite different. Back then it was basically militia vs. militia, where it was common folk fighting common folk, not massive well equipped military fighting common folk. And one can hardly call the Civil War a "revolution".

To make myself look even more like a nutjub, I'll quote Jefferson.



And there's this:
I think the poll itself is down now though.



edit: someone said this on another forum:

Soldiers take an oath to do whatever the president tells them to do.

Oh yeah man, exactly! You have no idea how much I do this nowadays. I don't debate anymore. All I say is

'burden of proof'. 'slippery slope'. 'poisoning the well'. 'appeal to emotion'. etc etc....

I agree *completely*: people should learn at least 30-40 of these as a kid, arming them from the crap people throw at us. It's amazing how little is left after you tear down the bull****.

I'm fairly certain, though, that, in such a case, they would be protected legally under the clause that protects soldiers from disciplinary measures if they honestly believe that such an order from a superior officer was wholly immoral.

I don't remember seeing any such clause..

'sides.. morality is subjective.. if a soldier thinks it's immoral to take human life and goes AWOL, his *** is in the brig.

It was put into place after the Nuremburg Trials, to deal with the "I was just following orders" argument.

Since no one else answered this, RESPECTFUL Flag burning is still ok (ex, it's damaged so you respectfully burn it.)
I don't agree with it (the flag bill) though, because what right does the government have to stop a *peaceful* protest in the form of disrespecting the flag? So long as there is no harm or infringement on another citizens rights, the government should not be able to remove that option of protesting. I don't believe in desecrating the flag, but it is still a form of protest that shouldn't be blocked.

Now, I think I can safely say that the majority of Americans are opposed to the ruling on eminent domain. I sincerely hope and pray that another case about this will come up and the Supreme Court will reevaluate their decision. It has happened several times in the past where the Court looks at the public response and reverses its decision to suit the public. I can only hope that they realize how much of a mistake they made. That's all I will say on that because I don't trust myself not to say something on this matter that will get me banned.

Of course it covers more than speach. I didn't say otherwise. As far as the speach portion goes it has been perverted. Like someone above said it means freedom of expression. It's quite easy to understand. Plainly written. I don't believe burning a flag is speaking or petitioning anything.



It has been decided that it is but that doesn't make the decision correct. Let's not forget that the Supreme Court also decided themselves to be the final constitutional authority. THAT isn't even in the constitution. Flag burning, abortion, privacy are all interpretted to be constitutionally acceptable by the courts even though there not specifically addressed in the constitution but guns are specifically addressed in the constitution and they can't get that right!



Pretty much the whole Bill of Rights is there to limit the governments power over the individual. That's why I fundamentally agree that flag burning should not be made illegal. I just don't see it as a speach issue.

So, let's just agree to disagree on the basis for our conclusion, that we both seem to agree on.

I'm sorry, can someone explain this whole thing to me in a nutshell?

So...this it?

They're (trying?) making flag burning illegal and there's debate over whether that infringes upon free speech.

As someone who took the oath, it's to do whatever LAWFUL ORDER is given by a superior officer.

There are no laws about killing revolutionaries AFAIK. Besides, everyone knows the laws ar lax for the military anyway. It's not like I can walk around carrying an M-16 like they can.

I'm sorry, it has to be done.

The Daily Show with Jon Stewart:

"An impression came to me that, the majority of American flag burning happens over seas. To ban Flag burning in America is like burning...say uh...banning the metric system."

Also..

Title 36 of the U.S. Code states, "When it (the flag) is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, the flag should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning."

That is all.

The next part, with the "But Republicans are pushing for the flags to be kept alive through a feeding tube" was gold.

The point would be, if they were ordered to kill american citizens, it is possible that they will feel this is an unlawful order.

Now the Roman's used to have decimations when soldiers refused orders... When do we get those?

As a private citizen, I'm no more able to walk around the streets of America carrying an automatic weapon than you are. Even for official reasons there are few allowable reasons for me to have one off of a military reservation. Civilian law enforcement carries far more weapons than the military does in civil areas. What laws are you talking about being lax for military? We all live with the same laws. You're making my brain hurt.

Well, it would depend upon the situation. All military members, and nearly all government officials, do swear an oath to protect the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. More for public consumption than yours as I know you know the oath well.

I forget, which communist writer said that capitalism would eventually destroy itself? Marx was it? I'll give it 50 years at most...

I say sooner. We're gonna blow ourselves to high hell anyway. Someone's gonna get really pissed. They're going to lash out, that's gonna piss off some some other blokes, and before you know it, the globe is emitting beta radiation like none other.

I have only one thing to add to this discussion.

Who is John Galt?

(P.S. if you ahven't read Atlas Shrugged, don't worry about it)

They'll have to take my land... BY FORCE.

Seriously.

Call in the Millitary.



I'll stockpile YEARS WORTH of crappy canned food in advance, and bottled water.

MOVE ME FROM WHAT I OWN... I DARE YAH.



That is.. if I owned property..

Which actually I have, when I was little.. I inherited a chicken farm... which my parents (mostly my mother) sold because they had power of attorney over the land..

Yeah.. never saw a god damned penny of that money..

John Galt is the guy who is oppressing workers by allowing them to work for wage! All companies are bad!