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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Do you think this qualifies as "police brutality"?
12
Do you think this qualifies as "police brutality"?
2006-11-22, 2:01 PM #1
http://officer.com/article/article.jsp?id=33664&siteSection=1

Quote:
92-Year-Old Woman Dies in Shootout with Atlanta Police

Updated: November 22nd, 2006 12:28 PM EDT

The Associated Press

ATLANTA -- The niece of a 92-year-old woman shot to death by police said her aunt likely had reason to shoot three narcotics investigators as they stormed her house.

Police insisted the officers did everything right before entering the home Tuesday evening, despite suggestions from the woman's neighbors and relatives that it was a case of mistaken identity.

The woman, Kathryn Johnston, was the only resident in the house at the time and had lived there for about 17 years, Assistant Chief Alan Dreher said. The officers had a legal warrant, "knocked and announced" before they forced open the door and were justified in shooting once fired upon, he said.

Sarah Dozier, the niece, told WAGA-TV that there were never drugs at the house.

"My aunt was in good health. I'm sure she panicked when they kicked that door down," Dozier said. "There was no reason they had to go in there and shoot her down like a dog."

As the plainclothes Atlanta police officers approached the house about 7 p.m., a woman inside started shooting, striking each of them, said Officer Joe Cobb, a police spokesman.

One was hit in the arm, another in a thigh and the third in a shoulder.
The officers were taken to a hospital for treatment, and all three were conscious and alert, police said.

Rev. Markel Hutchins, a civil rights leader, said Johnston's family deserves an apology.

"Of the police brutality cases we've had, this is the most egregious because of the woman's age," Hutchins said.

Hutchins said he would try to meet with Atlanta Police Chief Richard Pennington and would also meet with lawyers.

News stories provided by third parties are not edited by "Site Publication" staff. For suggestions and comments, please click the Contact link at the bottom of this page.

View original AP article: news://newsclip.ap.org/D8LI6EL81@news.ap.org For this link to work, your newsgroup reader application must have an account configured to access newsclip.ap.org.


Three officers were shot and returned fire -- and someone calls it police brutality? Am I missing something here?
woot!
2006-11-22, 2:09 PM #2
Those officers are going to have one hell of a time explaining those particular wounds to their children.

"Yeah, this one I got in a shootout with a suspected 92-year old Grandmother drug user."
2006-11-22, 2:24 PM #3
It's amazing how good their intel was.
omnia mea mecum porto
2006-11-22, 2:39 PM #4
And once again the police are blamed for doing their job, while the real culprits, the people who sent them out in the first place get off with out mention.

The police had no way of knowing that it wasn't some druggie like they'd been told.
2006-11-22, 2:41 PM #5
I sense some racial tension inadvertently coming up with that story.
This is retarded, and I mean drooling at the mouth
2006-11-22, 2:51 PM #6
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
And once again the police are blamed for doing their job, while the real culprits, the people who sent them out in the first place get off with out mention.

The police had no way of knowing that it wasn't some druggie like they'd been told.


And you know that the went to the wrong house? No, you don't. She may not have been the druggie living at the house, but don't assume there was no illegal activity occuring at the house.
Pissed Off?
2006-11-22, 2:57 PM #7
I fail to see where it says they didn't uncover anything.
Oh other than the niece claiming there have never been any drugs in the house, which we always know relatives are the best source of information (ie.. "My boy would never shoot up a school or murder somebody" Well guess what, HE DID!)
2006-11-22, 3:15 PM #8
Wait, so she shot them while they were approaching the house and they think she deserves an apology?
DO NOT WANT.
2006-11-22, 3:31 PM #9
she shot them after they knocked, identified themselves, and entered the home
2006-11-22, 4:39 PM #10
OLD NEWS LAWL :psyduck:
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2006-11-22, 4:54 PM #11
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:


...

Quote:
Updated: November 22nd, 2006 12:28 PM EDT


Different incident, bucko.
woot!
2006-11-22, 5:04 PM #12
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:



You're not funny or clever.
Pissed Off?
2006-11-22, 5:36 PM #13
Originally posted by JLee:
...

Different incident, bucko.


Duh.

All I meant to be saying was, that I feel like it's going to be the exact same sort of discussion we had recently, because it's another one of those cases.

Originally posted by Avenger:
You're not funny or clever.


It wasn't intended to be either of those. It was just another way of saying 'not again', in a sarcastic way, but I guess you couldn't tell.
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2006-11-22, 5:48 PM #14
It wasnt really that sarcastic, and im pretty sure the inclusion of :psyduck: made it appear like an attempt at humor.
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2006-11-22, 8:01 PM #15
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:
Duh.

All I meant to be saying was, that I feel like it's going to be the exact same sort of discussion we had recently, because it's another one of those cases.



It wasn't intended to be either of those. It was just another way of saying 'not again', in a sarcastic way, but I guess you couldn't tell.



It's a different case altogether. I posted it because I was very surprised that someone would mention 'police brutality' after three officers were shot.

