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ForumsDiscussion Forum → One of the heroes of our time...
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One of the heroes of our time...
2006-03-11, 7:24 PM #1
This is one of the bravest, most insightful people in the world today. An Arabic woman has actually dared to speak out against all of the fanatics of the Islamic world in one of the most potentially self-sacrificial things anyone has done in relatively recent history.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/international/middleeast/11sultan.html?incamp=article_popular_1
(For those of you who don't wish to register, here's the full text of the article.)
Quote:
For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats
LOS ANGELES, March 10 — Three weeks ago, Dr. Wafa Sultan was a largely unknown Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles, nursing a deep anger and despair about her fellow Muslims.

Today, thanks to an unusually blunt and provocative interview on Al Jazeera television on Feb. 21, she is an international sensation, hailed as a fresh voice of reason by some, and by others as a heretic and infidel who deserves to die.

In the interview, which has been viewed on the Internet more than a million times and has reached the e-mail of hundreds of thousands around the world, Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries.

She said the world's Muslims, whom she compares unfavorably with the Jews, have descended into a vortex of self-pity and violence.

Dr. Sultan said the world was not witnessing a clash of religions or cultures, but a battle between modernity and barbarism, a battle that the forces of violent, reactionary Islam are destined to lose.

In response, clerics throughout the Muslim world have condemned her, and her telephone answering machine has filled with dark threats. But Islamic reformers have praised her for saying out loud, in Arabic and on the most widely seen television network in the Arab world, what few Muslims dare to say even in private.

"I believe our people are hostages to our own beliefs and teachings," she said in an interview this week in her home in a Los Angeles suburb.

Dr. Sultan, who is 47, wears a prim sweater and skirt, with fleece-lined slippers and heavy stockings. Her eyes and hair are jet black and her modest manner belies her intense words: "Knowledge has released me from this backward thinking. Somebody has to help free the Muslim people from these wrong beliefs."

Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling."

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

Her views caught the ear of the American Jewish Congress, which has invited her to speak in May at a conference in Israel. "We have been discussing with her the importance of her message and trying to devise the right venue for her to address Jewish leaders," said Neil B. Goldstein, executive director of the organization.

She is probably more welcome in Tel Aviv than she would be in Damascus. Shortly after the broadcast, clerics in Syria denounced her as an infidel. One said she had done Islam more damage than the Danish cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad, a wire service reported.

DR. SULTAN is "working on a book that — if it is published — it's going to turn the Islamic world upside down."

"I have reached the point that doesn't allow any U-turn. I have no choice. I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book."

The working title is, "The Escaped Prisoner: When God Is a Monster."

Dr. Sultan grew up in a large traditional Muslim family in Banias, Syria, a small city on the Mediterranean about a two-hour drive north of Beirut. Her father was a grain trader and a devout Muslim, and she followed the faith's strictures into adulthood.

But, she said, her life changed in 1979 when she was a medical student at the University of Aleppo, in northern Syria. At that time, the radical Muslim Brotherhood was using terrorism to try to undermine the government of President Hafez al-Assad. Gunmen of the Muslim Brotherhood burst into a classroom at the university and killed her professor as she watched, she said.

"They shot hundreds of bullets into him, shouting, 'God is great!' " she said. "At that point, I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god."

She and her husband, who now goes by the Americanized name of David, laid plans to leave for the United States. Their visas finally came in 1989, and the Sultans and their two children (they have since had a third) settled in with friends in Cerritos, Calif., a prosperous bedroom community on the edge of Los Angeles County.

After a succession of jobs and struggles with language, Dr. Sultan has completed her American medical licensing, with the exception of a hospital residency program, which she hopes to do within a year. David operates an automotive-smog-check station. They bought a home in the Los Angeles area and put their children through local public schools. All are now American citizens.

BUT even as she settled into a comfortable middle-class American life, Dr. Sultan's anger burned within. She took to writing, first for herself, then for an Islamic reform Web site called Annaqed (The Critic), run by a Syrian expatriate in Phoenix.

