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ForumsDiscussion Forum → (video) The end of an RPG-toting Iraqi insurgent...
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(video) The end of an RPG-toting Iraqi insurgent...
2004-06-19, 10:16 AM #1
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=1334268&enterthread=y

Language warning for the link..and the video is real. It's not incredibly graphic, but it's definitely not a cartoon..

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The Truth about Bowling for Columbine
woot!
2004-06-19, 10:32 AM #2
You got some crazies over at Anandtech.
2004-06-19, 10:34 AM #3
*sigh* war is sad. But I guess that's just how it goes... Sick though that there's people that take pleasure in watching that.

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Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin
http://www.writings-emag.net The next big thing since individually wrapped cheese slices (coming soon).
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Lassev: I guess there was something captivating in savagery, because I liked it.
2004-06-19, 10:40 AM #4
Is it the ogrish one? That one is cool, you see the man get clipped in the head, with a puff of bone fragments and brains and blood. Actually, it's not that cool, because the guy's dead, but it shows the horrors of war, and why we should neve engage in it.

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[insert various humourous anecdotes here]
2004-06-19, 10:41 AM #5
I only read the first page.....and I already hate those people. It's one thing to say "Good, another enemy was taken out." It's a totally different thing to say "Whoohoo! The little ******* got killed! Let's examine the video so we can rejoice in the light of him being killed!" Isn't that similiar what terrorists do when they kill one of our soldiers? You know, parading around fallen enemies and all.

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The sooner you realize I'm right the better off you will be.

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited June 19, 2004).]
Democracy: rule by the stupid
2004-06-19, 11:26 AM #6
Bah, there's a time when idealism has to be ignored.

We should start publicly beheading each Iraqi prisoner we have, say one per week.

You don't try to reason with an insane person. You put him in a straight jacket. 'Namean?
2004-06-19, 11:34 AM #7
I don't think thats the one you are thinking of, Insipid.

Wow :/, I was thinking it was gonna show a group being hit by a missile or shell. At least the guy went quickly. He probably didn't have enough time to realise what had happened to him before the second burst. And how many more people hate the coalition countries now that that guy has been killed? [http://forums.massassi.net/html/frown.gif]

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." -Isaac Asimov
"Flowers and a landscape were the only attractions here. And so, as there was no good reason for coming, nobody came."
2004-06-19, 12:02 PM #8
Hey, he had an RPG and was aiming at what are presumably American - even if not American, coalition - soldiers. I'm not sad that we got him before he got us.

Sucks someone died, yes. At least he wasn't an innocent.

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Frightening the very small and very old since 1952.
Frightening the very small and very old since 1952.
2004-06-19, 12:03 PM #9
Oh, right powertickle. Sink to their level and lose the moral high-ground. Encourage terrorists by showing that their methods are perfectly alright. That'll really get people to support the current operation. Oh wait. That's right. It won't.

CadetLee: Why did you post the video? Is this is the place to post it? It isn't particularly graphic or brutal: Just a combatant making himself a legitimate target and being quickly and efficiently eliminated. Aren't we supposed to keep these forums alright for kids to visit though?
If it breaks, you get to keep both pieces.
2004-06-19, 2:57 PM #10
I don't really see why I couldn't be put here as long as there is a warning about the content, but I'm not in charge.

[This message has been edited by Bobbert006 (edited June 19, 2004).]
"Flowers and a landscape were the only attractions here. And so, as there was no good reason for coming, nobody came."
2004-06-19, 4:06 PM #11
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">We should start publicly beheading each Iraqi prisoner we have, say one per week.
</font>
yes, we should start doing things that the terrorists do. You know, become animals like them. After all, they say if you can't beat them, join them.

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The sooner you realize I'm right the better off you will be.

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited June 19, 2004).]
Democracy: rule by the stupid
2004-06-20, 5:36 AM #12
Well, if we only did it to those that actually are guilty of IED and other terror attacks we would still be different from those who murder innocent civilians. We'll never do such things because it is one of the things that set us aside from the culture over there. The fact that we don't do such things is viewed as a sign of weakness by many there. Hopefully the compassion we are showing will eventually pay off.

