It doesn't matter that this was independently confirmed by my Indian-American friend, whose mother explicitly said that the Indian educational system stresses memorization over application?

I speak from experience. It's a cultural divide that can easily be observed simply by interacting with native Indian people in an American educational institute or work setting. When I was at Purdue there were many times where I would be partnered with Indian students. These guys would ACE tests, but for projects they were next to worthless because creative thinking would often be required. Memorization is a strong suit, don't get me wrong. It's why as a culture, Indian people are adept at IT work. Because typically it's a repetitive process and is easily memorized.

Biologically no, but unless you're like a military family, you pretty much inherit the customs and practices of the nation in which you grew up. In a nation such as the United States, it can even be boiled down to state or even city (e.g. as a loyal San Diegan I grew up to despise any sports teams from Los Angeles :p). So it can be argued that you inherit your nationality. The only real difference is that you can 100% reject your nationality later on in life. You can't really reject your skin color.

Why didn't you mention that in your first post?

True, nationality is seldom dynamic. But, you have much more choice about sharing the traits of the people of your country than you do about sharing the traits of your particular ethnic group.

sure they can. its called emigrating. some places its more difficult than others. but it happens every day.

and free, if you had read the entire thread, there were 2-3 others who posted similar experiences with students and co-workers raised in those schools and culture. its not like its an isolated incident observed by one person.

[edit] this post in response to frees post quoted in bobberts post above mine.

No it doesn't. I've heard countless Americans say the same thing about American schools and yet they, like you, consider themselves somewhat good at creative problem-solving.

It may be to you.

I find it quite interesting that the people who actually read Wolfy's post with a critical eye were able to deduce that the issue at hand had nothing to do with the person's race. Goes right back to my original point.

Yeah, I agree. My uncle's main point, and well really his biggest argument, is Africa in how he hates black people. It's kinda laughable, but whatever. That was MY point.


Read what I just said plz kthx.

But either way, I still find your generalizations laughable in that they do not distinguish you from a racist--after all, stereotyping and generalizations are the entire basis of racism, what you just exhibited strongly--and they still make you seem like an *******. Prefacing "I HATE ******S" with "This in no way shape or form is meant as racist" still ends up with the same result.

Avenger: I'm not saying any of this has anything to do with race. I'm just trying to figure out how you can think there's a problem at all. It's ridiculous.

Ok people. You really really need to think things through. Generalizing and stereotyping a group of people does not always equate to racism. Saying that "all Muslims should be made into glass" is not a racist remark. It is slandering a religion. Muslims make up all kinds of skin colors.

People call out racism far to much and it does no one any good. In this nation, a racism charge against someone is a very big deal. People have had lives ruined because of that one charge. Perhaps they did say some stupid **** and probably deserve whatever grief they get. But you cannot just willy-nilly charge something that's offensive towards a group as a racist remark just because their skin is darker than yours.

Here's another example. Anyone who is in favor of any kind of border protection is labled a racist? Why? People from Mexico most often have skin darker than Americans. But it is not racist in any way shape or form to want border security. It's just that activists have so ingrained into our psyche that anything that is not favorable to a group of individuals who are not white as being racist.

This is true, but unfortunately a large fraction of the border-protection hardliners ARE motivated along racial lines. It's not really fair to the ones who aren't, and it's not fair to lump everyone together obviously, but it can go either way oftentimes

Plus, it seems like the majority of Americans are in favor of heightened border security so who are you so afraid of? Berkeley students? MoveOn.org? Nothing they say matters anyway

Because it didn't occur to me that it was worth including it in my rant. However, I included it in a post that followed it shortly thereafter.



So, the fact that I've said that race is not a factor in this at all still makes it racism? A person of Indian blood has just as great of a capacity to perform as well as I do. A person who is a product of the Indian culture or educational system (I don't know which is the source of the problem) seems to have been hindered with a reduced capacity for creative and critical thought because the system stresses memorization over application. Thus, in fields where great amounts of book knowledge (let's follow the stereotype here and say "medicine"), people who are products of the Indian educational system are ideal for such fields, because such fields require the retention of vast amounts of knowledge. In fields such as engineering, knowing the information isn't half as important as knowing where to find the information and how to apply it.

Regardless, you seem pretty bent on misinterpreting what I'm saying - I say, "It's a problem with people from India", and you hear, "People who are of Indian blood are idiots".

I do enjoy the fact that you made a point to say you avoid my threads, yet you keep replying.



Were it just my experiences, I would agree; however, given that multiple people from the same or similar fields of my own have their own quite similar complaints about people from India, one would think that perhaps I'm not the raving racist that people like Dj-Yoshi seem to think I am.

For those of you who can't seem to grasp this (and I don't mean to direct this to Freelancer - he seems to understand this point):
I have never supported, nor proposed, the idea that people of the Indian race are in any way inferior. Repeatedly, I have said that people of Indian blood raised in an environment other than India have proven themselves to be capable individuals. Please find proof where I said it was a flaw in the Indian race, and I will gladly retract this statement. Otherwise, find a different, worthwhile point to argue or stop posting.

For what it's worth, I've experienced the same kind of thing with people from India in Computer Science. $.02
Not clicking this thread ever again.

I'm not a racist, that's what's so insane about this!

Look at Michael Jackson.

It doesn't really matter what you're claiming in your post. See, if you're making a topic called 'I hate India' and your final remark is , it just comes off as a bit racist. That shouldn't be too hard too understand either.

So be a reasonable guy and unban Rob.

