I'm with Brian here, PW. You kind of shot yourself in the foot from the get-go. You really didn't tell what the software specs but you were quick to mention that you want 15%. To me (and everyone else), that was the turn off.

What you should have done was post the software specs outright. This program needs to be on windows, it needs to implement this, this, and that. That way, the programmer can say "yes this sounds interesting" or "no, this is a waste of time"

I wonder if your clients know how much of their time you're wasting? A compitent web designer could have had this entire situation figured out in no time. Not to mention, wouldn't jeapordize their project's completion by mentioning a silly finder's fee before any of the actual information is posted.

Oh, and I believe Brian should charge a 50% forum fee, since you're using his forums as a means to solicit programmers. He's entitled to some money, and I think 50% is a "fair" number.

Bwahahahaha

On second thought, where's my cut?

Seriously though, I really hate freelance work specifically because of situations like this. Typically, some client will hire a firm that does "design" only but advertises all phases of web development. Then they farm out the programming work to freelancers, where the whole project becomes a mess because:

A) web designers *suck* at gathering programming requirements
B) web designers *suck* at writing software specifications
C) web designers *suck* at estimating programmer's time
D) web designers *suck* at cost estimates for programming work

Yet, they still want to be in "control" and "leverage" their "assets" blah blah blah.

(okay so maybe that's not about all web designers, perhaps a single one)

It's easier for a customer to find a good designer than a good coder though, because of how design is inherantly more visual than coding.

And, also, because designers are a dime a dozen but a competent freelance programmer is actually worth something.

This is why most web app developers do their own design too, usually with great success. All you really need is a graphic artist to do composition work and images. A fulltime web designer is completely useless.

Sorry, but a decent designer is just as rare as a decent coder. The majority of webdesigners are crap, but the same can be said of coders. A good designer is hard to find, but you know it when you see it. A good coder might be just as rare but it's also harder to tell if they're any good at first glance.

Not really. Today, the highest growing job in America is the Graphic Designer. It's easy, you work with computers, and you don't have to have too broad of a knowledge of them to do your job. Designers in America really are a dime a dozen now, even good ones.

You can say the same about coders being dime a dozen, it just depends where you put your threshold for quality.

Also, I don't speak for America.

Damn I love your sig even more now Detty-meister.

:downs:

I agree for the most part. However, many people can't tell the difference between a "great" design and a "decent" one. I mean seriously, look at 95% of the sites on the web (they suck). Or, even if they *can* tell, they are willing to put up with less because it's a lot cheaper.

With coding, you generally can't take shortcuts in functionality (you can take shortcuts behind-the-scenes but most people will never notice until there is a heavy load or weird error condition). They expect a credit card processing form to work as advertised, whereas with design, most people don't give a damn if it's implemented using valid CSS + XHTML or a zillion nested tables in a page that doesn't validate.

Detty, do you do freelance design work? I'm the opposite of pagewizard, here, I'm a coding but not a designer. I actually don't really do freelance but I'm looking for someone to put a nice face on a website and web application (of course I will be happy to pay a fair price for a great design).

I completely and totally disagree, as far as the American front goes.

Where I live, every kid is becoming a graphic designer. And they're all really good at it. Why? Because it's easy to them. Our college is one of the major graphic design institutes in America, and it's in backwards-*** middle of nowhere kansas.

Graphics design =/= web design.

For instance: Pagewizard_YKS is a web designer, but he is not a graphic designer.
Everybody in this thread can do web design. Few in this thread can do graphics design.
Programmers can create good HTML and also write software.
Graphics designers can create good HTML and also good compositions, layouts and images.
Web designers can create good HTML and nothing else at all, ever.

Web designers are a dime a dozen because you can hire Billy, your 13-year-old neighbor, to do it. Nowadays web design is like hiring a kid to mow your lawn or shovel your driveway.

Graphics designers are not a dime a dozen because they are skilled at what they do. Reread this post if you are still confused about the issue.

