Massassi Forums Logo

This is the static archive of the Massassi Forums. The forums are closed indefinitely. Thanks for all the memories!

You can also download Super Old Archived Message Boards from when Massassi first started.

"View" counts are as of the day the forums were archived, and will no longer increase.

ForumsDiscussion Forum → Huckabee is insane
1234
Huckabee is insane
2008-01-18, 5:05 AM #1
Holy crap. While I considered him the most likeable of the Republican candidates, I read this article today and my mind has been changed:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/17/election08.gop/index.html

Quote:
The Iowa caucus winner weighed in on the state's perennial debate over displaying the Confederate flag Thursday, expressing sympathy with those who believe the rebel banner should be flown.


Quote:
He has reiterated his support for constitutional amendments to ban abortion and same-sex marriage -- which he told the Web site Beliefnet.com could open the door to polygamy, pedophilia and bestiality.

"Once we change the definition, the door is open to change it again," he said.


Quote:
Huckabee also told a Michigan audience ahead of that state's Tuesday primary that, "What we need to do is to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards, rather than try to change God's standards so it lines up with some contemporary view of how we treat each other and how we treat the family."


Quote:
And he has toughened his stance on illegal immigration, signing a pledge Wednesday to oppose "amnesty" for illegal immigrants if elected.


The last one really turned me off to Huckabee, as I liked his immigration policy (secure the border and provide paths to citizenship for existing resident illegal aliens).

Good lord. If it comes down to Clinton v. Huckabee, I'm voting Clinton. :psyduck:

(Though I hope it's Obama v. <insert Republican> - Obama '08!)
the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot - LC Tusken
2008-01-18, 5:07 AM #2
If it ever comes down to whoever v. Huckabee... well, I think I have to call you nuts again. Seriously this time.
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2008-01-18, 5:29 AM #3
While it is fair to disagree with any candidate I fail to see how the citations from the article support your statement that he is insane. Also, you should remember that liberal republicans like McCain and Huckabee believe that if you fine an illegal alien in the process of allowing them to become legal that is not amnesty (due to the fact that amnesty means there is no penalty at all). Now his comment about the flag was obviously only him addressing people that were concerned about the political correctness of modifying the state flag. The article plainly states he believes the issue is not one for the president to be involved in. There also is nothing truly controversial about the same sex argument. If you broaden the definition, every group practicing a particular sexual lifestyle can use the same argument. And his quote referencing God obviously followed his logic that God defines marriage as between a man and a woman and that he believes the constitution should be modified in such a way.

Like I said, disagree but no need to call him insane. Don't worry, if he is elected he will govern in a liberal enough fashion to not disturb you. And remember, a president can only sign into laws bills that the congress (therefore theoretically the people) send him.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-01-18, 5:42 AM #4
Originally posted by Wookie06:
liberal republicans like McCain and Huckabee


lol
Looks like we're not going down after all, so nevermind.
2008-01-18, 5:44 AM #5
That's Wookie06 to you, Krokopops.
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2008-01-18, 6:08 AM #6
But your constitution has nothing to do with God. There's this nice thing called separation of Church and State. The idea being that no religion pushes itself on anyone else. If marriage is an institution with responsibilities and benefits conferred upon it by the state, then the state ought not to discriminate against it's own citizens because of one religion's rules on how to use your p<genki>s. If gay people can live happily together for years and adopt and raise a child even, why deny them the help that heterosexual couples get? Or are you concerned that this will interfere with the sacred right for marriage to be between two drunk people who don't know each other and get married for $20 in a chapel in Vegas?

And you can't expand the sex argument to cover sex with non-consenting partners.
2008-01-18, 6:10 AM #7
Most of the Republican candidates are just fighting over who gets to lead the next crusade.
2008-01-18, 6:17 AM #8
Originally posted by Recusant:
But your constitution has nothing to do with God. There's this nice thing called separation of Church and State. The idea being that no religion pushes itself on anyone else. If marriage is an institution with responsibilities and benefits conferred upon it by the state, then the state ought not to discriminate against it's own citizens because of one religion's rules on how to use your p<genki>s. If gay people can live happily together for years and adopt and raise a child even, why deny them the help that heterosexual couples get? Or are you concerned that this will interfere with the sacred right for marriage to be between two drunk people who don't know each other and get married for $20 in a chapel in Vegas?