An angry essay on that site by Dr. Sultan about the Muslim Brotherhood caught the attention of Al Jazeera, which invited her to debate an Algerian cleric on the air last July.

In the debate, she questioned the religious teachings that prompt young people to commit suicide in the name of God. "Why does a young Muslim man, in the prime of life, with a full life ahead, go and blow himself up?" she asked. "In our countries, religion is the sole source of education and is the only spring from which that terrorist drank until his thirst was quenched."

Her remarks set off debates around the globe and her name began appearing in Arabic newspapers and Web sites. But her fame grew exponentially when she appeared on Al Jazeera again on Feb. 21, an appearance that was translated and widely distributed by the Middle East Media Research Institute, known as Memri.

Memri said the clip of her February appearance had been viewed more than a million times.

"The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions or a clash of civilizations," Dr. Sultan said. "It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality."

She said she no longer practiced Islam. "I am a secular human being," she said.

The other guest on the program, identified as an Egyptian professor of religious studies, Dr. Ibrahim al-Khouli, asked, "Are you a heretic?" He then said there was no point in rebuking or debating her, because she had blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet Muhammad and the Koran.

Dr. Sultan said she took those words as a formal fatwa, a religious condemnation. Since then, she said, she has received numerous death threats on her answering machine and by e-mail.

One message said: "Oh, you are still alive? Wait and see." She received an e-mail message the other day, in Arabic, that said, "If someone were to kill you, it would be me."

Dr. Sultan said her mother, who still lives in Syria, is afraid to contact her directly, speaking only through a sister who lives in Qatar. She said she worried more about the safety of family members here and in Syria than she did for her own.

"I have no fear," she said. "I believe in my message. It is like a million-mile journey, and I believe I have walked the first and hardest 10 miles."

Having watched the video on nytimes.com that includes portions of this TV broadcast, she strikes me as a very, intelligent, intense woman with an extremely good point. This is not a battle of cultures as much as a battle between the 21st century and those who refuse to enter the present.
"It is not advisable, James, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener."
"Rationality is the recognition of the fact that nothing can alter the truth and nothing can take precedence over that act of perceiving it."
2006-03-11, 7:30 PM #2
That was the best thing I have read in a while.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2006-03-11, 7:40 PM #3
Now that's a real hero!

Seriously, that is really brave.

I sure as hell wouldn't do something like that if I was islamic.

I give her all the credit in the world!
"Oh my god. That just made me want to start cutting" - Aglar
"Why do people from ALL OVER NORTH AMERICA keep asking about CATS?" - Steven, 4/1/2009
2006-03-11, 7:41 PM #4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ciOGS6r97oE

I found that.

Arabic is such an ugly sounding language. :/

This chick kicks ***, though.
2006-03-11, 7:46 PM #5
[QUOTE=Vincent Valentine]http://youtube.com/watch?v=ciOGS6r97oE

I found that.

Arabic is such an ugly sounding language. :/

This chick kicks ***, though.[/QUOTE]
That's the same video I mentioned in my first post. I just can't believe she has the guts to say and do all of that, especially considering women's traditional role in Islamic society.
"It is not advisable, James, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener."
"Rationality is the recognition of the fact that nothing can alter the truth and nothing can take precedence over that act of perceiving it."
2006-03-11, 7:47 PM #6
Originally posted by Darth_Revan:
That's the same video I mentioned in my first post. I just can't believe she has the guts to say and do all of that, especially considering women's traditional role in Islamic society.

Yeah, you can tell she's pissing tons of people off. That guy who was calling her a heretic looked furious. But the thing is, everything she's saying is absolutely true and she's amazing for being the one to say it.
2006-03-11, 7:53 PM #7
I vote for George Bush to be the best hero of all time! He saved us from the terrorists!
2006-03-11, 8:02 PM #8
May her god [Gods?] Save her from any *******s that try to hurt her.
2006-03-11, 8:12 PM #9
I'm not Islamic, but I sure do wish they wouldn't kill people. From what my family hears about in the Middle East concerning Muslims, we have a very negative view of them.
I'm just being honest....
2006-03-11, 8:21 PM #10
That muslim cleric was obviously making excuses for himself when he said there was no point in rebuking her; I'll bet he honestly couldn't think of what to say that sounded half as intelligent as her. He had to keep his pride intact.

