http://pptkids.org/

Scroll down to what you kids should be praying for this week.

It seems to me that we shouldn't vote for presidents anymore, just pray that they'll agree with our opinions.

Aww, nice kids site and fairytales.

Vacation?



They do?

Of course that's not what i'm trying to say... rather...



This website was updated 3 days ago and talks about the hurricane... However when it talks about things to pray for it doesn't even mention the hurricane.... rather it suggests you pray for cheaper gasoline. Don't pray for the people who died in the hurricane... pray that the oil rigs refineries it knocked out doesn't make gas more expensive.

Nevermind the caption for the image of President Bush with Lance Armstrong...



It's ridiculous. I mean I'd understand if this website was never updated, but it was on September 2nd, and it doesn't even suggest that you pray for hurricane victims in a special section called "What to pray for this week."

****, future post.

And where exactly was that written?

What evil deeds we Christians do in praying for others instead of ourselves. For shame!

Two words: Christian Humanism

Where do you think the name "Salvation Army" came from?

Typically, though, they lead by example rather than preaching.

Yeah, I guess the very first section of the page wasn't for that. It's not as though it says "Special Hurricane Katrina Notice" right at the top of the left column. And it definitely doesn't say any of the following things in that section: ...or... Hurricane Katrina clearly wasn't on their minds. :p

<3 Teddy

Regardless, the intent of the organization is hardly to pray for a totally neccessary cause...



http://www.presidentialprayerteam.org/history.php

You have yet to indicate your point. What is wrong with praying for the president?

The fact is that you assume (strawman fallacy) that they are praying for the president to share a viewpoint, wherein it is quite clear they are simply praying for the president, just as the Bible says for Christians to pray for those in leadership. Nowhere does it say they are praying for the president to be Christian, share a certain viewpoint, or anything like that.

What is the point in praying for Bush? It won't do anything.

I've had plenty of people praying for me and it's not like God came and rewired my brain so I would make better decisions. It's just... weird. And if you ask me, it's dangerous to have a group of people out there that think praying solves problems. You can't just will something into being fixed, you have to get up and take action.

Funny. I see my prayers answered 90% of the time without actually doing squat or telling anyone what I'm praying about.

Nobody (in their right mind) prays for "brain rewiring."

Same thing. Do you think parying for Bush makes him make better decisions? That's ludricrous.

I believe it may (note the word) cause 'an influence' upon him. I don't believe it makes him do anything at all.

That's F---ing scary.

I'm with DogSRoOL on this one. I fail to see how there's a problem with praying for the president.

Maybe we'll start a thread saying "WHY DO PEOPLE BOW DOWN AND FACE MECCA TO PRAY?! Don't they realize that the Earth is not flat and thus to actually be facing Mecca they would have to point their body directly at the ground?! And praying?! For ****'s sake, it's not the 8th century people!"

I mean, do you people even understand Christian doctrine or just making a careless accustation against it?

And the website is designed for KIDS. So the captions on the pictures are childlike - ever looked at a kids book before? It's not rocket science...

I swear - people ***** about everything

I don't think they pray for him to make better decisions. More likely to continue to have the strength to make the hard, right (not hard right, or, ... maybe so ;)) ones.

I agree with DogsRool. That is all I'll say for now

Wow. Christians are praying for the President. Lets all gasp in complete and utter horror.


I've got to say I also agree with DogsRool. I pray for the president. No matter who he is.

Let people have their practices. Unless it actually directly involves the presence of the government (1st Amendment material) or it results in someone being injured because of the prayer, where's the harm?

I would also like to point that there were no Christians in America in the 700's.

OH OKAY THANK YOU WEB SITE FOR TELLING ME SO

Um, that said I don't really have a problem with the website...as long as it's keeping the little kids out of trouble. :p

Crazy christians, recruiting children to spin the prayer wheels. Naughty.

Okay, when people pray for the president, what exactly are they praying for, and why the hell can't they do it themselves? Do they even know what they're praying for? I asked dogsrool, and he gave me a non-definitive answer.

An influence.

Okay, what is this influence supposed to do? It does do something, right? Or else, why do it? What is it that this praying is supposed to accomplish? I offered a suggestion: forcing the president to make good decisions, but that suggestion was shot down. So what? What is it? Is this influence supposed to cause Bush to enforce some kind of theocracy? That's about the only thing I can come up with.

And if this 'influence' doesn't force the president to take some action, then what is it doing? Nothing. Nothing at all. So either free will is out the window, or your prayers are futile. Which is it?

I'm less bothered about the praying and more worried about the over patriotism. Praying for the president whether you like him or not? That just seems silly to me.