And you can't expand the sex argument to cover sex with non-consenting partners.


Marriage is inherently religious, though. Civil marriages are a relatively recent phenomenon. It isn't that God would be specifically brought into the constitution, it's that he is saying, in my opinion, that the constitution should reflect the values most people have which are religious in basis.

Actually, let me say that I'm not defending Huckabee. He has obviously been pandering to the religious. Despite his liberal record I could vote for him because of his support for the Fair Tax. The Bush tax cuts were okay but by further shifting the tax burden to the wealthiest tax payers he has created a mentality in many Americans that they could care less if taxes are raised on the rich because most people aren't paying much if any federal income tax now.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-01-18, 6:35 AM #9
No, Huckabee is fardreaming crazy, but then again so are you. He believes a Christian majority justifies an abolishment of our nation's foundation. Huckabee sees the seat of presidency as a means to cast the judgments of his personal God upon the people of the United States. The disturbing use of libertarian ideals in order to push a religious monarchy scares the livid spe out of me.

And yet again, you pull the shade over your eyes in the name of partisan soapboxing. I'm hardly surprised.
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2008-01-18, 6:37 AM #10
The constitution should be neutral on religious matters surely? That's the whole point of the separation of church and state isn't it? If you lived in Hollywood would you think it right to be living under rules made to reflect the beliefs of Scientologists?
Here in the UK you can separate your marriage into two ceremonies. One is religious in a church, synagogue, mosque etc, and then after the ceremony you have it legally registered. This allows the religious groups that have a problem with anything to be able to opt out without screaming bloody murder over people getting married in a non-religious ceremony instead. My impression is that it's never been about pushing these marriages upon the churches, but letting people follow their own harmless desires for happiness.

If I marry one day, I doubt it will be religious at all unless someone's parents absolutely need appeasement. In which case, surely my marriage would be as objectionable as a gay marriage?
2008-01-18, 7:52 AM #11
Originally posted by Wookie06:
Marriage is inherently religious, though. Civil marriages are a relatively recent phenomenon. It isn't that God would be specifically brought into the constitution, it's that he is saying, in my opinion, that the constitution should reflect the values most people have which are religious in basis.


Marriage is a religious institution. I think the government should honor separation of church and state and stay the hell away from it. If one denomination believes marriage should only be between a man and a woman, fine. If another denomination believes same-sex is acceptable, fine.

I don't think marriage is something the government should regulate or give perks based on.
2008-01-18, 9:05 AM #12
Originally posted by IRG SithLord:
I don't think marriage is something the government should regulate or give perks based on.

Thank. You.

God ( :v: ) I'm getting sick and tired of the Religious Right.
Code to the left of him, code to the right of him, code in front of him compil'd and thundered. Programm'd at with shot and $SHELL. Boldly he typed and well. Into the jaws of C. Into the mouth of PERL. Debug'd the 0x258.
2008-01-18, 9:09 AM #13
[edit] this post in response to the thing JG quoted.[/edit]

but it does. the whole point of this issue is that hetero couples get tax advantages for marriage, whether official marriages or common law marriages. there are same sex couples who have exactly the same living conditions as hetero couples living in a common law marriage(except for the fact that they are the same sex) who dont get those advantages. its totally unfair. blah blah blah life isnt fair, whatever. if all men are created equal as the declaration of independence claims, then why should hetero couples get special treatment? its rediculous.

the issue has nothing to do with religion. the only ones who see it that way are those who are opposed to it. this is a legal matter, and religion should be left out of it completely. (for this argument i'm ignoring the minority of homosexuals who are faithful to their religion of choice and wish they could be married in a religious ceremony. that isnt the real issue.)

its a huge double standard. we have anti-discrimination laws protecting the rights of homosexuals, but somehow they have less rights than heterosexuals. theres no reason for this other than intolerance and bigotry.
My girlfriend paid a lot of money for that tv; I want to watch ALL OF IT. - JM
2008-01-18, 9:14 AM #14
Now it's a legal matter, baby
Marryin's no fun
It's a legal matter, baby
A legal matter from now on
2008-01-18, 9:22 AM #15
Originally posted by IRG SithLord:
Marriage is a religious institution. I think the government should honor separation of church and state and stay the hell away from it. If one denomination believes marriage should only be between a man and a woman, fine. If another denomination believes same-sex is acceptable, fine.