Tell me this; is freedom not even a concept in muslim beliefs? Because the way Wafa is talking, she makes it sound like all muslims hate and excommunicate anybody who doesn't share their same extreme beliefs. In that sense then, yes, they are indeed stuck in a far outdue way of thinking.
2006-03-11, 8:43 PM #11
Non-Muslims are considered Infidels, and if they cannot be converted, they should be killed. I think I prefer religions that say "Our way is right, but we accept that you think differently."

o.0
2006-03-11, 8:55 PM #12
Originally posted by Greenboy:
Non-Muslims are considered Infidels, and if they cannot be converted, they should be killed. I think I prefer religions that say "Our way is right, but we accept that you think differently."

Yes thats the way!
2006-03-11, 8:59 PM #13
Originally posted by Delphian:
Tell me this; is freedom not even a concept in muslim beliefs? Because the way Wafa is talking, she makes it sound like all muslims hate and excommunicate anybody who doesn't share their same extreme beliefs. In that sense then, yes, they are indeed stuck in a far outdue way of thinking.


Islam as a whole is in a similar place of its development as the Catholic Church was during the Dark Ages.

Originally posted by Greenboy:
Non-Muslims are considered Infidels, and if they cannot be converted, they should be killed. I think I prefer religions that say "Our way is right, but we accept that you think differently."


Christianity went through a phase of "our way or the highway". The Dark Ages.
Pissed Off?
2006-03-11, 9:00 PM #14
Originally posted by Greenboy:
Non-Muslims are considered Infidels, and if they cannot be converted, they should be killed. I think I prefer religions that say "Our way is right, but we accept that you think differently."


Like Christianity? :)

[http://utah.indymedia.org/uploads/crusades.jpg]
2006-03-11, 9:02 PM #15
Thrawn, the Crusades' time period Christianity was very distorted, and has been straightened out since then. Yes, the Catholic church was ruling then, yes I'm Catholic, but I admit they did some pretty f-ed up stuff.
I had a blog. It sucked.
2006-03-11, 9:04 PM #16
What I'm saying is the majority of muslims do NOT think all non-muslims should be killed. That's what Christians who fancy themselves religious experts like to say. :p
2006-03-11, 9:04 PM #17
So is this lady like the Martin Luther of Islam?
2006-03-11, 9:14 PM #18
Originally posted by 'Thrawn[numbarz:
']What I'm saying is the majority of muslims do NOT think all non-muslims should be killed. That's what Christians who fancy themselves religious experts like to say. :p

The ones who kill people think that. >.>
And the crusades thing just proves that humans are violent and stupid.

o.0
2006-03-11, 9:58 PM #19
Originally posted by Avenger:
Islam as a whole is in a similar place of its development as the Catholic Church was during the Dark Ages.


Ding ding ding we have a winner!
2006-03-11, 10:02 PM #20
Originally posted by Greenboy:
The ones who kill people think that. >.>
And the crusades thing just proves that humans are violent and stupid.


Shut up! *stab*

:o
2006-03-12, 1:08 AM #21
So, how many days does she have left alive? Anyone want to have a death pool?

As far as what she actually can do... it's like debating with a fundie Christian. Their skulls are so thick with ignorance, anything that goes slightly against their dogma bounces off. They just get irked, but I don't think they actually internalize anything.

As far as sparking debates: I don't know if the "debates" are occurring where they need to occur; not within secular discussions but among the hard-liners. Look at the debates about freakin' evolution on these boards. The fundies just stick their fingers in their ears and just go "lalalalala". They are the ones who need to be reached, and it's insanely hard to reach them. With evolution it's easier, because we have hard facts. Yet they still persist. Imagine trying to debate things less concrete than a natural phenomena. As straight forward as her argument seems (read: jeeze, stop that ****. It's embarrassing us! Seriously.), they won't budge for a while. I think this woman's importance is way overstated.
2006-03-12, 1:11 AM #22
Originally posted by Greenboy:
The ones who kill people think that. >.>
And the crusades thing just proves that humans are violent and stupid.


