Of course, they could simply replace all the players in an online match with bots and you would never know.

Dear dear, do calm down.

Seriously, not meaning to be obnoxious, but you're throwing a hissy fit about a computer game in an internet forum. I'm comfortable with my geekiness, with my post count (for crying out lout I started posting in 1997) and with the fact that despite the fact I have a healthy and active social life that even I need to get out more.

Take the chill pill, go outside and turn off your computer for a couple of hours.

Spect anal rael

Should be usertitle. >_>

I hate this feature. Since there aren't any rankings anyway, I'd rather the game end when someone quits rather than waste my time against AI.



Wasn't that technically a glitch, and therefor probably won't be included in Brawl?

I think anyone who takes SSB as serious as you forgot the point somewhere along the way. Just have fun with it. You're not the only one that's clocked thousands of hours. My friends and I have been playing SSB since grade school. In fact, we might not be friends if I hadn't invited them over to play one day. We've been playing for almost a decade now, and we still love it.

I'm looking forward to being able to play whenever I want and not needing my friends there, or even better, playing with them while they're at college out of state. If I have to deal with a little lag to do that, so be it. It will still be fun.

On an unrelated note, Falcon was pretty much finally confirmed tonight. It's about time.

It's not distance so much as it is the hops the connection takes from player to player. The speed of the electricity through a line is not going to have very much of a lag effect over a longer distance (on Earth), but if several servers have to process information and forward it on... then it'll take longer.

Of course I'm just speaking from logic cuz I dont know a damn thing about computer networking really.

This doesn't even make sense. 250ms of lag is 1/4 a second, yes, I know this, guess what, you're not the only one in the world who does. 100ms makes CS unplayable. I can still hit pings under 100 all the way from alabama to ****ing alaska...I don't think that lag's going to be much of an issue.

And honestly, no offense, but who here's going to play against people in Asia? Europe maybe, with other massassians, but Asia? What the ****? And whenever people from Europe play other massassians in the states in games as is, there's already an understanding of "it's just for fun, it's not serious". Also, I don't know about you, but I don't know anyone in Japan (just what).

How is using the term 100ms humorous?


Do you know what DSL is? Because if you did you'd know that 50mb/s is pretty unachievable. That's FIOS/OC3 speeds. OC3 iirc is 48mb/s. Lower latency != higher data transfer rates. And latency only actually comes into play over HUMONGOUS distances (we're talking like 5-10,000 miles), other than that you're gonna see average lag of about 50-60ms.


Uh...Halo (and on a console) is the LAST game I would be quoting for any kind of netcode issues. Try something pertinent that isn't highly graphical, and doesn't have much data flow. Think about it--when you're sending information over halo there's a LOT to send and it's not done very well as is. SSB doesn't have a lot to send, and knowing nintendo will be done right if at all. Didn't you read a ****ing thing I said in the last post?


Because in Brawl people will still tend to play with their friends. Also, for the love of christ, if it ruins a game leave it and play another one. That **** used to happen ALL THE TIME on starcraft. Know what I did? F10 E S Q. Join a new ****ing game. And stop *****ing.

PS--if CM says it won't affect him too bad, I'm sorry, but I have about -10% chance of believing it'll give you cancer or whatever the **** it is you think it's going to do to you. Go cry, christ.


You know what I learned a long time ago? Acting like an ******* is only a decent substitution for an actual argument when you're 15. I'm not following brawl with every waking breath--I have other **** to do. I work 12 hours a day, I do **** with family all the time, I simply do not have time to dedicate my every waking thought with the game. I just think it's gonna be badass, and I know I don't know everything (which would be why I said "correct me if I'm wrong" not "I'M RIGHT I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY YOU'RE A DUMBASS" hey that sounds familiar what)


No offense, but if the netcode's done right Fighting games should take next to nothing. Have you ever played King of Fighters on MAME? There used to be tournaments with people from ALL OVER THE WORLD playing the game against each other, and I rarely recall any lag complaints. Generally, most producers see online play as a novelty instead of something to revolve the game around. I don't think this will be so with Nintendo--as much was shown by their inclusion of wifi in the Wii itself.


