I saw this film in an advanced screening, and let me tell you: it is a lot more compelling and far better crafted than Bowling for Columbine, and it may just turn some heads.

Moore does go through quite a few loops and leads to a couple points that do hurt his argument, however his point is clear, and unlike Bowling for Columbine, it is undeniable.

His point: Our president lied to us, and that using the fear of September 11th as a tool, used the Iraqi war for his own personal agendas.

By the end of the movie, you know that this is unquestionably the truth. Very little, if anything at all, is made up. Michael Moore has made a movie that may actually change some people's minds, although I doubt it will meet the same comerical sucess.

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To myself I surrender to the one I'll never please.
But I still try to run on.
You know I still try to run on. But it's all or none.

Eddie Vedder

I want to see this film sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bad.

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"Ever since I was a boy, I have always kept your laws, now I want to follow you and join you in your noble cause. Jesus turned to him and said, 'Sell all you have give to the poor.' Rich young ruler hung his head, not to follow, walked instead." - Vanishing Lesson

Fahrenheit 9/11 received the Golden Palm award in Cannes.

I (likely to no avail) request a civilized discussion in place of flaming squabble for this thread.

I'm surprised that Bush hasnt banned the film, only allowing it to be screened in designated protest areas.

(If you dont know what I'm referring to... during Bush's trips to basically any US city where there are protesters [so, any city] it is illegal for the protesters to protest outside of designated protest zones. These zones are usually about 1-5 miles away from anywhere Bush might happen to be. You may argue that it's a security thing, but when they allow anyone with a pro-Bush sign up close and personal dont you think that an assassin would just adapt?)

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free mp3 ~Jump - Young America

new album Between the Dim and the Dark available now

Biggest understatement since Noah forecast 'slight chance of rain'.

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The Massassi-Map
There is no spoon.

Pah! Moore will do ANYTHING to advance the far left agenda. I have not seen it nor do I wish to see it (unless I feel like laughing a lot), but if it is like Bowling for Columbine, he will distort and twist things around to advance said "truth."

I wonder if he went on The O'Reilly Factor..

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Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.

I don't like Michael Moore, but I also don't really like Bill O'Reilly. fah.

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Saberopus: omfq musical genuis j00 >mozart
Thrawn42689: Mozart = n00b

yeah... it'll turn some heads of people who dont know that he's butchering speeches from people and such to make his anti-bush ideas work.
[edit]actually... now that i think about it. abbie hoffman comes to mind... the way that he said outrageous stuff to get media attention, and moore says outrageus stuff by bending the truth to fit his ideas and get media attention[/edit]

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There are two asses in Massassi... and I'm one of them.
The Matrix Unplugged|My Portfolio|My Levels

[This message has been edited by Cazor (edited June 22, 2004).]

Moore is an outright imbecile. With that said, I most likely won't be seeing this movie.

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Do you have stairs in your house?

Yeah, I am sure that what he says is alllllll lies.

Give credit where it's due. So far 90% of the reviews I read are people saying how true this is, and I think that a large group of 30-50 year olds have a bit more knowledge and wisdom then this group of 15-19 year olds at massassi.

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"Ever since I was a boy, I have always kept your laws, now I want to follow you and join you in your noble cause. Jesus turned to him and said, 'Sell all you have give to the poor.' Rich young ruler hung his head, not to follow, walked instead." - Vanishing Lesson

I'd pay to watch that.

I'm a fairly conservative person, a few things aside. I watch Moore's 'documentaries' and I've even read bits and pieces of his books. I also plan on seeing Fahrenheit 9/11. However, I disagree with his methods. He makes a point, sure, but he manipulates words to 'prove' his point yet at the same time he attacks exactly that: manipulation.

To clarify, I am not saying he is making stuff up. I am simply saying he tends to take ideas out of context. After watching bowling for columbine I actually did look up some of the things he presented as facts, and they were actual facts. Like the number of gun deaths around the world, for instance.

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"She turned me into a newt!"
Pause
"Well I got better..."

[This message has been edited by R_ivi_N (edited June 22, 2004).]

See:


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Do you have stairs in your house?

good point. I classify myself as a republican, but even I think the designated protest zone is utter bull****.

Even though I may not agree with what they're trying to say, I believe that anti-bush signs should be shown within the same proximity as pro-bush signs. Either that, or confine pro-bush signs to the designated protest zone as well.



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Old aunts used to come up to me at weddings, poking me in the ribs and cackling, telling me, "You're next." They stopped after I started doing the same thing to them at funerals.