The ones who want to kill people over religion, kill people. The ones who don't, however, don't. Your point is?

Originally posted by axis:
I'm not Islamic, but I sure do wish they wouldn't kill people. From what my family hears about in the Middle East concerning Muslims, we have a very negative view of them.
I'm just being honest....


I'm sure the certain people would like it if others didn't fool with their internal affairs over natural resources or as barganing chips and the like. And I'm sure they have a very negative view of you. Because as we all know, what your family hears just has to be true. Yes, indeed, they do eat babies! And they live in huts of poop! My uncle's friend's brother has the scoop himself.

Just, you know, being honest.

What you hear about the middle east is indeed vastly distorted. Hell, "slipups" are made all the time: http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2006/01/17/cnn-ban.html

I remember a funny story my mother told me: back when she was in Iran, she saw an American film crew setup in possibly the worst area of Tehran to give a report on Iran. Basically like going to the worst part of DC to give a report about a congressional hearing. People do this to their political enemies all the time; hell, remember Boris Badinoff in Rocky and Bullwinkle. Hmm, what country was he supposed to be from? I'm sure if this were 30 years ago, you'd be saying: "From what my family hears about in the Soviet Union concerning Communists, we have a very negative view of them."
2006-03-12, 1:12 AM #23
I'll bet 50 bucks on 3 days.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2006-03-12, 1:14 AM #24
Originally posted by Freelancer:
I'll bet 50 bucks on 3 days.


I'm match that at two weeks.
2006-03-12, 2:04 AM #25
Ah, that's very brave. Reminds me of that Osama bin Laden's relative who's a model or something and doesn't give a crap about what other muslims say.

Best of luck avoiding nutheads though.
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2006-03-12, 2:15 AM #26
All the death threats just back up her argument. In what other situation would you get death threats for saying killing people is bad and we should all be nice to each other?
2006-03-12, 4:57 AM #27
Originally posted by Martyn:
All the death threats just back up her argument. In what other situation would you get death threats for saying killing people is bad and we should all be nice to each other?


Hmm... confronting violent people results in being threatened? You know, that's an amazing line of logic. It's like poking a lion, or maybe shouting racial profanity at 3 in the morning in the Bronx. Wow, that's like... truly a revelation.
2006-03-12, 6:53 AM #28
[QUOTE=Vincent Valentine]Arabic is such an ugly sounding language. :/[/QUOTE]

Listen to a Muslim prayer, and then say that.

It was...rather pretty to me.
the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot - LC Tusken
2006-03-12, 7:20 AM #29
i agree, Vinny you suck, arabic is a beautiful language, both verbally and in script.

The Middle East is still in the Dark Ages, but with some aspects of technology from the 21 st centuary, ie, weapons technology.

If Europe had nukes back in the Dark Ages, I reckon half the world would still be a smoking pit.

The Western view of Islam is warped, only because we hear of the extremists, and never the good Muslims. Some of us no doubt believe the Middle East is 90% extremist wackos.

No.

Try 0.9%-2.9%.

I have no love for those who jump on the "awww-poor-Jew-evil-Islam"Bandwagen, i see both Israel and Islam as at fault here.




Aaaaanyway.

Congrats to taht woman, she has balls, in a manner of speaking. :o

Dark skin and dark hair/eyes.... I wonder if she's hot. :banned:


[EDIT: she's 47, never mind :( ]
Code:
if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}
2006-03-12, 7:35 AM #30
Originally posted by Ruthven:
I wonder if she's hot. :banned:


[EDIT: she's 47, never mind :( ]


I already wondered if this was a Ruthven post after all =o
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2006-03-12, 9:59 AM #31
I did link a video, so you can see if she's hot. She's okay.