I don't think marriage is something the government should regulate or give perks based on.


Yes please.

But that said, if we can't get government out of marriage, then we have to admit that marriage isn't a primarily religious institution any longer, and then we have to provide gay couples with the appropriate benefits. The current situation does not create equality under the law and needs to be remedied.

And yes, anyone who sees a slippery slope from homosexuality to pedophilia and bestiality is insane.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2008-01-18, 9:38 AM #16
This is the same old usless bickering that always goes on about politics. I'm so sick of it.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2008-01-18, 9:44 AM #17
Originally posted by Wookie06:
There also is nothing truly controversial about the same sex argument. If you broaden the definition, every group practicing a particular sexual lifestyle can use the same argument.

what
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-01-18, 9:48 AM #18
Originally posted by IRG SithLord:
Marriage is a religious institution. I think the government should honor separation of church and state and stay the hell away from it.

Marriage may be inherently religious but it is not solely religious anymore. The government needs to either step out or give the same rights to everyone. It does not matter if marriage is defined as "a union between a man and a woman." That's semantic bull**** that bigoted *******s use to justify their narrow minded beliefs, and nothing more.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-01-18, 9:56 AM #19
Guess what, Marriage carries more than religious connotations now. It matters in cases of end of life situations, where a parent, who may have completely removed the man on the deathbed from their lives, who then gets to choose whether the person lives or dies, rather than the man who has steadfastly stood by him for 20 or 30 years!

Anyone who wants to bar a loving person from deciding these decisions for their mate is just insane. They have no perception of right and wrong, and are only a mouthpiece for a religious ideology that has no place in law.
"If you watch television news, you will know less about the world than if you just drink gin straight out of the bottle."
--Garrison Keillor
2008-01-18, 10:06 AM #20
Originally posted by fishstickz:
Guess what, Marriage carries more than religious connotations now. It matters in cases of end of life situations, where a parent, who may have completely removed the man on the deathbed from their lives, who then gets to choose whether the person lives or dies, rather than the man who has steadfastly stood by him for 20 or 30 years!

Anyone who wants to bar a loving person from deciding these decisions for their mate is just insane. They have no perception of right and wrong, and are only a mouthpiece for a religious ideology that has no place in law.


Well, marriage only carries the extra connotations that the government gave it, which it shouldn't have in the first place.
2008-01-18, 10:07 AM #21
Originally posted by Emon:
Marriage may be inherently religious but it is not solely religious anymore. The government needs to either step out or give the same rights to everyone. It does not matter if marriage is defined as "a union between a man and a woman." That's semantic bull**** that bigoted *******s use to justify their narrow minded beliefs, and nothing more.


...did you even read my post?
2008-01-18, 10:08 AM #22
Yes. Sorry, I wasn't clear, I didn't disagree with you, I was only commenting along side what you wrote.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-01-18, 10:13 AM #23
Regarding the tax advantages of being married, it is only recently (Bush administration) that the tax penalty for being married has been removed. It used to be that a working couple would pay more taxes than they would if they remained single. This is because the married filing jointly standard deduction was less than double the single rate. It is now double the single rate. The married filing seperately standard deduction is now equal to the single rate where it used to be less.

Now, there is a tax advantage to be being married under either system if only one spouse will ever work. This usually isn't the case with homosexuals it appears.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-01-18, 10:17 AM #24
Originally posted by Emon:
Yes. Sorry, I wasn't clear, I didn't disagree with you, I was only commenting along side what you wrote.


Ah, ok.
2008-01-18, 10:18 AM #25
Originally posted by fishstickz:
Anyone who wants to bar a loving person from deciding these decisions for their mate is just insane. They have no perception of right and wrong, and are only a mouthpiece for a religious ideology that has no place in law.


This is where the miseducation of people is so obvious. The basis of our legal system is religion. And if the people of a state want to ban gay marriage then shame on the government for ramming it down their throats. And if a super majority of states want to pass a constitutional amendment banning it federally then that would negate the argument, anyway.

As it is, it is just bigoted to call someone insane and that they have no perception of right and wrong because you disagree with them about letting gays marry.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-01-18, 10:20 AM #26
I don't care what the basis is. Separation of Church and State written quite clearly in the Constitution.
2008-01-18, 10:21 AM #27
Originally posted by Wookie06:
The basis of our legal system is religion.