I think you missed what Wolfy just said a few replies ago. He is referring to India and Indians not as a race, but as a nationality. He and several other people have stated that they have witnessed problems with those from India when it comes to creative thinking. They also stated that this is obviously a problem with the education system in India.

Now, I have to agree with Wolfy on this. If you cannot do the job, then you should not have the job. This goes for anyone. It's very frustrating for those trying to do their jobs if they are getting dragged down by someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

Yeah and he definitely could have phrased it better to avoid people thinking it was a racist rant.

His bad, if he was an adult he could admit that. Although I often want to see Rob banned it is annoying that he was banned for this thread.

I agree about his intent not being real clear in the first post, but it has since been pointed out.

Yeah it's been pointed out, but he continues to insist that there was no ambiguity in the OP. Which to any reasonable person is untrue.

Thus, his bad.

Your initial rant had no details on how their system holds back Indians from being creative, etc. etc.. The bulk of the rant is all about how the Indian you work with is stupid and incapable, and how other nationalities have performed better. Cultural and social issues didn't become the topic of conversation until after someone called you a racist. It just seemed odd to me that, if someone wanted to create a thread about educational problems in India, they would actually mention them in the first post, and initially state that the person is not at fault for their lack of ability. Everything there-after, even though you might not be prejudice (regardless of whether you are talking about race or nationality) just makes it look like you're trying to cover up being prejudice.

Even if you're initial motive was to make a topic about how India needs to modify it's system, I'm not sure how you can deny that someone could make a decent argument that you are prejudice in some way. (And if you are, how is that better than being racist?) Yes, the majority of Indians from India may suffer from lack of creative ability due to their education, saying such is not prejudice. But your first post focused more on how you dislike them, and how stupid the guy is, rather than his possibly poor education, suggesting that you have a pre-conceived notion about all native born Indians. You're right, technically, that's not racism, because you are not referring to race, but one could still make the argument that you are prejudice. And how's that better?

I'm not saying you are prejudice against native born Indians, and I could see how you could make an argument that you are just trying to point out in inherent flaw of India's system. No, I'm not denying that there is a flaw in India's system. But, you seem to be getting all bent out of shape at people claiming you are indeed prejudice, and even banning a certain person, even though a decent argument could be made that you are.

bull**** theres ambiguity in the first post. read the first sentence again. and then again. and then again. perhaps after the third time you'll see what the sentence means.

That's kind of the entire point.

Hyperbole.

I admit that my wording could have come off better in the original post, though I still maintain that my intent was rather discernible. Part of it comes from writing it while I was still frustrated by the situation - that's not an excuse, just an explanation.

I haven't been arguing strongly against accusations of prejudice; I've been arguing against accusations of racism, most of which came long after I made clarifications that my problem was not with people of Indian blood. Fairly early-on in the thread, I made this clear. I'm getting bent out of shape because read the original post and then reply as if they've read everything in the thread thus far. :bravo: to them.

When I find out that I'm working on a software project with someone from India, do I have apprehensions about having to shoulder more than my fair share of the work? Yes. Does that make me prejudiced? Probably, by the definition of the word. Would I forfeit any chance on that person's part to prove that they're a valuable asset to the team? Hell no.

Any prejudices I have against Indian people stop at the realm of software development (and...perhaps driving. Treating the lane divisions as a suggestion...:gonk: As a team, we decided that someone else drives us to Chipotle from now on).

On the topic of Rob's ban: his comments accusing me of racism came after I had distinctly clarified that it was a problem stemming from the educational system and had also distinctly outlined that it was not a cause of race. On top of that, he frequently trumpets the idea of taking responsibility of one's own actions, but turns around supports the idea of coddling people who lack even the most basic skills? If you don't have the basic skills for the job that you're being paid in surplus of $55,000 a year, sometimes the best solution is being dropped on your ***. Hard, with the hope that it'll jar some sense into you and you'll actually start putting for an effort to solve the problem. His ban, yes, did stem from his disagreeing with me, but the difference between himself and Yoshi was that Yoshi actually tried to make a valid argument, whereas Rob...didn't.

I can make myself as available as possible and encourage the person to ask questions. I will try to confirm that they actually understand the material (for instance, every time I discuss one of our processes, methodologies, or code with him, I now have him explain it back to me in his own words that he actually understands the material). However, it's not my job to hold your hand throughout the process. It's not my job to carry you along as you drag your feet. You help your co-workers - you're not supposed to have to do their work for them.

My frustration, in part, stems from the fact that I am responsible for getting this guy up to working order. If he fails to be able to perform these basic functions, then it reflects badly on me and the team (in addition to the possible loss that the company itself takes). So, ultimately, it is up to me to teach this guy what he should have learned in the four years of school in India and the four years of school in Oklahoma (and the skills that he should have learned while doing research for NASA). I'll try my damnedest, but I don't have to be happy grins and sugarplum fairies about it. In fact, I might hang him upside down with a fork in his ***!

I agree with a lot of what Wolfy argues, but as others have pointed out, Wolfy basically destroyed the thread from the beginning by using the title "I hate India".

I have met plenty of Indian-americans, and those who have had more of their schooling in the United States are incredibly easier to work and communicate with (most of the time), than those who are "fresh off the boat". This makes it easier to attest to what Wolfy is saying.

In situations like this, though, the real problem seems to boil down to communication problems. I guess the way to make it work best for you, Wolfy, is to try to get the guy to focus on whatever he does best, and hope the rest of the team can pick up the remainder.