With regards to the video, good stuff. I really don't have a problem with people being happy about his death. Afterall, he was getting ready to shoot *someone* with an RPG. Could have been a group of soldiers or civilians. Who knows?

I have a video taken from an Apache but it is about 80 megs so I don't really have anyway to share it. I don't think that I would, though, although I do know that it is already floating around. It shows the crews names. I also think it shows just a tad bit of overkill (sarcasm).

edit - I would like to add that I don't really take any pleasure in watching the man get killed. Although, I do feel good that he was killed before he had the opportunity to kill.

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Have you forgotten ...

[This message has been edited by Wookie06 (edited June 20, 2004).]
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-06-20, 5:43 AM #13
I love how you're saying "let's torture these terrorists, let's kill everyone" as if it would make a difference. What would it achieve?

These fighters are willing to die, they are willing to kill themselves, they are prepared to be tortured.
How can you fight against that?
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-06-20, 5:56 AM #14
Are you saying I've said those things? I don't recall that.

I do consider the possibility, though, that if we killed terrorists instead of imprisoning them that would be more effective. The terrorists already murder people but now they often hold hostages in exchange for the release of prisoners. Of course no prisoners will be released so then they cut off the hostages head, place it on the back of the decapitated body, and stick a knife in his eye.

How do we fight that?

We kill each and every one of them.

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Have you forgotten ...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-06-20, 5:57 AM #15
I do think there is a distinction between what I've just said and what you said I said.

I'm talking about killing terrorists that commit these acts. I'm not talking about torturing them or killing all prisoners.

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Have you forgotten ...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-06-20, 6:14 AM #16
I think it's worth pointing out that the guy in the video is not a terrorist. There's no moral distinction between him and the US soldiers he was trying to kill. He's just not on our side.

Wookie: How is using an IEDs a "terror attack" but using regular antipersonnel and antivehicle mines not? Also, what qualifications do you have to talk about the culture "over there"?
2004-06-20, 6:25 AM #17
Well, we don't really know who that guy was or who he was aiming that weapon at. It's distressing that you would assume there is no moral distinction between US soldiers and that man.

There is little distinction between using IEDs and mines. Especially when the targets are innocent civilians. Point?

Qualifications? Talking to Iraqis when I was in Mosul, Iraq.



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Have you forgotten ...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-06-20, 7:06 AM #18
I wasn't talking about you, actually, I hadn't seen your post when I posted.

The point is that killing them doesn't solve anything.
Yes, the fighters themselves may be in the minority but that doesn't mean their cause is unpopular. I'm not sure what the atmosphere is like in Mosul, but I'm sure if you've talked to Iraqis you'll be aware that there is little love for Americans (though I'm not sure how Iraqis would approach you, assuming you're American and look American. Also, do you speak Arabic?).

For every fighter that is killed, a dozen more rise. The Americans might be killing some individuals, damaging infrastructure, cutting off supplies, but they are doing nothing to damage their cause.

The 'war on terror' will not be won by the Americans and their allies.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-06-20, 7:59 AM #19
Wookie, he was aiming at the soldiers who shot him. He certainly wasn't aiming at a bus full of nursing mothers. He's just a combatant. What moral distinction can you draw between combatants on opposite sides of a war?

The US continues to use mines of all types, which kill and maim both military and civilian targets. Also, the last time I checked attacking supply convoys was a perfectly acceptable wartime activity.

Like Mort-Hog said. An obvious American soldier who (probably) doesn't speak Arabic is only able to talk to a limited section of Iraqis.
2004-06-20, 9:29 AM #20
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I do consider the possibility, though, that if we killed terrorists instead of imprisoning them that would be more effective.
</font>
Martyrs always stir up more rebellion than a prisoner does

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">We kill each and every one of them.
</font>
If they fight us, yes. But if they put there hands up and surrender, we don't put them in a guillotine like what powertickle wants to do.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">For every fighter that is killed, a dozen more rise. The Americans might be killing some individuals, damaging infrastructure, cutting off supplies, but they are doing nothing to damage their cause.
The 'war on terror' will not be won by the Americans and their allies.
</font>
Passion alone does not carry a movement

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The sooner you realize I'm right the better off you will be.
Democracy: rule by the stupid
2004-06-20, 10:30 AM #21
He got shot in the stomach at least twice. He sat down and thats when they nailed the headshot, which dropped him instantly.