I suppose you think our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values, too, huh?
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-01-18, 10:27 AM #28
Originally posted by Wookie06:
And if the people of a state want to ban gay marriage then shame on the government for ramming it down their throats.

No. Our government doesn't work that way. It was designed to protect the minority because the majority can become corrupted, bigoted *******s. This is the basis behind freedom of speech. On this issue, separation of church and state also protects the minority.

Religion has no place in government. None. At all. EVER.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-01-18, 10:27 AM #29
I'm sorry, but what is so inherently religious about marriage? I don't recall any marriage happening in the bible. I mean sure, there were married people in the bible, but there were also polygamists (which is now bad?) and murderers. Marriage should be no more religious than circumsicion, which is mentioned in the bible a whole heck of a lot more.

But regardless of what you wanna call it (don't wanna upset the fundies), gay couples deserve the same rights that straight couples do. Tax breaks, hospital visits, inheritance, etc.
2008-01-18, 10:28 AM #30
Originally posted by Wookie06:
This is where the miseducation of people is so obvious. The basis of our legal system is religion. And if the people of a state want to ban gay marriage then shame on the government for ramming it down their throats. And if a super majority of states want to pass a constitutional amendment banning it federally then that would negate the argument, anyway.

As it is, it is just bigoted to call someone insane and that they have no perception of right and wrong because you disagree with them about letting gays marry.

That is unmitigated crap. What religion is the legal system based on? Hammurabi's Babylonian Codex? The Christian Ten Commandments? The Five Pillars of Islam? So many people have claimed that the constitution is based upon the 10 commandments yet only two of them: "don't kill" and "don't steal" are in line with the constitution and even the "don't lie" clause is only really true in the case of perjury and libel. The rest would actually be considered unconstitutional.

Copy/pasta because this guy puts it better than I could do:
Quote:
1. Thou shall have no other Gods before me.

Blatantly unconstitutional. The free exercise clause of the first amendment guarantees that we each have the right to follow any God and any religious belief system we wish.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

Also unconstitutional on free exercise grounds. Americans can make any graven image they wish to make, and bow down to whatever god or idol they wish.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

Unconstitutional on both freedom of religion and free speech grounds.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

Again, unconstitutional on free exercise grounds.

5. Honour thy father and thy mother

A good idea, in most cases, but a law requiring it would be unconstitutional and outside the purview of government. You can't legally enforce an individual's feelings toward their parents.

6. Thou shalt not kill

This one is obviously constitutional, and is a part of our legal system. But it's also found in EVERY legal system, even those that have nothing to do with the bible or Christianity. No society can condone murder of each other and survive, so this is simply a survival imperative.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery


Another one that is a good idea, but not constitutional if legally enforced. Adultery is a moral wrong, but it's a private matter between individuals.

8. Thou shalt not steal

This is the second one that is obviously constitutional, but also found in every legal system regardless of the religious system that may have initially spawned it. A universal imperative that would be part of the law even if the bible never existed.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour


Some have interpreted this to be analagous to our perjury laws, but nothing in the text indicates that. It's talking about lying in general, not in a legal sense during court proceedings. And while lying may be wrong, it's not legally wrong except in specific circumstances - perjury and libel/slander. Under our system, most instances of lying would be covered by the first amendment free speech clause.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's

Not only unconstitutional, it would require the ability to read minds. If coveting what your neighbor has was against the law in the US, there would be no "keeping up with the Joneses". You cannot, under our system, legislate against thoughts or feelings.

Source: http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/12/more_huckabee_absurdity.php
2008-01-18, 10:29 AM #31
Quote:
The basis of our legal system is religion.


Hahahah! The basis of our legal system is FREEDOM and SEPERATION from religion. You know Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson and surely many more were not Christian, right? God! To imagine our declaration of independence being drafted by a heathen deist!
2008-01-18, 10:40 AM #32
Most of the founding fathers hated religion. They were deists at best. Thomas Paine wrote one of the most vicious attacks on Christianity of the time in The Age of Reason.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-01-18, 11:01 AM #33
ohai guize whats going on in here??

[http://www.aetn.org/election2002/assets/images/mhuckabee1.jpg]
:master::master::master:
2008-01-18, 11:02 AM #34
Originally posted by Michael MacFarlane:
And yes, anyone who sees a slippery slope from homosexuality to pedophilia and bestiality is insane.