There was a scientific test to see if prayer worked called the mantra study and the short answer was no. The trend was that it made no difference unless the person was a believer and knew they were being prayed for. (Placebo effect).

That is the most screwed up site I've seen in a long time.

And I look at porn.

Freelancer, you're looking for actual concrete evidence on the benefits - and besides the studies that show that people who pray have better mental health and other things (there's been many studies - google it), then it probably ain't going to happen.

Google websites on why and how people pray, and try to understand - but I doubt you will because you want physical benefits of why people pray for what they do. Many people pray for things they want. Others pray for people like Bush because they somehow want God to help guide him and make right decisions. Now I'm sure you'll have 100 retorts to that on how it's failed, stupid, no benefit, etc...but are you a Christian? Why should they have to justify their beliefs and what they pray for to you?

And prayer with multiple people is supposed to be better than just one person praying for it (I believe there's a bible passage on it). And how can it hurt for someone to tell someone to pray for something. Its not like they're praying for Timmy to get a PS2. Bush, like it or not, has a big impact on the world - and so regardless of party - they can pray that he makes the right decisions - whether the public views it that way or not.

And why should people be told what to pray? Ever been to any church? What does the priest, pastor, etc tell people to do? What did Jesus do in the bible?

[url]www.google.com[/url] it, but there's no point because you want concrete proof and that just won't be found. That's part of the reason it's called faith.

I'm just surprised you all are so naive as to make a big deal out of this. It's only been going on for thousands of years with Christianity. It shows how some people to need to expand their knowledge on the ways religions/groups work before slamming them down.

Freelancer -- they could be praying that the president is shown the better decisions in a clear light without FORCING the president to make those decisions himself. If you want to debate the semantics and/or theories involving free will, I can't help you there.

Also, we're suppose to love our enemies, so whether we agree with the president or not should not stop a Christian from praying.

Also, praying and other such practices are what we'd like to call "faith-based" -- I don't see them stopping because a study says they don't have an effect.

EDIT: Rats, the above poster beat me to the punch.

The goal of praying for someone to make the right decisions is not to ask God to force the person into making the right decisions, but rather to suggest or influence the person in the right direction and to give them the wisdom, courage, and/or strength to make the right choice. Not to "force" them in that direction, but to influence them so that they might think twice about it before making their choice, but ultimately the choice is still theres. Like saying to someone "Hey, maybe you shouldn't do that," but not forcing them. Ultimately, however, it would depend on how open their heart is, and wether God chooses to influence them or not (we have to understand that what we think should be done isn't necessarily what God wants, and that he answers prayers in his own time and his own way, which might not always be the way we expect.)

That, anyway, is what I believe, and what I understand to be the teaching of most christian churches, though I'm hardly an expert on the latter. These are, however, my beliefs, and I understand that many people believe otherwise, so feel free to disagree or to believe something different than myself. I'm merely trying to clear up some apparent confusion.

Er... how does praying for the president to make decisions that will help America, regardless of that president's political alignment, constitute patriotism? It sounds more like pragmatism to me. After all, surely no one wants their leader to make the country worse?

Kind of on that, I never remember growing up hearing about people being too overpatriotic...

But after the tension died down with 9/11, that's when I really recall people complaining how there were flags on everyone's car, and people didn't mean it - people being overpatriotic.

It's weird in a way...

Just the thread title makes me think you need some serious help.

[QUOTE=Michael MacFarlane]Er... how does praying for the president to make decisions that will help America, regardless of that president's political alignment, constitute patriotism? It sounds more like pragmatism to me. After all, surely no one wants their leader to make the country worse?[/QUOTE]

Pragmatic? You think anything regarding prayer is pragmatic? Prayer is hardly a "practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems." I would say that prayer is practically an antonym of pragmatism.

The thing that bothers me about this website is the zeal for prayer. The total lack of pragmatism and the degree of faith. I have no problem with religion, or at least none that i'm going to strike up here, but when you start to say that prayer is enough, and that one doesn't need to pursue pragmatism in order to solve the world's problems, then you're treading on dangerous grounds. I don't think that this website suggests this entirely, but I think the notion of prayer does. I know that Christianity has had a long history of assisting those in need in pragmatic ways (food, water, building homes, etc) and i acknowledge the emphasis that this organization puts on education, but it can't help but make me feel uncomfortable.

[QUOTE=Kieran Horn]Just the thread title makes me think you need some serious help.[/QUOTE]

You're not just getting away with a one liner.

Bit late for all that.