Morons, don't let morons arm RPGs in the middle of the street without drawing enemy fire first.

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A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops.
On my desk I have a workstation...
A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops.
On my desk I have a workstation...
2004-06-20, 11:01 AM #22
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Passion alone does not carry a movement
</font>


It's the one element you can't crush.

Making a bomb is not difficult. GCSE chemistry has taught me how to make a fairly powerful explosion, good enough for five or six close-range fatalities. All the chemicals you need can be found in household items. I'll tell you how, if you want.
A large network of contacts is necessary for international co-ordination of large attacks, Al Queda style, but certainly not necessary for small soft targets. You only need three or four people to conspire together. It could be quite effective, if they use their bodies as weapons.
One or two suicide bombers inside a cafe, and one or two outside to take out the crowds fleeing from the first detonation. Simple, eh?

Attacking American troops may be somewhat harder, considering that they're expecting it, but as long as they can get close to them they can take them out, and the Americans aren't going to shield themselves from anyone and everyone all the time.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-06-20, 11:07 AM #23
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It's the one element you can't crush.
</font>
Go back in time and tell that to the Confederates, Native Americans, and those who fought at the Alamo. Pride and determination will keep a people going longer, but it won't win a war by itself.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You only need three or four people to conspire together. It could be quite effective, if they use their bodies as weapons.
One or two suicide bombers inside a cafe, and one or two outside to take out the crowds fleeing from the first detonation. Simple, eh?
</font>

Simple and ineffective. It didn't repel the Germans out of France during WWII and suicide bombings haven't stopped Israel.

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The sooner you realize I'm right the better off you will be.

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited June 20, 2004).]
Democracy: rule by the stupid
2004-06-20, 12:47 PM #24
Well it's certainly hindered them.
Imagine where Israel would be now without the suicide bombers. The whole issue would have had no media coverage, Israel would probably be occupying even more Palestinian land, and Israel would still be in Lebanon.
It is slow progress, but it is desperate progress.

As for Iraq, without the attacks everyone would pretty much have forgotton about it Afganistan-style, and there would be no pressure on the Americans to leave. The coalition forces have accelerated many different aspects due to the insurgent attacks and everything is going to be handed over a lot quicker because of them.

But this is not a war like any other.
This is not a war at all.
In any other conflict in history, it has been enemy verses enemy and the first one to kill their enemy wins.
This is not like that. This is much bigger, this is different, very different. The coalition forces are handling this as a conventional 'war' and that is why they are doomed to fail. The Americans are fighting harder after the invasion than they did before.

This enemy don't need guns, don't need weapons, because they themselves are the weapons. And this cause has an unlimited number of soldiers. This has to be tackled differently. They cannot simply carpet bomb a target. I don't know how they are to tackle this, I have no idea. How do you fight an enemy who will kill themselves anyway?

And don't tell me that American soldiers "are willing to die". Going into an area where you might possibly die is not the same as going to a target and blowing yourself up. Waking up in the morning knowing for certain that this is the day that you are to die, knowing that date weeks in advance. That is something quite different.
Would an American soldier blow himself up in the war on terror? Considering that Americans do everything possible to protect American soldiers, even if it costs the lives of Iraqi civilians, I think it's quite clear that they won't.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-06-20, 1:13 PM #25
There's a lot to respond to but I'll just respond to one thing Mort said that caught my eye. The coallition most certainly is not treating this as a conventional war and it most certainly isn't doomed to fail.

It has the potential to fail if we don't stay the course or if we allow the UN to corrupt the process. One thing is for sure. People have a desire to be free. Iraqis have now tasted freedom and they will never willing go back to the ways of old. That is why they are being targetted as much if not more than coallition forces.