Video games, or coding? Because I know people who have played video games for 30 years and still don't know **** about netcode. I'll agree I'm not the resident expert but I know enough about the idea and the games in past years that have utilized online play to know that it's not that ****ing hard to do for a fighting game. There may be concerns about that, but guess what--that's what the **** they made firmware for.

In closing, grow up, stop insulting me like a ****ing child, not to mention Martyn who was trying to be helpful if anything, and learn to debate. Or, alternatively, go jump in a fire. Either way I don't give a ****.

You take the game way too ****ing seriously--I've never said that to CM (who, by the way, I'm sure knows about 100 metric ASSTONS more about SSB than you do, in any way shape or form) so maybe that should tell you something.

Also, you've never played the game, so why would you "not touch the online play with a ten foot pole". Try it, for ****'s sakes. If you're not gonna buy it BECAUSE it has online play then you've just got the downs.

Ghaz, I dunno if it is or isn't. Some say it is, others say it wasn't, can't really get an official word. I tend to think it wasn't because since Samus is a long rang fighter, it's best to just be able to grapple em from three times the length

You're right KOP, it's not technically the distance itself that affects latency, but generally the further the distance the more hops it has to make.

Sounds to me like you've insult me far more than I have you, Yoshi, which your swearing and all.

I said I wasn't going to touch the game with a ten foot pole, I get insulted of course I'm going to get upset.

But what's wrong with using Halo 3 as an example? Why the hell would graphics have anything to do with networking? It wouldn't, and it doesn't.

See I'm sorry, you make comments like that, and Cool Matty asks why there would be lag, but it just shows you don't really understand what you're talking about, I'm sorry. You list a ton of PC games and say how lag doesn't affect them, but that's a completely different ballpark. Halo 3 has an awesome network code, Halo 2 did. As a matter of fact (again, if you had any knowledge on the subject you're discussing) you would know that Halo 3 works on DIAL UP. Yup, check out the extra features on the bonus disc to the game.

I don't take the game THAT seriously, but I am competative when it comes to it because it's just more fun that way. I'm not going to be going online with it because I can not stand lag in fighting games. That's it. Two of the friends I play with live close enough to me that when Brawl comes out, it'll be no problem having competition on Saturday.



This is what I'm talking about. I don't know why you felt the need to state "no offense" to me, go argue with the likes of Masahiro Sakurai or Yu Suzuki who say it's very difficult getting fighting games to work online. But I don't guess those two would know anything would they?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITU_G.992.5 there's a DSL technology with 24/Mbs.

Hell just go read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_japan on Wiki to see Japan's "above average" Internet.

"The unique problem facing Japan's broadband situation is that because of popularity of FTTH, operators struggle to maitain enough bandwidth to let users enjoy their service fully. Even the largest operators have capacities for only tens of gigabits even though customers with FTTH service may number in thousands if not more. This problem is further compounded by limits caused by router."

I like the word "****". I only insult you when you act stupid. You can backpedal and try to seem like the good guy all you want, but I think everyone's seen you're the one being a dick here buddy.


Sigh. I really wish I could explain it to you but I just don't think you're going to be understanding anything I'd say.


Halo 3 works on dial up.

Halo 1 barely worked on BROADBAND. How the hell do you think halo 3 works on dial up? I'll give you a hint: not well. Also, CM would know more about the aspect than either you or I, and I'm about 99% sure I know more than you. Seriously, just because you can pull down a couple wiki explanations doesn't mean you actually know what you're talking about.


I really wish there was some internet meme for backpedaling.


I said "no offense" because despite you insulting pretty much everyone on the forums who knows more than you, I was doing my best to be civil. Kinda failed near the end though. And I keep hearing this **** but I'm still yet to see sources.


