Except 'believing' in God without believing in his will, what do you actually believe?

You believe that he exists.

...

Believing that God exists has implications, whether you like it or not.


All men have penises. If you believe that I am a man, you also believe that I have a penis - even if you just state "I believe Mort is a man".

No it doesn't because god can have any attributes I believe he has. Perhaps I believe in a god that doesn't have a set of absolute morals. Maybe it's god's will that we form our own morals. In that case, the (only) implication you provided earlier doesn't stand.

If you believe in a God, but you also believe he has any attributes that you want, then this makes 'theism' completely meaningless. 'Theism' is not a way of saying "I can believe whatever I want!".

[quote=Mort Hog]If you believe in a God, but you also believe he has any attributes that you want, then this makes 'theism' completely meaningless.[/quote]
...yeah.

Theism is simply the belief in a God. The attributes of said God are not set in stone because you are a theist. if you are religious, then you follow a strict set of ideas about said god. but, as lancer said, all theists are not necessarily 'religious'. Being a theist simply says you believe there is a god. The implications only come into play when you are 'religious'. Mort, please, concede this. even Wolfy conceded it. We're right.

'Religions' differ as to what the will of God actually is, but they all respect that God does actually have some will - because that is a pre-requisite for being a 'god'.

If I could simply say "I believe in God... and god is my cat" and consider myself a 'theist', then this would make the term 'theism' completely useless.

Says you. And many would disagree. Even if he has a will, that doesn't mean that theists must accept it. Even if theists accept it, it doesn't mean they must follow it. Even if they follow it, it doesn't mean they are religious.

...A god that has no will wouldn't do anything, and so wouldn't be a god.



I've already been through this. If they accept that God exists, then they must accept that this is a God with a will (see above), and because this is the will of God it is the ultimate will and the perfect desire. All other desires will be judged against this perfect desire. Even if you're deliberately trying to piss off God by deliberately going against his will, you are still judging your actions against God's desire. And that's the point. Not that the theist will always do 'what God would do', but that the theist will consider 'what God would do' when doing things.

The atheist won't.

So what if the god does have a will. A theist doesn't have to care about the will - he only has to believe that god exists to be a theist.

[quote=Mort Hog]The theist will consider 'what God would do' when doing things.[/quote]

Your entire argument hinges on that? That's weak, dude. I rest my case. You can't make that statement, because it obviously doesn't hold in all cases.

Deists, most apparently.

Again, the difference hinges upon what the will of God actually is.

With deists, the will of God was to create the Universe (and nothing else).

And here's the problem with your argument. Believing that God exists does not necessitate that you believe that God is in any way perfect, or that his will is to be followed. Perhaps you believe in a malicious God, a belief that some (though I'm not one of them) see as more valid than a belief in a benevolent God based on all the bad things that happen in the world. Would it make sense for a theist who believed in such a God to want to do his will?

[QUOTE=Michael MacFarlane]And here's the problem with your argument. Believing that God exists does not necessitate that you believe that God is in any way perfect, or that his will is to be followed. Perhaps you believe in a malicious God, a belief that some (though I'm not one of them) see as more valid than a belief in a benevolent God based on all the bad things that happen in the world. Would it make sense for a theist who believed in such a God to want to do his will?[/QUOTE]

Ah, but I never said want to replicate his will, only that his will would in some way affect you. In this case, it would be in opposition to it.

Mort, okay, will you just answer yes or no to the following question please?

Do all theists inherit (receive, follow, adopt, etc) a set of morals from god?

If you answer no, we will have agreed this entire time on the point I was trying to make. So I hope to god you answer yes or all that arguing was for nothing.

Charles Mingus once said that "making the simple complicated is commonplace;
making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creative."

...Anyone feeling creative? This issue is very confusing, although I don't know if it's because of the inane viewpoints going around, or if it's really supposed to be like this.