giving up

Something with a little more variance to it, and less repetition by using the same texture.

And to Wolfy, Jon`C, and all others who said he can't do everything: Jack of all trades, master of none.

Well..maybe not all trades...

I never said he can't do everything, I said he can't do anything. Jack of no trades, master of none, apprentice of none, remotely talented at none, doesn't even have a design document......

Ok...

Dreamer of all trades, acting on none.

Being a jack of all trades requires some moderate amount of skill and experience. Gold is launching into level design of a game when he's demonstrated he has no idea what features are going to go into his game - thus, it would stand to reason that the current design will not complement those features.

Furthermore, he has no market. He has no way of reaching an audience outside of his hometown. His MMORPG has yet to demonstrate any qualities that would even remotely interest any distributor - and that's assuming that the distributor doesn't take 90% of the profits. I HIGHLY doubt he has a server that can handle any kind of load necessary for beta testing, nor enough interested parties to do any proper beta testing.

I highly doubt he has any coders who can write any modelling or exporting/importing tools he will need. Does he have a sound engineer? Does he graphic artist? What kind of shaders are built into the engine he bought? Can his coders write shaders that he may need? Can they implement other kinds of engine support that may be required later on in development of the game? What kind of functions WILL he need?

Note: if he had bothered to draft a design document and assembled a dev team BEFORE he started throwing levels together, he would be able to answer every one of these questions.

Additional note: this isn't Gold-bashing, it's "convince Gold that his endeavor in this case is hopeless before it goes to **** right before his eyes" kind of talk.

You're really hung up on that hole Design Document thing, arn't you?

Wolfy, what's it to you if it "goes to **** right before his eyes"? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

'Too many folks up in too many peeps coleslaw!'

You know I was about to agree with you before you added the getto talk trash at the end... now I don't even know if I respect you enough to dignify your post with an answer other than this...

Design Documention does more than just plan your project it proves you did it... I can take a picture of a program and say "LOL GUYS I MADE THIS", but people can discredit me, but if I have the documention from the very start of my program I have more credibility to my words than if I just posted a random program that to everyones knowledge came out of thin air.

I really don't know which is more pathetic...

Design Documents force you to plot out what features you plan on including, the characters' motivations and idiosyncracies (if you have need for such), and a general design for your levels.

It facilitates the organization of a project - allows you to determine either what is possible in a specified span of time, or help project a schedule based upon what you want. It keeps you organized, and provides a central reference for the entire dev team.

I'm fully aware of what a design document is, but that's not my point. My point is that not everyone starts out writing out a design document (mostly because they don't feel like rewriting and revising it 20+ times). This is especially true with indy projects. Soooooo....meanwhile, while you're still working out the specifics for your final design draft, you can hammer out some artwork.

It's not an uncommon thing...really.

Projects without a design document are doomed to failure.

Agreed +100 any project no matter what it is, it must be planned.

No, it's not. But there is a difference between concept work and diving into the level design without any idea of what you want to do.

Anyone without a design document is doomed to fail life.

I wasn't going to play your game before, but if the hallways are going to have all those things then I'm totally buying your game.

If you seriously have to ask this then,

1.) You have never made a game before.
2.) You have no idea how to make a game at all.
3.) You have never worked on a large project before.
4.) You have never worked as part of a large team before.
5.) You are friend14, SF_GoldG_01, or a similar type of person.
6.) You have a physics degree from a diploma mill.
7.) High school students know more about everything than you do.

Every game project absolutely needs both a Design Document and a Technical Document.

The game designer is responsible for drafting and reviewing the Design Document. Ideally this process should be completed before any other work starts on the game. The Design Document describes every aspect of gameplay and offers a general sense of the story, characters and aesthetics. The Design Document is the general reference and descriptive document for the entire game. As a rule of thumb, you do not put anything in the game that is not in the Design Document. If you want to make a change you go back to the game designer and get him to add it to the design first. In a single statement: the Design Document is important because it describes how the user interacts with the game.

The Technical Document is the domain of the lead programmer. The Design Document describes what needs to be implemented and why, while the Technical Document describes what has been implemented and how. It includes specific information about the functionality of the game that doesn't need to be explored in the Design Document. The Technical Document describes the part of the game that the user doesn't directly interact with.

I reiterate: Every game needs a Design Document or it will fail. The only times you don't need a Design Document are where it has already been written for you - usually for games like Tetris, Pong, Breakout, Asteroids and Pac-Man where the game behavior is already well-defined. If you are working on a game and you think it doesn't need a Design Document, you are outright lying to yourself and you will fail.

All Gold threads need to be archived and backed up 666 times.

I know you're being serious, Jon, but I can't help laughing.

.

You still missed the point. Maybe, just maybe, he has the design in his head for now instead of making revision after revision. There's nothing wrong with diving head long into graphical work (especially 'Visual Look Development'). To a large degree, it is ussually necessary to even be able to finalize your Design Document because one of the aspects it should cover is what kind of graphical pipeline you're going to be using. After all, it's obvious by his first post that he hasn't even completed figuring his graphical pipeline out.