The so called "movie" is overall only for those who are unwillingly to accept any good characteristic of President Bush (or any Republican president -- Moore makes a living on bashing all of them) and/or people who just want to embrace complete idiocy. I saw it and it's nothing more than a big piece of propaganda that was poorly made. Moore called on everything he knew and ignored even more to support his "views." What's worse is what he claims he knew is either lies or contradicts another one of his points.

And to support my claim: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/


[This message has been edited by Morfildor (edited June 22, 2004).]

These "Protest Zones" have been around for quite sometime, I do believe. I'll need to do some research to clarify that, but I'm at least 75% sure that this has been a standing thing since before Bush was elected.

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Prowling out of the tundra, swinging a jeweled meat hammer, cometh Outlaw Torn! And he gives a gutteral bellow:

"I'm seriously going to hump you until you scream like a banshee!"

Moore simply states what people want to hear. They don't like Bush, so if they've got some guy doing "documentaries" about how bad he is, they love it. Personally, I think Moore's a complete genius. He knows how to manipulate people and turn them to his point of view. Heaven forbid he ever run for a political office...

Well, that depends on how much they hate Bush. It's possible for them to hate him enough that they are blinded and miss the obvious propaganda in it. Having seen a screening myself, I think if anyone capable of logical thinking sees it, Moore's credibility will be damaged severely. I don't think any individual that uses deception and shady dealings at a magnitude as great as Moore does should be allowed to have such an influence.

I can handle riots and what not, as long as they have the designated zones, but I do not think things such as movies/documentaries that bash any of our presidents should be allowed.


[This message has been edited by Morfildor (edited June 22, 2004).]

(Note that this is the only part of your post that I will address, as I do not have an opinion on the rest of it.)

He has not only "bashed"* Republican presidents. He has "bashed" Clinton, for example, a great deal. This is just something I've noticed watching "TV Nation" from 1994 which a local TV station is currently broadcasting.

*: I'd prefer to say he has "questioned" them.

Thank you for that link.


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"She turned me into a newt!"
Pause
"Well I got better..."

Yeah, that whole 'freedom of speach' thing be damned! Anything negative being said about your president must be liberal propaganda.


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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

Moore has very clever tactics. He makes movies that SEEM like documentaries, but really they are meant for entertainment. This allows him to completely distort the truth to entertain the audience's Bush hating ideas.

Everyone should read that thing that about Bowling for Columbine that COMPLETELY discredits the movie and Michael Moore himself. It is in CadetLee's signature.

This guy is a complete imbecile who will do anything to skew the truth to entertain people and brainwash people into believing his bull****. There should be a warning at the start of all Michael Moore movies... "Warning! This documentary is meant for entertainment purposes only and the information contained may not be accurate."

Perhaps you should try reading my post or was the bold print not enough for you? I said ANY president.

[This message has been edited by Morfildor (edited June 22, 2004).]

When did I specify a president? Oh yeah, that's right - I didn't.

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

Sorry, I guess I missed it somewhere. I actually had never heard of Moore until that incident at the academy awards.

You implied it, obviously. Why would liberal propaganda paint a negative image of a liberal president?

[This message has been edited by Morfildor (edited June 22, 2004).]

hmmm. I still think Michael Moore is a manipulator... an imbecile? Perhaps. But on some counts, the same could be said of President Bush. Do I agree with this assessment, no, but you could use a similar logical process to make the point.

:/. Whatever. I say, let him do it. I'll never watch it probably, but that's just because I see it for what it is and am not really interested by it.

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Saberopus: omfq musical genuis j00 >mozart
Thrawn42689: Mozart = n00b

Without taking any sides here, I think it's nice how Michael Moore is automatically BS propaganda but anything the government says is the truth so help me God.



...this is a terrible idea. Guess what? People don't "bash" government for no reason. Use your head.

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"Look at me! I'm Tracer! BLAHBLAHBLAH!"

-MBeggar

I think I speak for everyone when I say WTF?![/i]

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There is no signature

Completely? That's an awfully huge exaggeration. That article proved several portions of the film to be heavily exaggerated or edited to slant things towards his point. That does not make them lies, and the entire film isn't all crap either.

Michael Moore seems to have many good points, but he skews it so much that some things may become untrue or too heavily exaggerated from the truth. It also bothers me that he doesn't even need to do that to prove his point.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

I haven't seen too much for this movie or anything, but I was reading the news and I came across this:
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/politics/8838660.htm
Its things like this, the editing that is, that make me annoyed at that man. Okay fine, he wants the members of Congress to get their children involved, but why edit it to make it seem like they don't care?
I understand that sometimes people really don't, but why make it seem like they don't and they really do?
bah, whatever. I'm not giving him any of my money.