Of course, you're welcome to make your own comments, however irrelevant they may be. ;)

:P
woot!
2006-11-22, 8:05 PM #16
Did the police know it was an old lady?
2006-11-22, 8:10 PM #17
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Did the police know it was an old lady?


I do not believe so.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061122/ap_on_re_us/elderly_shootout

Drugs were found on the location.
woot!
2006-11-22, 8:12 PM #18
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Did the police know it was an old lady?


When someone shoots at you, you don't stop to ponder how old the person is. You'll end up dead if you do.
Pissed Off?
2006-11-22, 8:13 PM #19
Originally posted by Avenger:
When someone shoots at you, you don't stop to ponder how old the person is. You'll end up dead if you do.


Very true.

One officer was hit three times...face, leg and vest. He's lucky to still be here.
woot!
2006-11-22, 8:46 PM #20
Originally posted by JLee:
Three officers were shot and returned fire -- and someone calls it police brutality? Am I missing something here?


Perhaps Rev. Hutchins objects to the use of no-knock paramilitary raids to serve drug warrants.

The Atlanta Police have since admitted that they did not knock, though they maintain that they did identify themselves.
2006-11-22, 8:49 PM #21
Originally posted by JLee:
Very true.

One officer was hit three times...face, leg and vest. He's lucky to still be here.


I believe it was three officers were hit once each. I guess in a neighborhood like that, as they said, anybody could identify themselves as police and then break down your door.
<Lyme> I got Fight Club for 6.98 at walmart.
<Black_Bishop> I am Jack's low price guarantee
2006-11-22, 8:51 PM #22
Originally posted by JudgeDredd:
I believe it was three officers were hit once each. I guess in a neighborhood like that, as they said, anybody could identify themselves as police and then break down your door.


Read the second link. One officer was hit three times, and the other two were hit once.
woot!
2006-11-22, 8:53 PM #23
Originally posted by Argath:
Perhaps Rev. Hutchins objects to the use of no-knock paramilitary raids to serve drug warrants.

The Atlanta Police have since admitted that they did not knock, though they maintain that they did identify themselves.


Whether Rev. Hutchins objects or not is irrelevant. His claim of 'police brutality' is a far cry from the truth. However, I am not surprised in the least.
woot!
2006-11-22, 9:55 PM #24
Originally posted by JLee:
Whether Rev. Hutchins objects or not is irrelevant. His claim of 'police brutality' is a far cry from the truth. However, I am not surprised in the least.


...irrelevant to what?

If he thinks that no-knock paramilitary raids are unacceptable, then the use of such a raid is police brutality by definition. You're certainly free to disagree, but I don't see how you can claim that there's some universal truth about what constitutes an acceptable use of force.
2006-11-22, 9:57 PM #25
Damn you Americans are nuts.
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2006-11-22, 10:13 PM #26
Originally posted by Argath:
...irrelevant to what?

If he thinks that no-knock paramilitary raids are unacceptable, then the use of such a raid is police brutality by definition. You're certainly free to disagree, but I don't see how you can claim that there's some universal truth about what constitutes an acceptable use of force.


Quote:
The officers had a legal warrant, "knocked and announced" before they forced open the door and were justified in shooting once fired upon, he said.

Perhaps reading comprehension is not your specialty.

Applying deadly force when fired upon is more than acceptable -- and yes, there is a universal truth about what constitutes an acceptable use of force. When there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm, deadly force is authorized. When such a situation arises, hit fast and hard.
woot!
2006-11-22, 10:25 PM #27
Originally posted by JLee:
Perhaps reading comprehension is not your specialty.


That's really not necessary. Nor accurate:

Quote:
The Atlanta Police have since admitted that they did not knock, though they maintain that they did identify themselves.
2006-11-22, 10:40 PM #28
Originally posted by Argath:
That's really not necessary. Nor accurate:


Fair enough, however entry was announced, and as such, it was not a typical 'no-knock' warrant. This was posted from an Atlanta officer on officer.com:

Quote:
It was a "no-knock" warrent, however they did knock and annouce as they took off the burglar screen door, and as they were forcing entry to the front door, they took fire. All waring their badges on the outside, and in raid gear, with their vest's showing "POLICE" in big yellow lettering, with uniformed officers in the front and rear of the house, and MARKED patrol cars in the front of the house. The female unloaded all 6 rounds from her revolver striking 1 officer in the chest, leg and grazing his face, another officer in the arm and the 3rd in the leg.

Take it as you will.

So we agree on the proper use of deadly force?
woot!
2006-11-22, 10:42 PM #29
LOL!!!! Someone is trying to argue with Argath? LOL!!! This is rich!! I have some advice for you now JLee. Sit down, boy. Now. Or you'll get served even worse. Argath is *never* ever wrong. Ever.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2006-11-22, 10:44 PM #30
Originally posted by Freelancer:
LOL!!!! Someone is trying to argue with Argath? LOL!!! This is rich!! I have some advice for you now JLee. Sit down, boy. Now. Or you'll get served even worse.