It's a personal preference, especially in indy projects. There is no 'right and wrong' way to do it. You can disagree with that, but that's your opinion.

Wow, more personal insults. Ironic coming from the person who 'gave up' on his own graphics engine project after rallying the community behind it.



I agree that it's a good idea to write those things out, especially as you get further into the process and start looking for outside help. However, graphics are universal. You can create levels, textures, models, etc. without even knowing what kind of format you're going to be ultamately using.



He's not running a corporate game, he's doing an indy project. There's a big difference. Most people can get a general idea of 'what' and 'how' before the get started and those things alone do not require 'documentation'. Sometimes you have to run test, like Visual Look Developments to figure out exactly what your graphical pipeline is going to be for you or your graphics artist. Even at the corporate level Design Documents are just 'General Idea' of what and how the game is going to be made. This is why teams are ussually versy small for almost a year before they begin actually creating the game. One of the roles of the Lead Graphics Artist is to come up with the best graphical pipeline and the report the process to the Lead Game Designer to write it up. Many of the assets that are created during this process still make it to the final game.



And most of that, especially initially, is very basic and general. Indy project developers have no need to do that...epecially when they're the only one on the team, initially. Even when they pick up a few members, they can describe the basics to them as "I want it to be similar to game X" and that is ussually sufficient in the beginning.



Did you copy and paste that?



And I'll reiterate, you were picking on Gold because he doesn't have a design document YET (so far as you know). I'll also reiterate that it is not always necessary espeically in indy projects to write one out right away. THAT is why I ask why you were so hung up on that point.

Bevvil, it would be like making a fictional film without any sort of screenplay or storyboarding in place, all you'll end up with is little bits of crap here and there with no full project completed: the amount of work involved in projects like that means you simply cannot keep it all in your mind and make a coheirant final product, let alone the problems with sharing the idea with others.

That (to rip off of Stafford) is like building movie sets before you have a script.



Not really, no. Even when your team is really small (six, in my case), you need that document so that everyone knows what the final decisions about characters, story, and game features were. This way, as you're designing the game, you don't have to worry about some essential feature or story twist being forgotten, because it's all documented (assuming that the Design Document was properly made). Even if you're all by yourself, you should make a Design Document for yourself so that you don't forget anything during development of your own project. It keeps you organized and provides a quick reference.



You're confusing "level design" with "concept sketches/art".



For the beginning, yes. After you're done shooting ideas out, you put them in the Design Document.



No, it's not important right away. But you really need to have the Design Document done before you develop any content for the game at all.

Like I said, difference of opinion, no right or wrong. We all agree that a successful project will have a Design Document at some point in the development process. It's obvious, wheather he knows it or not, that he's still in the early development phase of hammering out all the details that would eventually find it's way into a developement doc. Obviously, before he gets to the point of creating significant content, a design document needs to be established. If nothing else, so that everyone developing content will use the same filename conventions. But this is besides the point. My original question to Jon'C was in regards to him harping on Gold for 'not even having a design document', which implied that you must have a design document before you do anything else. I was pointing out that, initially, it's not really necessary. I was not disagreeing that he needed one at all...

In my case, I have a MMO design that I wrote out before doing anything. It's very primitive but very involved, so I felt it necessary to write it out first. It depends on the project. I like the design and hope I can work on the project at some point. In the meantime, I'm working on another MMO project. There is no Design Document. There's a general idea of the design that is understood. Right now, the focus is on gathering references/concept art and determing the graphics pipeline while working on a look development to entice more developers to the project. Doing an Indy project is much different then a corporate project. With all of the indy mmo's out there, experienced artist and coders arn't going to come to a project that doesn't show promise. In the corporate world, you can attract artist and coders with money.

Oh hey look, friend14 talks about more stuff he doesn't even have a vague understanding of. What will it be this time? More physics? Maybe religion?

Oh wait, it's just more game design crap. He does invent a few terms that are either totally new to me or used so incorrectly that I can only assume he read at least something about game programming but understood it about as well as he understands classical physics. I give his post 2 stars out of 10. (**--------)

Yes there is, because he's doing graphical work before he's doing any gameplay work. I don't care what you think, that's wrong and it's stupid.

Graphical pipeline? SIR, WE NEED TO DECOUPLE THE HEISENBERG COMPENSATORS OR THE WARP PLASMA WILL BURN THROUGH THE EPS CONDUITS! OH NO, WE'RE EXPERIENCING A HIGH BUILDUP OF THALARON PARTICLES BEHIND THIS CONSOLE, I THINK IT MIGHT EXPLODE!

Yes there is a wrong way to do it. Sure, a lot of 'Indy' projects don't use a design document. How many 'Indy' projects do you know of that have actually produced something? What's that? Zero? Because when you pitch a game to a publisher they ask to look at your completed design document? Hurr.

