This is kind of interesting, thought some people would like to see it.

http://media1.stream2you.com/rnc/072304v2.wmv

I'm aware that this thread might devolve into a flamewar, so i'm not even going to bother asking people not to flame.

.'/

i think it makes a good point, but i realize as well that's it's very slanted and biased, and it probably takes a few things out of context and is presented in a way as to put severe doubt on kerry's words... but whatever.

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Saberopus: omfq musical genuis j00 >mozart
Thrawn42689: Mozart = n00b

Kerry FLIP FLOPPED on a ISSUE???!!!??!
NO WAY!
[/sarcasm]

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

I've always wondered how Kerry is accused of being a flip flopper....but also have the most liberal voting record in the senate. How does that work?

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Kieran: The reason I put a link to it is because she is in underwear and I know the admins are touchy on that.
Yecti: Jaiph will touch himself for hours if he so much as smells a woman's underwear

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited August 05, 2004).]

Only fools don't change their minds.

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

His voting record for 2003 was the most liberal in the senate. The "flip-flopper" label has more to do with the fact that he seems to have no core values. He will tailer his comments specifically to what he believes the group he is speaking to needs to hear. That may sound normal for a politician but when you say one day that you believe life starts at conception and are opposed to abortion to one group but then support abortion... Just for example. Then again, he is a complex man. According to him.

Anyway, I was unable to view the link above but the new buzz is on a damning 60 second ad where Vietnam vets that served with Kerry relay their memories of his service. It can be viewed at www.swiftvets.com

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Have you forgotten ...

Or people that are right. I did manage to view the video now. Good stuff. I just think it is important for voters on both sides to be aware of his record on the issue. I really don't see how the video was biased in that it didn't manufacture material. It presented solidly factual information. Now of course the intent of the video is biased. It was produced by the RNC, afterall.

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Have you forgotten ...

You know republicans are only worried about his flip flopping when he changes his mind against what they want. If he were to be pro abortion, and he changed his mind and said "no I think I should be anti-abortion" would they still call him a flip flopper? I hear republicans trying to convince me that I should vote bush instead of kerry. If I changed my vote, would that make me a flip flopper?

Yeah I didn't think so. As long as it serves them, it's ok.

So Kerry went to 'nam voluntarily. He thought it was right to serve his country. When he got there and came back he had changed his opinion of the war. He thought it was wrong. He threw his medals away and fought to end the war. So he learned from his experiences. If you want a leader that can't admit that what he did was wrong, and change his beliefs, vote for bush. Kerry has the ability to say "hey, I was wrong. Looks like I'm gonna go stand over on the other side of this fence."

And you may all hate Farenheit 9/11, but the sad fact is, the only place you can see alot of bush incriminating footage is in that movie. Why is this stuff never shown on the news?

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I figure that one day I'll either be famous, or in prison. But I guess if I'm going to prison, I should probably try to do something that would make me famous anyway.

Ictus tells me that site is a hoax, or at least just lying.


Ictus also tells me that things which aren't reported by several redundant news sources are suspect and quite possibly rather disreputable as well.

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[This message has been edited by Dormouse (edited August 05, 2004).]

And by the way. Is it better to stick to your guns or to change your mind? If you flip flop and can't decide are you a indecisive person? Is it better to stick to your guns? But what if you're WRONG? If you stick to your guns instead of changing your mind, is it better? I don't think so.

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I figure that one day I'll either be famous, or in prison. But I guess if I'm going to prison, I should probably try to do something that would make me famous anyway.

Especially as new information becomes available.

I've see (and you can easily see in the polls) the shift in support for the war. So, apparently, the majority of the population here in the US are also flip-floppers. So isn't this all a lot like the pot calling the kettle black?

What the Republicans are doing is exploiting a reasoning fallacy known as Poisoning the Well
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Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited August 05, 2004).]

Damning? Not exactly. I'm not claiming the ad is a total hoax, but it certainly doesn't show the whole picture.