I fully agree, and you'll find that the bible teaches this as well. We are not to expect God to do all of our work for us; on the contrary, God says that our lives will be full of struggle, and that we'll have to fend for ourselves until the day we die (Genesis 3:17-19 is the passage that comes to mind, though I'm sure there are others as well). Rather, we pray that God will help us with our struggles, and to lend us the wisdom, courage, and strength we need to live full and righteous lives.

Yes, expecting prayer alone to solve all of our problems is lazy, selfish, and ignorant. However, there's no harm in using prayer to supplement helping in other ways, but keep in mind that sometimes praying is the only thing that some people can do.

[Edit: for the record, I'm saying things like "we" and "our", but I don't mean to be preaching or forcing my beliefs on anyone or anything like that, so I apologize if I come off that way]

Right - that's all that matters (to me). Shelter, food, water, civil rights, peace - all things that require concrete actions to obtain and all are concrete benefits. What else could I need? Are you suggesting that prayer fulfills some need? If so, then it's obviously not a necessary - or even perceptable - need (for me).


I did take you up on that google search. I can see how praying might reduce depression and anxiety. However, I can also see meditation or even sitting in a quiet place providing the same benefits. It's not praying I have a problem with, it's two main things: first, the mentality that prayer is the answer rather than political activism, and second, the fact that so many don't truly know what they're praying for. I think if many prayers were thoughtfully considered, it would be discovered that the prayer undermines many things Christians stand for.


I don't doubt that prayer yields the tangible benefits of reduced anxiety (observable by blood pressure). What I do doubt is that prayer yields any other tangible benefits.


I was a Christian for eighteen years of my life. I've heard my share of prayers, and I'm pretty familiar with the type of things people pray for in public prayers. That experience is limited to one sect of Christianity - but there's likely a lot of overlap between sects. It's just that; instead of praying for Bush to be enlightened, why don't you write him a letter? That way, something might be changed; there will have been made a tangible mark on the world, whereas with prayer, probably not. That information would not have been transmitted to Mr. Bush. There's an old saying - actions speak louder than words. I subscribe to that saying.


They sure don't. If I said they did anywhere, I apologize. I certainly want to let everyone believe what they want. They may pray for the president as long as they want. It's just my hope that they wouldn't let that suffice if they really have something the president should know.


Looks like you and me both have reason to dislike this website, then.


I don't see the benefit in praying for something then never being able to verify that the prayer did anything. I don't see the benefit in faith itself. It doesn't provide me with anything I need. In fact, believing on blind faith provides me with something I don't want - blind faith.


As I said earlier - I'm quite well accquainted with prayer and Christianity. But someone has to ask tough questions. It's not right to blindly believe in the traditions of our parents. Why should we embrace their beliefs? Just because they exist?

If person X's parents are Christian (or Hindu, or Islam), it is overwhelmingly statistically likely that person X will be too. To me, that is ****ing scary as hell.

I like the idea, I just don't like their material.

I believe that prayer itself is a matter of faith, so no, that's not what I think, and it's not what I said either. I said that the attitude that would cause someone who believes in prayer to pray for a president he didn't agree with is a pragmatic one. It's akin to believing that, even if the man in office doesn't hold the same views as me, it's still better for the country if he makes good decisions than if he screws up.

There's nothing "over-patriotic" about wanting the president to do a good job.

And I was actually hoping you were kidding. You actually need me to explain why your comparison is horrid? Should I use crayons or large tip markers?

Feudalism is the dominant government. Most people are practically slaves to the lords of the land and live in squallor.
Divine Right is considered the best form of government. This is essentially rulers using God as a BS excuse to justify everything they do from murder, oppression, etc.
There is no personal or economic freedom. The only people that have these are those that run things.
There is no Freedom of Speech. You speak out against the king and you are imprisoned and that's if the king is merciful.
The Papacy has enormous power. They can actually influence nations and even change rulers. They have control.
The Church imposes their religion on the serfs saying "if you suffer now, you will be rewarded in the after life."
"Stay in your place" is a common theme.
Despite the great medicinal advances that occured during Roman times, medicine has essentially been reduced to voodoo.
Hygiene is all but unheard of. Disease runs rampant.
Constant war and bloodshed is a common theme through out the medieval ages, often over land, personal pride, and religion. They make the wars of today look like humanitarian efforts.
The only way to rise in society, if you aren't a part of the oppressed majority peasant class that is, is either through commanding troops, which is unlikely to happen, or by joining the Church and working your way up the ranks.

And here you are comparing a kiddy christian website to all this simply because you don't like what it says.

Studies can be bought and sold like congressmen these days. There have also been studies that link excessive prayer to psychosis. Studies mean very little these days unless you know the exact circumstances under which they were performed.

Yes, I know that - I didn't really state whether I agreed with the studies or not. Just saying those were the only ones I knew were out there