And the only arabic I've heard is from this woman and the mummy movies, so I'm probably jumping to conclusions.
2006-03-12, 11:43 AM #32
[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]Hmm... confronting violent people results in being threatened? You know, that's an amazing line of logic. It's like poking a lion, or maybe shouting racial profanity at 3 in the morning in the Bronx. Wow, that's like... truly a revelation.[/QUOTE]

i think you missed the subtlety there. Ne'mind.
2006-03-12, 12:33 PM #33
Originally posted by Avenger:
Islam as a whole is in a similar place of its development as the Catholic Church was during the Dark Ages.


Not exactly. The Muslims believe in their religion very strongly and that's what gives their movement power. The Catholic Church in the dark ages was led by a bunch of apathetic politicians that was using the church as a method to get power. They because so corrupt that no one really took them seriously after a while. None of the leaders really believe in God very strongly at all. They were kind of like apathetic agnostics.
2006-03-12, 12:50 PM #34
Here is an interesting article I ran across today about all of the technological advances that have come out of the middle east. It is so hard to believe that the same people who gave us decorative gardens, soap, cameras, algebra, and more are now so fanatical and archaic.

That woman is truly brave for vocalizing that message.

The language does have a sort of rythm to it.
"Flowers and a landscape were the only attractions here. And so, as there was no good reason for coming, nobody came."
2006-03-12, 2:58 PM #35
[QUOTE=Vincent Valentine]http://youtube.com/watch?v=ciOGS6r97oE

I found that.

Arabic is such an ugly sounding language. :/

This chick kicks ***, though.[/QUOTE]

Clearly you haven't heard Afrikaans before :p
2006-03-12, 2:58 PM #36
Originally posted by Recusant:
Clearly you haven't heard Afrikaans before :p


eew
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2006-03-13, 3:41 AM #37
The point is not whether or not Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or whatever have ever been bad religions or intolerant, the point is that Islam is doing all this NOW.

It doesn't matter whether or not 90% of Islam is peaceful and enlightened. It does matter that the remaining 10% is killing people.
Ban Jin!
Nobody really needs work when you have awesome. - xhuxus
2006-03-13, 7:17 AM #38
I don't know if any of you read Rolling Stone but a while back I read an article where they interviewed what we view as an insurgent. He was the same insurgent who fought against Russia when they were invading Afghanistan and the lowly Al Quada group made Osama their front man for taking numerous wounds and fighting til the Russian's eventually gave up thus making Osama popular among them. It goes on to give more reasoning as to why they hate America but about he is tired of being an insurgent for Muslims who just don't ****ing care anymore. It's a good read if you can find it.

As far as this lady goes it's sad that she gave up her own religion because sadly their 'if your not with us your against us' will only promote that whole righteous you speak blasphemy bs... A former muslim is awesome for reform and it's no doubt she is doing a good job and making good points about jews but thats not what muslims want to hear. They need a true uprising including clerics and common folk to start to see a change... It dosn't help that she is a woman and will be ridiculed even more for her ideas but at least its a start that someone said something...
2006-03-13, 7:37 AM #39
she isnt as heroic as me
2006-03-13, 12:02 PM #40
This woman is by far not the first to speak out openly about this.

Here in the Netherlands lives Ayaan Hirsi Ali. You may have heard of her because she is pretty famous. She was originally brought up as a muslim in Africa, but she turned away from Islam and now lives in the Netherlands.

Much the same as this woman, she speaks up openly about the wrongs of the Islam. She's become very famous in the past few years, and even went into politics. She is now a member of parliament for one of our country's major right wing political parties. They even nominated her for a Nobel Prize.

However, her approach is far from 'smart' if you ask me. Instead of going into reasonable debate, she goes around shocking and provoking muslims. She made a film titled 'Submission' (about mistreatment of women in Islam) together with the controversial Dutch director Theo van Gogh. Van Gogh then was killed in Amsterdam in November 2004 by a muslim extremist. (Which is really the first time ever something like that happened in our country) Hirsi Ali has always received countless deaththreats and was eventually forced to go into hiding. She doesn't go out in public without a host of security guards nowadays.

I really hope this Mrs. Sultan will do a better job of opening up the dialogue with the Islam.

In my opinion, Ayaan hirsi Ali (who is planning on 2 sequels to 'Submission') is only angering muslims. (Although I do understand her position, I have no sympathy for her approach).
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
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