Right, I forgot when 24 equals 50. K. Must be a new rule in mathematics.

Sure ****s up Jack Bauer's day I'll tell you that much.

It's a glitch.



Which doesn't matter, since you can go from one corner of the USA to the other with less than 100ms lag.



You got told, because you were stating completely ignorant reasons for avoiding it. You demonstrated absolutely no understanding for online gameplay, and we corrected you. Get over it.



He's showing that Halo 3 does fine, which is a console game. That's it.


No, I didn't ask, I asked why the hell you think it would. Because it doesn't.



So doesn't this just prove our point even better?



You mean the lag that won't exist. Unless you live in the middle of Hawaii and are trying to connect to like, Europe. Which if it's like any other game, you won't be able to do anyway.



On the contrary, they know far more than you do. Do you honestly believe they'd add online play if it was going to be impossible to play? It's downright stupid, ignorant, and senseless. They stated before online play was announced that it would only be added if it would work well. Obviously that was proven possible.

And I don't really give a damn how many hours you put into the game. If you think you can react faster than 100ms, you're insane.



I'll kill this argument in one sentence:

The majority of the internet exists in the USA.

Doesn't matter how fast Japan's network is, they have to get to the USA for a ton of the internet. Australia is also known to have major issues with that, and their internet is expensive for this reason.

CM actually made the arguments a lot better than I did. To expand upon his 100ms issue--the average person has a ~3-400ms response time. I have a .25 or .28 or something and I play a RIDICULOUS amount of "twitch" based games and have all my life. I doubt you have any faster response times.

My 16 year old sister like's that word to. She thinks it's cool to use it.




You can't, because graphics have no influence on bandwidth consumption or latency what so ever.



Bungie themselves said that it works on dial up. I'm sure your correct that it doesn't work well, I haven't tested it myself, but I'm not going to argue with the developers of the game when they say that they have tested it on dial up and claimed for it to have worked. Halo 1 barely worked on broadband because it was never programmed to work over the internet. I don't understand what you're getting at here.




No backpedaling, I simply elaborated on what I first said in the thread, that I would not touch Brawl online with a ten foot pole. I prefer to play the game under optimal conditions, and through my experience fighting games do not work well (enough for me) to play them online. FPS's are different, they don't frustrate me as much when they lag as fighting games do.




I don't recall insulting anyone prior to being insulted myself. Just look up sources yourself, it's not difficult. Most of the information I gather come from interviews either in magazines and online, and I don't bookmark them. Here, I did a little for you. Go to Google, copy and paste ("yu suzuki" "online lag"), remove the parenthesis and hit enter. Just look.


Right, I forgot when 24 equals 50. K. Must be a new rule in mathematics.

Sure ****s up Jack Bauer's day I'll tell you that much.[/QUOTE]

Read the wikipedia article I linked. Or just go to google, and once again, simply type in "50Mbit DSL". Apparently, they have such speed in Germany from T-Com. Looks like I learnt something new myself.

Onto Cool Matty.



Yes of course YOU CAN, but this isn't always the case and you know this. The Internet becomes congested and several other factors fall into that.



See, this is the kind of statement that just irks me. You claim that my excuses were ignorant, when they were exact opposite. I have experience with online fighting games and their online performance is not to my pleasing. What is so difficult to understand about this? SSB:M happens to be one of my, if not my, favorite games of all time. I would prefer to play it under optimal conditions, and that is only achievable on the same system or local LAN. Period. End of story. I don't have to play the game to know that it will be fact. See end of post for a follow up to this.



Yea Halo 3 does do fine, but the network code compensation for latency is easily noticable. His words were "Try something pertinent that isn't highly graphical, and doesn't have much data flow. Think about it--when you're sending information over halo there's a LOT to send and it's not done very well as is." I was just wondering why he would bring graphics into the discussion, that's not relevant in the slightest.