WHO NEEDS LOGIC WHEN YOU GOT JESUS?
:master::master::master:
2008-01-18, 11:18 AM #35
Obama's getting the presidency I'm about 80% sure.

Could be worse *shrug*
D E A T H
2008-01-18, 12:21 PM #36
I really truly hope he does.

But I'd really like someone to respond to:

Quote:
I'm sorry, but what is so inherently religious about marriage? I don't recall any marriage happening in the bible. I mean sure, there were married people in the bible, but there were also polygamists (which is now bad?) and murderers. Marriage should be no more religious than circumsicion, which is mentioned in the bible a whole heck of a lot more.
2008-01-18, 12:57 PM #37
Originally posted by Emon:
Marriage may be inherently religious but it is not solely religious anymore. The government needs to either step out or give the same rights to everyone. It does not matter if marriage is defined as "a union between a man and a woman." That's semantic bull**** that bigoted *******s use to justify their narrow minded beliefs, and nothing more.


It's ALL semantic bull. The ONLY reason any marriages need to have a legal aspect to them, is for the protection of the kids that marriages usually result in. Anything else is just a relic from the days when gender roles were a lot more defined and stereotyped. It really doesn't matter at all. There's no reason a gay couple couldn't go out right now and get an unofficial marriage. If the government right now stopped recognizing marriage, people would still get married. The whole issue is just a bunch of garbage where both sides are trying to use the legal system to thumb their noses at the other side. It really does not matter to me one way or another, but I really, really don't want anyone screwing around with the constitution.

Originally posted by Wookie06:

Actually, let me say that I'm not defending Huckabee. He has obviously been pandering to the religious. Despite his liberal record I could vote for him because of his support for the Fair Tax. The Bush tax cuts were okay but by further shifting the tax burden to the wealthiest tax payers he has created a mentality in many Americans that they could care less if taxes are raised on the rich because most people aren't paying much if any federal income tax now.



Fair Tax would only work if they first dramatically cut spending. In order for them to get the same currently insufficient amount of revenue, everyone with incomes between 30,000 and 200,000 would see their taxes go way up.

Also, with regards to Huckabee's craziness, old newz.

Originally posted by Emon:
Most of the founding fathers hated religion. They were deists at best. Thomas Paine wrote one of the most vicious attacks on Christianity of the time in The Age of Reason.



Most is excessive. Some yes, but much less than half.
2008-01-18, 1:16 PM #38
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
It's ALL semantic bull. The ONLY reason any marriages need to have a legal aspect to them, is for the protection of the kids that marriages usually result in. Anything else is just a relic from the days when gender roles were a lot more defined and stereotyped. It really doesn't matter at all. There's no reason a gay couple couldn't go out right now and get an unofficial marriage. If the government right now stopped recognizing marriage, people would still get married. The whole issue is just a bunch of garbage where both sides are trying to use the legal system to thumb their noses at the other side. It really does not matter to me one way or another, but I really, really don't want anyone screwing around with the constitution.

Actually, you're wholly and perfectly wrong. The entire brujah is about a lot of tax laws that only married couples get access to. Taxation and benefits and credit all work a LOT differently when you're married as opposed to just a civil union.
D E A T H
2008-01-18, 1:30 PM #39
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Fair Tax would only work if they first dramatically cut spending. In order for them to get the same currently insufficient amount of revenue, everyone with incomes between 30,000 and 200,000 would see their taxes go way up.


I disagree. Now we tax productivity and individuals already foot the entire tax burden. All corporate taxes are passed to the consumer anyway. If we eliminated all those taxes, prosperity would increase for all and revenue to the government would increase. This is somewhat similar to the tax cuts for the wealthy (which is a lie) that Bush brought. Revenue to the government has never been higher. Now, I'm not saying the government raking in tons of money is great but when your tax burden is lower and the revenue is greater, that is not a bad thing.

I do agree that spending should be slashed, though.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-01-18, 1:32 PM #40
Originally posted by Dj Yoshi:
Actually, you're wholly and perfectly wrong. The entire brujah is about a lot of tax laws that only married couples get access to. Taxation and benefits and credit all work a LOT differently when you're married as opposed to just a civil union.


What tax benefits? Married people used to be penalized, as I already explained. Only recently have they received equal treatment to single filers. At the federal level of course. I have no idea what each various state may have going on.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

1234

↑ Up to the top!