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Have you forgotten ...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-06-20, 1:42 PM #26
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It has the potential to fail if we don't stay the course or if we allow the UN to corrupt the process. </font>


...then why is the American government asking for UN help?

Good grief. The United Nations is probably the only organization on earth that can fix things. I don't doubt that the US has the ability to put an army in Iraq and keep patrolling, getting shot at and killing the odd guy for two or five or ten years, but without the UN there isn't going to be any improvement.

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"Look at me! I'm Tracer! BLAHBLAHBLAH!"

-MBeggar
COUCHMAN IS BACK BABY
2004-06-20, 4:16 PM #27
UN help is a good thing. UN taking over is a bad thing. The US must continue to manage the situation as the UN is a generally corrupt organization. That's not necessarily the fault of the "UN". Just pretty much to be expected when you house various countries with varied motives and goals under one house.

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Have you forgotten ...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-06-20, 5:45 PM #28
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Well it's certainly hindered them.
Imagine where Israel would be now without the suicide bombers. The whole issue would have had no media coverage, Israel would probably be occupying even more Palestinian land, and Israel would still be in Lebanon.
It is slow progress, but it is desperate progress.
As for Iraq, without the attacks everyone would pretty much have forgotton about it Afganistan-style, and there would be no pressure on the Americans to leave. The coalition forces have accelerated many different aspects due to the insurgent attacks and everything is going to be handed over a lot quicker because of them.
But this is not a war like any other.
This is not a war at all.
In any other conflict in history, it has been enemy verses enemy and the first one to kill their enemy wins.
This is not like that. This is much bigger, this is different, very different. The coalition forces are handling this as a conventional 'war' and that is why they are doomed to fail. The Americans are fighting harder after the invasion than they did before.
This enemy don't need guns, don't need weapons, because they themselves are the weapons. And this cause has an unlimited number of soldiers. This has to be tackled differently. They cannot simply carpet bomb a target. I don't know how they are to tackle this, I have no idea. How do you fight an enemy who will kill themselves anyway?
And don't tell me that American soldiers "are willing to die". Going into an area where you might possibly die is not the same as going to a target and blowing yourself up. Waking up in the morning knowing for certain that this is the day that you are to die, knowing that date weeks in advance. That is something quite different.
Would an American soldier blow himself up in the war on terror? Considering that Americans do everything possible to protect American soldiers, even if it costs the lives of Iraqi civilians, I think it's quite clear that they won't.
</font>
Oh my god. *rubs eyes and looks again, then begins to tear up* I'm sorry, this is just one of the very few rationale posts you've made. While there is a tiny part I disagree with, I can actually understand where your coming from. Please, continue to do this in the future. You make me so proud. [http://forums.massassi.net/html/smile.gif]

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Good grief. The United Nations is probably the only organization on earth that can fix things. I don't doubt that the US has the ability to put an army in Iraq and keep patrolling, getting shot at and killing the odd guy for two or five or ten years, but without the UN there isn't going to be any improvement.
</font>
The only valuable thing the UN provides is a better sense of legitimacy.

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The sooner you realize I'm right the better off you will be.
Democracy: rule by the stupid
2004-06-20, 6:02 PM #29
...neither one of those posts refutes what I said.

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"Look at me! I'm Tracer! BLAHBLAHBLAH!"

-MBeggar
COUCHMAN IS BACK BABY
2004-06-20, 6:05 PM #30
I'm not even going to looks at it. The beheaded American was enough for me...

meh.

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"Bantha's are filthy animals.......I don't eat filthy animals."