No it doesn't. The point I was making by using that example is simply that Halo 3 has network compensation done very well. It's playable of course, but you're going to be at a huge disadvantage. According to DJ, "250ms lag is 56k speeds". So apparently a FPS is playable over dial up. A fourth of a second delay in a fighting game, however, is huge. They're barely tolerable on broadband for others as it is, not at all for me.



::sigh:: I'm just not even bothering with this one.



I didn't say impossible, I said difficult. Again, both of them have stated that it was difficult to implement (and they're not the only two of course) and you will encounter lag if you play them online.



Again, ::sigh::. Sakurai has stated he wasn't perfectly satisfied with the online performance of the game in Japan. Where they test the game. There is no reason for those packets to be sent to the US, so your statement was pointless. On the superior internet in Japan, Sakurai still wasn't 100% satisfied. That's the point. There's no logical reason why it would perform better in the US.

Seriously, have either of you two actually played a fighting game online? Have any of you actually played a console online? Do either of you realise that there is a huge difference between PC games online, and consoles online? Just because you get 40ms ping on your computer (and to what exactly was never elaborated on, but I'm going to assume it was to a game server) does not mean you are going to on a console. When you ping your server or whatever, you're going the shortest route available to that server accross the entire internet. If your Xbox were to ping the opponent you are playing (we'll use Halo 3 as an example), your information is being sent all the way to Microsoft, then to Bungie, then to the person on the other end. That is a lot more steps. Factor in 14 other people are also doing this, and you get higher latency than 40.

It is completely different. I have a 3.0/768 connection to the internet. I remember getting pings as low as 30-35 on my favorite Half-Life servers. I can tell you that you will not get these pings over Xbox Live, the Playstation Network, or Nintendo's online service. You just won't.

Yoshi how do you know any of that? You're sure that CM knows "100 metric ASSTONS" more than me but you don't know a single thing about me. You don't know my favorite character, my favorite level, my preferred stock, spawn rate of items, etc. Yet you're "sure", right? You doubt I have faster response times? You have absolutely no way of knowing that, do you? That claim is simply e-Penis.

I thought to myself shortly after getting into this discussion with the both of you that I was dealing with ignorance. Both of you seem to be ignorant to the performance of fighting games online, reassured to me that fact you actually think you're going to have a 40ms ping, whether it be on the Wii or Xbox Live.

All this started becaue I said that I would not like to play Brawl online. That's it, nothing more. Apparently my claims were "ignorant" as to why I was avoiding to play it online, when as I stated they were the exact opposite. If Brawl is the exception and has no noticable lag then I will be extremely surprised AND pleased. But I'm sure it won't be.

With that I'm done with this thread. Call it back pedaling if you wish Yoshi, or me just giving up, I don't care. I know that I know what I'm talking about and I do not need to prove it to anyone.

But when the game comes out, I'm gonna revisit this thread on the condition that the game gets AWESOME appraisel on it's online performance. Not just from review sites (because we all know GameSpot is corrupt, firing writers for giving reviews that didn't suite their sponsors) but also from gamers. I will admit I was completely wrong and hell I'll never even post in this forum again, as little as I do now. But if the online aspect of the game gets the reception I expect it to, I won't come back to this thread. I won't say a word about it. Kinda like a no-win situation for me, isn't it?

So your sister likes the word ****?


Is she hawt?

The hell they don't. PCs prove that easily. If your FPS lags, then your ping will skyrocket.

You won't argue with the developers, yet you are now. You are denying the developers of Brawl that they know what they're doing and that online play will be fine.


Maybe that's because you suck at them.

Rarely. And on that same token, consoles bug out or crash sometimes. Or do weird things, even in offline play. Need I point out the Black Hole glitch in Melee?

And even if you were so damn concerned with lag, it tells you how good the connection is to the player before you even play. Don't like their connection? Find some new players.



You do not have experience with Brawl's online performance.