I do not believe I have yet "been served." Perhaps my time will come.
woot!
2006-11-23, 12:12 AM #31
Originally posted by Freelancer:
LOL!!!! Someone is trying to argue with Argath? LOL!!! This is rich!! I have some advice for you now JLee. Sit down, boy. Now. Or you'll get served even worse. Argath is *never* ever wrong. Ever.


Daaaaaaaaaaaamn, TOLDDD.
2006-11-23, 2:14 AM #32
Unless the 92 years old grandmother really was a much better combatant than the cops (making them lousy cops, not an awesome grandmother), then it's obvious the cops did something wrong tactically to get three men incapacitated. If it had been a drug cave (like they suspected or they wouldn't have raided the house in the first place) with a few armed and dangerous young men, I suppose it's safe to say most of the officers would have left the scene in body bags, if single grandmother was that devastating.

No matter how you look at it, the police acted foolishly. I can say this right here from the other side of the globe with utmost certainty.
Frozen in the past by ICARUS
2006-11-23, 7:06 AM #33
Originally posted by lassev:
Unless the 92 years old grandmother really was a much better combatant than the cops (making them lousy cops, not an awesome grandmother), then it's obvious the cops did something wrong tactically to get three men incapacitated. If it had been a drug cave (like they suspected or they wouldn't have raided the house in the first place) with a few armed and dangerous young men, I suppose it's safe to say most of the officers would have left the scene in body bags, if single grandmother was that devastating.

No matter how you look at it, the police acted foolishly. I can say this right here from the other side of the globe with utmost certainty.


They were shot as they entered the building. A firearm does not care who's pulling the trigger. It fires where it's pointed. Ever handle a firearm before? It's not too difficult to hit something when you're waiting for it to walk through a doorway.

The officers were not incapacitated. Injured, yes.

You can be as certain as you like, however I cannot help but wonder how much training you have had on how to deal with a situation such as this. What makes you an expert? If they used a SWAT unit, I can guarantee that most people here would be clamoring 'excessive force! excessive force! It was a grandmother!' The truth of the matter? It doesn't matter how old someone is..12yo, 30yo, or 90yo. They can kill you just as dead as anybody else can..

Funny how nobody can stay on the original topic, and people keep trying to say what the police did wrong.. ;)
woot!
2006-11-23, 7:10 AM #34
Prehaps by 'police brutality', they mean brutaslity towards the police? :psyduck:
2006-11-23, 7:15 AM #35
Originally posted by Verticae:
Prehaps by 'police brutality', they mean brutaslity towards the police? :psyduck:


If it wasn't a civil rights leader demanding an apology from the police, you might be right! :P
woot!
2006-11-23, 7:18 AM #36
Damn you Americans are nuts.


...


(Damn it appears I already posted that. But it deserves to be repeated!)
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2006-11-23, 7:26 AM #37
Originally posted by FastGamerr:
Damn you Americans are nuts.


...


(Damn it appears I already posted that. But it deserves to be repeated!)



Ooh, an echo!

:psyduck:
woot!
2006-11-23, 8:05 AM #38
Originally posted by Argath:
If he thinks that no-knock paramilitary raids are unacceptable, then the use of such a raid is police brutality by definition. You're certainly free to disagree, but I don't see how you can claim that there's some universal truth about what constitutes an acceptable use of force.


So somehow Rev. Hutchins gets to define whats acceptable and whats not? Sorry, but he has no say in that. He's free to take it to court if he wishes, but even then it's the judge that decides.

Other than that, I don't see how you can consider breaking down a door police brutality. Nothing excessive was going to happen to the woman. She fired at them. She's the one that ****ed up. :P
2006-11-23, 9:07 AM #39
Originally posted by JLee:
They were shot as they entered the building. A firearm does not care who's pulling the trigger. It fires where it's pointed. Ever handle a firearm before?

Yeah. That's why the army ranks are filled with 90 years old people... No, wait. They aren't.

Originally posted by JLee:
You can be as certain as you like, however I cannot help but wonder how much training you have had on how to deal with a situation such as this. What makes you an expert?

I have no swat or house storming training. Why, I have very little urban warfare expertice in general. But regardless of what I've, here on the other side of the planet, you would think those officers sent to raid a house would have that training. Unless they were just extremely unlucky (like cursed by some minion of Cthulhu), it's worrisome a grandmother gave them that much trouble, when they were ready and expecting trouble; they were raiding a drug house for all they knew, after all.

And yeah. I have handled firearms in the army. Mainly assault rifles and heavy machine guns.

Just to make one point clear: I'm not claiming the officers were wrong when they defended themselves. Based on what I read here, my opinion is the grandmother was quite trigger happy or a bit senile.
Frozen in the past by ICARUS
2006-11-23, 10:55 AM #40
So, because a cop gets shot through a door, they weren't prepared. That's a crappy step in logic. Getting shot at when executing that kind of warrant is part of the business. Not being prepared wouold have been sending a couple of dectectives to serve the warrant with no backup.
Pissed Off?
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