What if you can create good compositions, layouts and images, and no HTML?

Then you can take the 12 minutes to learn HTML and become a web designer.

No, I got the issue. In fact, even past your demeaning tone where you tried to make me seem like an idiot who couldn't grasp the basis of the conversation, I understand what you're saying.

Graphic Design IS harder.

And they're still a dime a dozen.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]No, I got the issue. In fact, even past your demeaning tone where you tried to make me seem like an idiot who couldn't grasp the basis of the conversation, I understand what you're saying.[/QUOTE]Everything is about you

Hint: Read the post. Then read the post a second time. You were not the person I was insulting. If you were the person I was insulting, I would have quoted something you said, picked it apart and then implied that you had too many chromosomes. Notice how I didn't.

Edit: Until now.

...Forgive me for making the totally stupid mistake of thinking you're talking to me when your post is right after mine, you quote no one else, and you go on about a subject I was discussing.

God, how could I have missed something so OBVIOUSLY not intended for me. I'll try harder next time :downs:

yourself. Actually don't, because that smiley needs to go down in flames.

Now children...

Whoah, whoah, whoah.... leave out of this. He didn't do anything to you...

was just a poor soul in the wrong place at the wrong time. But now hes on Yoshis hitlist. Ohwell, down in flames he'll be going apparently. /_\

I would do it, but web programming is a waste of time and effort.

*goes back to coding thesis*

Woohoo! I'm a programmer with no html skills - but if 12 minutes is all it takes I'm learning!

Actually, that said I'd rather take my 12 minutes and spend them down the pub, but the sentiment's there.

:downs:

I'll do it.

Your client wouldn't happen to be the Law offices of David D Moriel would it?

You know, the site linked to from the clients page of your website. The same David D Moriel website that you claim to have built in straight html, but the source code indicates that the page was generated via ImageReady and code from WebFx. Incidentally, the first link on the links page of the Moriel site points to lasuperiorcourts.org. Concidence?

If you're going to claim on the Moriel website that you built and designed it, you really should remove all the evidence that shows otherwise, or you know. Learn how to do it yourself.

My webfu is strong.

I'd hit it!

Web Design isn't about html, I agree that any kid can learn html in a matter of minutes (whether they can actually be bothered is another matter).

Web Design isn't about graphics either. Being excellent at print design and branding won't automatically make you an excellent web designer, there are other factors too.

- Designing for a medium that is completely flexible, where do you draw the line between designer control and user control? Print doesn't have this problem, want to make the text larger in a magazine? Tough luck.
- Making the design accessible, accessibility isn't just about doing good semantic markup (incidentally, the number of "web designers" who can actually do this properly is tiny compared to the total number of "web designers"), it's about appropriate use of colour when you take into account different colour profiles that might be in use, use of flexible/inflexible grids and other screen resolution considerations, what fonts to use (web typography is rather difficult since it's difficult to know what fonts be available on each machine, you effectively have to make your design work well with all the plausible font availabilities). Effective navigation, logical markup structure, use of accesskeys, accessible use of plug-in technology such as Flash, degradable use of javascript.

Web Design is a sub-discipline of Design, just like Print Design. It's perfectly acceptable to specialise because there's a lot more depth to these fields than most of you seem to be willing to realise.

Web Design as Jon'C sees it is what gives real Web Design a bad reputation. I'd have hoped that someone who claims to be as well-informed as he does would know better.

Except I'm right: 95% of the "web designers" out there are untalented hacks with copies of Dreamweaver or Frontpage. I don't deny that there are real, skilled web designers out there, but they are hopelessly outnumbered. You could say the same thing about amateur game programmers too. Hell, I say it almost every day.

But that's exactly my point, there are still too many rubbish web designers out there, but that doesn't mean that those who actually do it properly are worthless (which was your original sentiment that I objected to).

What is that even supposed to mean, Thawn[numbarz]?