Out of curiosity, what's your definition of cult?

a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

^From dictionary.com, about what I consider to be a cult. I'm sorry, but the religion seems fake as ****, especially after reading the history of it.

Any more than any other religion ever? And if you consider every religion a cult, then aren't you just using the word to get people to react to the negative connotation the word has?

And another thing! How does you thinking the religion seems false make it a cult, when that definition says a cult is something widely believed to be false?

Uh...the guy found gold plates in his backyard which told him the bible was bull****, but could not produce proof as to why he needed to change the bible.

I'm sorry, but magic disappearing gold plates are just...yeah, bull****.

At least Christianity has SOME foundation of proof in its religious history.

The point of inspiration is always the part that has no evidence. Maybe there's written record of Buddha preaching, but how do we know he saw Mali and all that under the tree? Maybe we know there was a man called Mohammed, but how do we know he was actually visited by God while meditating in a cave? Maybe we have evidence of a man called Jesus from Nazareth, but how do we know he was the Son of God? At least be consistent.

And please respond to every relevant point in my posts.

Usually when I think of a cult, its a group of individuals who heavily reject mainstream ideas of society in order to band together under one collective idea.

I don't consider popular religion today as "cults." You can be a Christian and openly interact with society. You can be Jewish and be a supporting figure in the social world.

But this FLDS group took kids out of public schools and refused the community from being a part of the world around, (literally) isolating the members from society in order to make them devoted to the idea of their religion. I've seen members not even know who the president of the country they are in.

FLDS.

Sorry if that was unnecessarily pedantic.

1) True, the point of inspiration usually has no evidence, but in this case the point of inspiration is the entire basis of faith in the religion. With Christianity you have the existence of Jesus, and the historical lining up of facts with the Bible. I honestly don't know much about buddhism so I can't argue one way or another for or against it. There's nothing about Mormonism that has any ring of truth to it except the parts based on Christianity itself.

2) Sorry I missed it, but why does it matter what others think if the entire argument is about my interpretation about it as a cult? "Oh, I think it's a cult because everyone else does" <--that's hurr-worthy right there. Seriously, we're talking about my opinion--I think it's a false religion, I think it's BS, and I severely dislike it. Now, that doesn't mean I disrespect all LDS or anything, like I said, I have LDS friends, I just think it's a religion founded in bull****.

Alright, I'm not even going to argue with you about how a cult tends to be defined by general opinion.

The entire basis of the LDS church is not "some guy finding stuff in his back yard", the basis is the Christian church as it originally was, with an added belief in continuing revelation.

And, you completely failed to mention anything about the faith involved in Christianity. We have just as much historical information about Jesus as we do about Joseph Smith, yet you say one is genuine religion and one is bunk. Okay.

No, I put it in there "The only thing that isn't bull**** about the Mormon religion are the parts based in Christianity". Yeah, Joseph Smith existed, so what? Jesus existing proves thousands of years of beliefs and doctrines. Joseph Smith existing proves nothing. I also cited the fact that the bible lines up with a lot of historical events, but yet you made no comment on that.

I meant that you didn't seem to think that Christianity is just as based on faith as Mormonism is.

So Jesus existed. Remember that the point of Christianity is not that Jesus existed, but that he was the Son of God.
So the Bible lines up with other historical events. Does that prove that it's the Word of God?

Oh there's definitely a faith element. If you have the utmost amount of faith in either of them, me *****ing about semantics isn't going to change your opinion.

Same as if you have the utmost faith in a cultist religion. Hrmm....

So why is one a cult and one a religion? You have to know that the word 'cult' has negative connotations and that using it is going to piss people off.

Why am I even doing this?

Because I think mormonism is fake as **** and is a cult. That's why.

You forget, this is all my opinion, you act as if I said it was a fact.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]You forget, this is all my opinion, you act as if I said it was a fact.[/QUOTE]Fine. Nice cop out.

For what it's worth, here is a cult checklist. There are many similar versions to it all over the web. Just google "cult checklist" and you'll find them. I think the list does a pretty good job outlining the characteristics of a cult.

1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

I would say this applies to Mormonism. Mormons are encouraged to follow their prophet, even if there is a discrepancy between his counsel and other sources of doctrine, such as scriptures. In other words, it's pretty widely accepted among Mormons that the prophet overrides all other beliefs and his commands must be carried out above all else.

2. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

This certainly applies to Mormonism. Questioning, dissent, and doubt are all healthy and should be encouraged. If no one questioned what they were told, we'd never get any closer to the truth. And the Mormon church certainly punishes its dissenters, even if they're fairly harmless, by excommunicating them. The Mormon church also expends inordinate amounts of energy attempting to whitewash its history. Many members don't know some of the most basic tidbits of their own history as a result.

3. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

This applies to Mormonism. Members are encouraged to get up in front of the entire congregation and affirm that they believe, even if they don't. Leaders tell their followers that if they get up and say that they believe, that they will actually start believing. But somehow, this comes across as a good thing to members, even though it is blatant brainwashing. The Mormon church also hands most of its members a debilitating work routine, giving them tons of assignments, meetings to attend, and all manner of activities to perform that suck up hours and hours every week.

4. The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

This one greatly applies to Mormonism. Mormon leaders spend great amounts of time and energy dictating in sickening detail what kind of clothes are acceptable, how many piercings a girl may have and where they are acceptable, where to live, how many children to have, who to date and when, the manner in which one must be married, etc.

5. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

This definitely applies to Mormonism. Let's face it, Mormons think they are God's chosen people and that their leader is the prophet of God. They are encouraged to be unlike society because they think they're special.

6. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

Definitely. They are very good at pitting themselves against greater society. Sometimes, whole lessons are devoted to explaining that we should be different from society, and if they start to blend in with society and follow societal fads, they discipline them for it.

7. The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

This one may apply less so than other cults, because I'm sure Hinckley is accountable to authorities. However, one thing I've always been irritated about is that he is not accountable to any of his members.

8. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

I can honestly say this one does not apply to Mormons. That I've seen, anyway. Most of them try to be pretty genuinely ethical and upstanding.

9. The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

YES. They have guilt down to a science. Even if you're the purest teenager there ever was, they'd still find a way to guilt-trip you. They employ bully tactics, forcing young members to submit to interviews with local leaders where personal information is expected to be shared about sexual issues. The guilt is unbearable at times, and as a result, the suicide rate among Mormons is quite high (so is antidepressant use; Utah has twice the national rate).

10. Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

It does require many changes. No drinking, no smoking, you're expected to attend three hours of church each Sunday, and you're encouraged by subtlety to stop socializing with nonmembers.

11. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

Certainly. Mormons have roughly 50,000 missionaries working around the world at any given time. They are adament proselytizers.

12. The group is preoccupied with making money.

Yes. Each member is expected to pay 10% of his or her income to the church. Yet, the church doesn't even let them see how they spend it. They could be using it for anything.

13.‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

Yes. I've already explained this.

14.‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

Yes. I've already explained this as well.

15.‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

Yep. I've been there, done that.

14 out of 15. I'd consider it a cult.

It is pretty nice.

Freelancer, you just described like every Christian church.

Also, very few of the things you mentioned I witnessed growing up in the church. You're from Utah right? Maybe you Utah mormons are just crazier.

Yes, I'll agree with that one. This also applies to Catholicism.



Any Christian denomination will discourage dissent and doubt.



Comparing sharing your testimony to "mind-altering practices?" That's a bit of a stretch. Members are encouraged to share their beliefs and how the church has helped them. I fail to see how this is brainwashing. And as for the "debilitating work routine," you're not obligated to accept any calling.



Permission for dating? Job changes? Yes there are guidelines for what to wear, but that is only to promote modesty. There are also guidelines for dating, but they're intended to prevent teens from having sex before marriage. And I can't recall the church ever telling anyone where to live or how many children to have.



They're encouraged to be good examples to everyone, not because they're "special," but because they've been exposed to the truth and they should know how to act. I dont' think that's elitest.



Pitting themselves against society? Maybe fighting for their beliefs and values, but certainly not antisocial like you would expect a cult to be.



This doesn't apply at all.



Doesn't apply.



I have never witnessed this. Guilt and shame to control their members? No, I don't think so. Maybe in wacky dense mormon communities in Utah, but not that I've seen in Phoenix.



The only part of that that applies is changing activities. Smoking and drinking and sex before marriage are not allowed in Mormonism, and have to be stopped to become a member.



True.



The church happens to be one of the biggest service/charitable organizations in the world, if not the biggest. That's where the money goes (along with building more churches and temples, and helping with missionary work.)



Only as much time as they want to give.



Not really. It'd really be hard to only socialize with only mormon people. There were like... 6 in my high school class. And all of them had plenty of non-mormon friends.



Any believer of any religion will feel that way.


Not a cult.

Thank you so much, Vinny. I was worried I was going to have to do that.

True, and again, what Christian religion doesn't encourage bringing in new members? Islam also encourages converting people.

You've never been to an LDS temple, have you? The whole places oozes with "cult." Especially if you were lucky enough to attend before 1990 when they did away with the death oath.

Am I to understand that you're a former member? All I'm saying is that it seems like if you're going to call Mormonism a cult based on the reasons you've given so far, be consistent and call every Christian religion (and perhaps some others) a cult.

He is.

And he denied it was a cult in a previous thread, and yet is now going back on his denouncement. Fun

Indeed. Ò_ō

I was feeling strange that day.. disgregard