"Laugh it up Fuzzball!"
-Han Solo
2004-06-20, 6:30 PM #31
No matter how many times i see this thread title, i envision a persian guy getting shot while playing Zelda.. i'm so serious.. [http://forums.massassi.net/html/redface.gif]

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"If all those usefull inventions that are lyable to abuse, should therefore be concealed, there is not any Art or Science, which might be lawfully profest."
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NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');
Also, I can kill you with my brain.
2004-06-20, 9:33 PM #32
I would feel much better about the UN taking things over. Then there is not one single country having total control over the operation. Yes, there probably is a lot more beaurocracy with the UN, but that's because there's a lot more control over what they can and cannot do. The various different countries can vote on and have a say in what happens in Iraq, and decisions will be made by a vote. Which makes sense. What goes on in Iraq will affect the rest of the world, and certainly the surrounding countries, so it is clear that they should have a say.
Britain is about the only country in Europe (save perhaps from Norway) that actually trusts America to 'do the right thing'.

The only real 'corruption' of the UN is that it doesn't have enough power. In fact, the only problem with the UN is the US. The US is violating lots of UN policies, but there is nothing the UN can do about it. This is the problem.
Perhaps once the EU grows in power, perhaps together with China, they can together put the US in check and together empower the UN.

The UN is not perfect, no, but it is much closer to it than a single-superpower-dictatorship.


Also, I'd be very interested for Wookie to tell us more about his experiences in Iraq. Were you a soldier there? Or there on business?
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-06-21, 4:32 AM #33
You know, the other day I saw an article about one of the recent car bombings over there. It killed several Iraqis and several international workers, brought there to help restore electricity in Iraq. What do the bystanders do? Loot the bodies and start burning American flags.

Okay, if that's how they want to play, here's my suggestion: pull EVERYONE out of Iraq(military and civilian), and just let them sit there and suffer. What? Your country is embroiled in a bloody civil war. Oh well. You've got no santitation or electricity? Geez, guess you should of thought of that before you started killing innocent civilians that were trying to help you out.
2004-06-21, 4:44 AM #34
They didn't ask to be invaded, you know.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-06-21, 6:12 AM #35
Some supersoakers filled with pigs blood might prove effective...
2004-06-21, 6:17 AM #36
Yeah, but they seemed pretty happy afterwards. They just don't want us over there, which I can understand. BUT, killing civilians that are trying to help rebuild your country is retarded and serves no purpose.
2004-06-21, 7:46 AM #37
Americans travelling to Iraq now are certainly not 'civilians'.

If nothing else, the attacks keep Iraq in the media and keep the pressure on the Americans to hand power to Iraqis and get out.
Attacks on Americans are understandable and expected.
The attacks that kill Iraqis are different. If they're working with the Americans as security forces I suppose it's understandable too, but Muslims should not kill other Muslims. The attacks make Iraqis afraid, and may even make them hate Americans (even though the attacks were not from Americans, they didn't happen before America invaded)

The sort of 'rebuilding' that Americans are planning may not be what the resistance fighters want, nor what Iraqis generally want. If all Americans pulled out now, Iraq would be in a mess, for quite a while, but they would pull out, they would rebuild themselves. They would be united in hatred for America, and rebuild Iraq as a radically anti-American state, much like revolutionary Iran. That is not what America wants.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-06-21, 8:34 AM #38
Look at the Slow-Motion video, It shows him getting hit once at where I presume is the tailbone, then a bullet bouncing up and hitting the head. He falls back just as the last tracer bullet hits him in the back.

Thats sort of like Medal of Honor. You can shoot a quy in the back and he will sit just like that guy did. Then you can shoot the Nazi b***** in the head and he will do the same as the guy does when he gets nailed.

This isnt a bit more gory than Medal of Honor. It just shows the killing of the guy! And I agree with some of these posts. Who knows what he was aiming at. It sure as heck was something that was supporting the US.

I hate war! I have seen the Nick Berg beheading video. It woke me up to what type of people we are dealing with. Thank the maker that we got him before he got one of ours!

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Jedi rocks rule the house...
YEAH YEAH YEAH

[This message has been edited by Jedi_Goon (edited June 21, 2004).]
Jedi rocks rule the house...
YEAH YEAH YEAH
2004-06-21, 10:37 AM #39
I think it's more than a little worrying that you're comparing this to a computer game.
And he wasn't a Nazi.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-06-21, 1:32 PM #40
I think his point was that it was no more, if not less, graphic than that game.

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Have you forgotten ...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

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