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*

Moore uses a little bit of truth. Then he manipulates facts, uses portions of text (see the media-manufactured controversy over the 9-11 Report from last week) to create ideas instead of using them in context, and in some places out and out lies.

Moore lives in a fictitious world and will do anything to create a) controversy and b) attention. The man does not make documentaries. He makes Mockumentaries. Anyone willing to put in the time to research it *without* an agenda can see that.

For the record, there are multiple sites out there, far better than "the Truth about Bowling for Columbine" that show just how far Moore went in that film. He does more than exagerate. He misleads, misrepresents, and blatantly lies in several instances.

[This message has been edited by Charoziak (edited June 22, 2004).]

I agree, comrad Morfildor.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

That's exactly the way I feel about Michael Moore. Facts are facts, but he uses very sneaking methods to twist some of the facts to say what he wants and I can't respect him for that.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Wow, I actually agree with Tracer on something for once...

But the same could be applied to anything against a Conservitive President. If it's negative towards them, it must be left wing propaganda or conspiracy. Hilary once said the same thing about her husband....that it was all a right wing conspiracy. Fact was, there was no conspiracy, he was doing something wrong and he got caught. The same applies here...

The funny thing about it is that most people use "liberal" to refer to Democrates. Truth be known, both the Democrates and Republicans are Conservitives...it's just that Republicans are more conservitive then the Democrates. The Green party, however is a different story...

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Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited June 22, 2004).]

Who's stated that the government is never wrong? Or that they've never lied?

Who's said anything about a left-wing conspiracy?

Michael Moore is "BS propaganda" because he has a history of twisting facts or out-right fabricating them for his own purposes. One man, whereas the government is a collection of several people. Not all of them are people who are willing to lie their asses off to get what they want.

I'd be fine with Michael Moore if he hadn't abused his reception of the Oscar for "Best Documentary" for a soapbox to further project his political agenda. It's a movie-awards show, God damn it, not a ****ing political debate.

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

I haven't seen Fahrenheit 9/11. Does anyone know when it's coming to Britain?

I thought Bowling for Columbine raised some interesting points, but I didn't like how they did it. He could have made the same argument without it looking like blatant propaganda.
For example, when it was listing the statistics for gun deaths across countries, Britain - 20, Germany 15, Japan - 12, America - 5000 or something like that. It was total deaths not taking into account the population size. Now, even if it was per capita then the American statistic was much higher than any of the others he gave (I know, I worked it out), but of course there wasn't quite such a dramatic difference. That annoyed me.

Also much of it seemed like an 'emotional appeal'. Like when he takes the children into the shop to buy all the bullets, or something. Or when he puts down the picture of the girl at the NRA bloke's mansion. None of that really proves any argument. The 'emotional appeal' stuff is usually the realm of conservative types.

Also asking the NRA spokesman "what's wrong with america?" is not sensible. The guy sells guns and gives speeches, it's not surprising that he gave such as stupid answer as he did. Asking a historian or sociologist would make much more sense.

I did like the South Park-style cartoon. That was funny.
I don't think Moore's work should really be used as arguments on their own. Their usefulness lies in that it starts to make people question the government and question Bush, and might lead them on to reading other newspapers and doing some other research. It's funny and interesting and acts as a bridge to the more serious solid stuff. Blindly accepting Moore is the same as blindly accepting Bush.

I've read Stupid White Men. That too covered some interesting points (the racial struggle in America has interesting paralells with the class struggle in Britain) but I really don't like Moore's writing style.

I am not going to waste my time and money seeing this movie. Moore's reputation to me is reprehensible. If he would come clean about his tactics, that's fine. however, there will be a lot of mis-informed people that walk out after seeing this movie, and could jump to wrong conclusions. I'm not saying they all have to like Bush, I'm just saying that they won't know the real facts.

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"This thread is still alive? Someone should kill it."

Everyone should read the two (one, two) responses/rebuttals to criticisms of Bowling for Columbine. They are quite convincing.

I'd be interested in someone documenting one of Moore's apparently common "outright fabrications". I see a lot of people repeating the exact same line, but very little support.

Wolfy: The Oscars are a soapbox. Most stars squander the opportunity to address the public with tired cliches and endless ingratiation. A political screed is a welcome change.

What Mort-Hog said.

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited June 22, 2004).]

You know, I really don't know why people would want to see his movies. There is no insight whatsoever.

What he is saying, like how the Supreme Court fixed the 2000 election, everybody knows it COULD be plausible. We already know that there MIGHT be ties to Bin Laden's family and Bush.

How about he tell us something with insight, or some newthinking, rather than just telling us stuff we already know and just bashing Bush ignorantly while doing it?

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"His Will Was Set, And Only Death Would Break It"

"None knows what the new day shall bring him"