1.) Game engine not graphics engine.
2.) That's about infinity times the amount of game engine you've ever written.
3.) The physics might not be done, but at least I knew that F=ma.

No you can't. You design the levels for gameplay, not vice-versa. What you're suggesting is pretty much the dumbest thing you've ever said after F=mv.

No, he's doing a 'nothing' project. SF_GoldG_01 can't even decide what kind of game he's making, so by all accounts it isn't actually a project yet.
Secondly, his great plan is to support himself on the income from this game which will never ever happen, especially so long as he fails to conduct the project as though it were a commercial venture. Sooner or later he's going to need investments - from a publisher, or from venture capitalists or a small business loan - and there's absolutely no way he's going to get it with his current trend of :v:.
You have no idea what you're talking about.

Graphics pipeline
Visual Look Developments

No, actually at the corporate level a Design Document is a complete breakdown of every single gameplay, user interface, control, level and important story element. Corporations do not ever even authorize a game's preproduction unless that work has already been done. Usually Design Documents are so complete that the team refers to the document as the project's Bible.

Um. Yeah, that's called the preproduction team. They work on concept art, the script, and the design document.

Graphical pipeline

Yes they do need to do that, even when they're alone on the team. Games are a huge project and if you don't strictly define it then feature creep is inevitable and maintaining balance is impossible.

No they can't, and it isn't.

See, this little plan of yours is great for teams of 12-year-olds. Here is an example of a typical 'Indy' game development meeting:

<d3signd00d> I wantz 2 make teh gamez lol
<basicroolz> lol
<basicroolz> what is the game like
<d3signd00d> its like wow lol
<d3signd00d> only diffrenet
<basicroolz> okk i will rite a renderer
[12 minutes later the project fails]

Here is the same exchange featuring an adult 'Indy designer' following your helpful advice!:

<d3signd00d> I wantz 2 make teh gamez lol
<Competent Programmer> What? What are you saying?
<d3signd00d> lol
<d3signd00d> I want 2 make a gaem
<Competent Programmer> ...Alright. What kind of game is it?
<d3signd00d> its like wow lol
<d3signd00d> only diffrenet
<Competent Programmer> How is it different?
<d3signd00d> i dunno
<Competent Programmer> Who does know?
<d3signd00d> what
<Competent Programmer> Isn't it your job to know? You are the game designer, right?
<d3signd00d> ya i guess
<Competent Programmer> So what are you going to be doing on this game, exactly?
<d3signd00d> ...
<Competent Programmer> Am I supposed to write your design document for you too? Am I doing everything?
<Competent Programmer> Hey, there's an idea: How about you figure out what kind of game you want to make before you try to start making it, Einstein.
* d3signd00d has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[12 minutes later the project fails]

No.

You can say whatever absurdities you want, that doesn't make you right. You need a plan to make a large project. You need experience with smaller, simpler projects in order to complete a larger, more complicated one. These are universal truths in every single field of discipline. How is it possible that there are people on this forum so blithe to assume that universal truths don't apply to the game industry?

This is ****ing epic
hell it needs its own word

MACIC or GOLDTASTIC.
Maybe some Jon'orific?

imsoshort, you always side with public opinion in order to look 'LOL I'M 1337'.

What happened when you supported Gold in the last thread? Now, you changed sides.

Don't bother answering.

Bah ill answer cause im bored.
I just don't care about golds stuff anymore. I do think its epic though because. Well it is!

Why is everyone so hostile? Can't we all be friends?

Ignorance is a nigh impassible barrier to friendship.

I give this thread a 4 F=MV out of 5.

<3

And your opinion is the only one that matters, right Jon'C?

I'll give you an A for Arrogance.

You seem to be the only that disagrees

In this case, yes, because his opinion is shared by a multi-billion dollar industry that is on the virge of surpassing the Hollywood movie industry, if it hasn't already.

Have you ever thought I'm just playing around with the engine before I do anything truly serious?

EDIT: and I do have the exporters/importers now, thanks to a friend who linked me to the right plugins.

"You can say whatever absurdities you want, that doesn't make you right. You need a plan to make a large project. You need experience with smaller, simpler projects in order to complete a larger, more complicated one. These are universal truths in every single field of discipline. How is it possible that there are people on this forum so blithe to assume that universal truths don't apply to the game industry?"

Small projects, like the one I am showing, which is just to test out RC and its current features, contrasted to its Winter 2006 features.

If you want my honest opinion, I don't think you're going to make it.

Don't let my opinion stop you though.

If you're just playing around why are you showcasing? Why are you bothering us with these posts?

But an MMORPG isn't a small project. Tetris is a small project. Pac Man is a small project. Game for mobile devices are small projects.

MMORPGs are not, or else they would be SMORPGs.

Trying to get a team together... main objective.