You are the most uptight and ridiculous person I've ever seen. Let's just ignore the facts, and make blatant assumptions that online play will absolutely suck! Yeah, that's the way!

It is relevent. As I mentioned above.

Regardless, if you can't manage to play with any sort of network compensation, then you must be a far worse player of Smash Bros than you claim to be. I think you're just worried that your skill is going to suffer online because you refuse to adapt. Well, have fun with that, meanwhile the entire rest of the population, including competitive figures, will be playing online.

Good thing dialup isn't a realistic option for the Wii, right? Last I checked, there's no dial up modem, and setting up to share the 56k connection is beyond the technical capabilities of most people.

::sigh:: I won't reply cause I can't come up with anything to refute it

You actually seem to think that because online play was difficult to implement that it was somehow butchered. Hell. ****ing. No.

I like how you constantly go "Sakurai this, Sakurai that". Yet you blatantly ignore the fact that he's stated numerous times that online play would only be added if it met his high personal standards.

Are you trying to tell me that Sakurai's own standards for gameplay on Smash Bros are somehow less than your own? That's pretty sad.

I don't even know where to start with this, since it's all so wrong. Console games like Halo 3 or fighting games do NOT have higher ping rates than anything you'd see on your PC. The games do NOT communicate with microsoft, then bungie, before reaching the other player. Consoles are directly connected.

Haven't you ever seen that message on Halo 3 saying "Choosing new server for game"? It's not referring to some magical master server at bungie, it's referring to the 360, as the user who was hosting dropped out.

In summary: Ping is exactly the same on PC and 360, and there's absolutely no reason to think it would be otherwise.

This is exactly why I keep saying you know NOTHING about online gameplay.

Or, you will, and you'd have absolutely no damn reason not to. Jesus Christ, you fail miserably. Stop posting until you have at least a basic understanding of how networks function.

He's sure because so far you've failed miserably to prove otherwise.



No, you're ignorant of how the network even works. You actually believe that all games route through bungie and microsoft servers before reaching other players. Do you have any idea what kind of logistics bungie would require to implement something of that scale? It would be ridiculous.



No, you stated that you would not like to play Brawl online because of the "lag" it's supposedly going to have.

And hell, even if there is "noticible" lag, are you really that poor of a player not to adapt?



No, you don't know what you're talking about, you're beginning to realize this, and rather than admit it you're going to run away. Nice job.



Oh, but what about all the other numerous things you are dead wrong about, like the basic infrastructure of online play? Or the mysterious belief that having a super-fast connection magically makes your ping lower than someone with a decent connection (*cough* Japan argument *cough*).

It's a no win because you made it that way.

This is all I'm responding to for now as I have work in 20 minutes.

I know he knows a lot more because I've seen him talk about SSB. He has it down to a ****in science. You just played a lot. And I know you don't have faster reflexes because, like I said, the average I think is .4 or around there, and there's a damn good chance you don't have better reflexes than me, and even if you do it's not by much.

[quote=SpectraelI thought to myself shortly after getting into this discussion with the both of you that I was dealing with ignorance. Both of you seem to be ignorant to the performance of fighting games online, reassured to me that fact you actually think you're going to have a 40ms ping, whether it be on the Wii or Xbox Live.[/quote]
Why do you keep going "Wii" or "Xbox Live". We're talking about the internet, not consoles. Period. And you keep calling us ignorant, but this is based on your fount of knowledge--if you're gonna put so much effort into your arguments, it's up to YOU to find sources for them.


You said you wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Considering there's no tests of the game done online, there's no footage of online play, no documented problems, you've never come within a thousand miles of a playable copy, and you were saying "I'm not playing this waaaaaaaaaah", I think that's a pretty ****ing ignorant thing to say.


You never proved anything in the first place. You told us to google **** and "trust your knowledge". What?


I don't think Gamespot will lie about online performance. Maybe how good the game is overall, but not online performance.

And I got a hundred bucks that says you don't post on massassi for a long time because you got your panties in a twist.