One other nasty thing with mustard gas - they'd taint it with a pleasant smell, so it would waft over and you'd go "Mmm...? Mmm!" *drop dead*



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We are all dying to live, yet living to die...

Yes, I have as much fun with mustard gas as my hampster has in the microwave.

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OSC Empire | A.H.N.U.L.D.
[Jim7 PING reply]: 666secs

It was sarcasm, SAJN. Don't take things out of context.

I'd also like to mention something people forget ALL too often: There isn't just "Terrorists" there are SEVERAL different Shells. Let's simply suggest that the middle eastern attack is legitimate (It isn't, in my opinion, but for argumentive sakes, let's assume it is). It's NOT those "Damn Iraqi's" it's "Those damn Amarab Sheeds" [name made up :-P] that are causing trouble, and all the other different groups. The majorety of them came from neighboring countries to get in on the action. For some reason, bush seems to assume that all countries have borders. The middle east's borders change so rapidly (Because they fight over them so much) that really, there are no certain lines. There's no border control (Well, not before recently, at least. And even now, there's no way we could catch everyone sneaking into iraq. Not with all the underground "cities") to make sure we're only shooting down Iraqis. I'd be willing to bet we're shooting down legal citizens of our allies, half the time. Just because a single WMD is found, doesn't mean there is or isn't more. What it certainly doesn't mean is that you can blame one group on the act, since we've really got NO clue what's going on, and who's attacking who with what.

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

Familiar with Ansar al-Islam?



Ponder, if you will, all of the logical explanations for the existence of a single chemical shell (no more, no less) in Iraq, coupled with Iraq's inability to account for 550 such shells. Then get back to me.



As I've noted before, it took them approximately one hundred days from the start of the war to discover thirty-some buried Iraqi airplanes, including MiG-25s and Su-25s at al-Taqqadum. The only reason the planes were found at all is because some of the sand covering them was displaced by the wind, exposing one plane's tail. That ought to tell you how difficult it is to find anything buried in Iraq.

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"Why aren't I'm using at these pictures?" - Cloud, 4/14/02

Wonderful points, MacFarlane.

No one else has a pair of cents to add to the discussion? I created this thread mainly to see the liberal and conservative responses. So far the results have been amusing.

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Self-righteous people are more sinful than I am.

It's your case to make, not mine. Last time I checked, the link between Ansar al-Islam and Saddam Hussein was nonexistent, shrill but utterly baseless claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

I can come up with dozens of theories of varying realism that would account for the shell and still preclude the existence of government stockpiles. Again, it's your responsibility to make a convincing argument.

It also should tell you how useful anything buried in Iraq is going to be. Chemical and biological weapons have a limited shelf life even with careful storage. Sticking them in the sand in the middle of desert is equivilent to destroying them.

Then why not publicly claim to destroy them. Would have saved a lot of trouble, if you ask me.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Avenger: The Iraqi government said many times that it was not in violation of the appropriate UN resolutions. Various defectors have claimed that all of Iraq's WMDs were destroyed immediately after the Gulf War.

If there are WMDs in Iraq they are probably a few strays mixed in with conventional weapons that were honestly overlooked. There is no reason Hussein's government would keep them around and not use them.

Excuse me... But did I EVER say anything about being Ignorant? I believe I said that I was "tired of hearing about it", does this not clue you in at ALL to the fact that I've been hearing/watching/reading the news?

Where did this "blame america" crap come from? We DID give them WMDs at some point, did we not? So can I not then blame my country? Hell, it isn't even clear why we're THERE anymore. When we first went in, it was to eliminate Hussein's stock piles of WMDs (Some of which we GAVE him). Have we ever found anything even remotely like a stockpile? No. Is it there? Probably not. So, we changed our reason. Now we are there to free the Iraq people who were tortured and killed by Hussein's military and show them democracy while we're at it. So far, we're doing a wonderful job. I mean, we're taking innocent people, locking them up, and torturing them. Hussein's tourture and interrogation rooms are still open, just under new management. We claimed at one point that Hussein had links to Osama and Al-Qaeda. If memory serves me correctly, the two loathed and despised each other, so I find it highly unlikely that they would have ties to each other.

Yes, I'm highly uninformed and ignorant. Do I claim to know as much as I probably could about the situation? No, but frankly, I don't want to know to terribly much more. It annoys and sickens me enough as is. The first thing I hear in the morning when I get up is NPR. NPR and the news from Iraq. I just love waking up to that. After 8 in the evening, I stop with the news and move on with other things, like comming here. The last thing I'll listen to usually before comming here will include something about Iraq. Hell, even while I'm online going to check my mail, I can't help but read at least 3 or 4 different headlines about something in Iraq.

I am NOT ignorant. I am NOT uninformed. I AM sick of hearing about it. And I AM on the verge of not caring one way or the other anymore. Don't take that the wrong way, I'll still keep up with events, I just won't give a damn anymore.

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Frogblast the Vent Core!

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[This message has been edited by phoenix_9286 (edited May 19, 2004).]

Hussein has at least tolerated, if not encouraged, the presence of an Al-Qaeda splinter group within Iraq. Surely this qualifies as "harboring terrorists," no?



If you expect me to prove, here and now, that government stockpiles exist, I'm afraid I can't do that right now. All I can do is draw a reasonable inference from the data I already have. As I see it, the explanation that best fits the facts is that the mustard gas shell and the sarin shell came from larger stockpiles, consisting of the shells and bombs unaccounted for by Saddam Hussein.



And? Faced with certain defeat, why wouldn't Saddam Hussein try to eliminate evidence that would legitimize the U.S. invasion?

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"Why aren't I'm using at these pictures?" - Cloud, 4/14/02

[This message has been edited by Michael MacFarlane (edited May 19, 2004).]

Michael: The US has at least tolerated, if not encouraged, the presence of violent white supremacist groups within the United States. Surely that qualifies as "harboring terrorists", no?

No. Until you can show active communication or cooperation, their mere presence means nothing.

Great. So we have baseless conjecture. I think that the shells probably came from conventional stockpiles. Since they were unlabeled, they were probably thrown in a pile of similar shells in the aftermath of the Gulf War and forgotten. Why is your explanation as probable? Chemical and biological weapons from 1991 or before are way past-dated now. Why would Iraq keep them? Why would they manufacture new ones if they would similarly expire in a few years?

Why wouldn't he use them instead? If he had the enormous quantities of WMDs that the administration said he did, he could have made a significant difference in the war's outcome. If he was faced with certain defeat, why would he care about the legitimization of the US invasion when he was going to be exiled, captured, or killed?