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"I am downright amazed at what I can destroy with just a hammer."
-Atom and His Package

[edit]


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Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited August 05, 2004).]

You should watch the Bush vs. Bush debate on the Daily Show website. It's funny.

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free mp3 ~Jump - Young America

new album Between the Dim and the Dark available now

This by the way is an intriguing analysis of F911, entitled: 59 Deceits in Fahrenheit 911

I would forward it as suggest reading to anyone who doesn't mind sitting down and reading long exhaustiveish analyses.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
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Dor, as Snopes explains, many of the site's signatures and quotes come from people who had no or little interaction with Kerry. Only one signature came from someone who actually served under him. I never said the site was a hoax or was lying, just that it was meaningless and deceptive.

(Most) every factual claim in Fahrenheit 9/11 was reported by several major news sources.

Also, there's a comprehensive debunking of 59 Deceits here.

People just don't WANT Fahrenheit 9/11 to be true. I mean jesus, is it so hard to believe that Bush is a bad man/president?

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There is no signature

Fair enough, Ictus. It was a problem with my wording more than with what you had said.

And the Snopes site was an informative read.
However, it still didn't seem to address where Kerry came up with his list of attrocities committed by Swiftboat soldiers when all the Swiftboat soldiers quoted have negative knowledge/observation of those events. Not damning, i know, it's more my curiousity than anything.

Regarding news sources and F911, that was more in response to Bill's claim that the movie was the only place most of that was ever shown, which seemed to speak of some cover-up or repression of information or censoring of the press by the Powers That Be.

When it seems fairly clear that most if not all of it, as you say, /has/ been reported and such [albeit some of it you have to go a bit digging for as it wasn't prime-time headlines or whatever[, however i am also sure that there are a lot of people where their primary source of information about such is that movie. Those are the people i would be somewhat concerned about, were i Moore at least i would seriously hope people would not just take everything i present in film at face-value and that they would go and dig up citations and sources and debate points and such. But that's not entirely here nor there really.

*starts reading Debunking of the Debunking*
I would be more impressed were he to have written in a somewhat more professional and less [snide/adolescent?] fashion, however he does still seem to make good points. I just somewhat twitch at someone trying to present a serious rebuttal with things like 'oh, please..' and 'gee'.

At this rate someone will write up a comprehensive Debunking of the Debunking of the Debunking, with the quotations and replies getting shorter and shorter until it turns into "don't make me come over there and debunk your face" responded to with "oh please, at least my face isn't a terrorist", and then....
Forget it.. *closes both sites*

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[This message has been edited by Dormouse (edited August 05, 2004).]

Yes it was reported, but most people forget about this stuff. And it wasn't reported the way it is shown in the film. Most things that you see on the news are cut down versions and we don't really get the point... But in Moore's film we get the full effect.

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I figure that one day I'll either be famous, or in prison. But I guess if I'm going to prison, I should probably try to do something that would make me famous anyway.

If that were the case, he would do well to come ut and say "You know, I was wrong on this issue" but that's not how it's working.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

McCain condemns anti-Kerry ads, calls on White House to follow suit

McCain is awesome.

You know, I'm still waiting for someone to point to an issue where Kerry changes his position when it isn't justified.

Avenger: See administration re: WMD, al-Qaeda links.

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited August 05, 2004).]

Indeed he is. I'd have loved to see McCain as President.

One of the biggest issues that the Bush camp is attacking is on his intelligence plans. Kerry currently saying that he wants to increase intelligence and such but has voted to lower funding for intel in the past. Samr for the military. HE's currently saying he won't scale back the military, but his voting record doesn't exactly agree.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Why can't more people accept this position:
"I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. I think George Bush served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War."

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"That's why we had to beat you with tennis rackets".
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Freaking huge appropriations bills are inseparable mixtures of programs and pork. Voting against primarily pork bill and later voting for a primarily worthwhile program bill is not flip-flopping, even if it falls under the same intelligence heading.

Dor: Because it's not true. Learning to fly an obsolete plane, taking time off to work on a political campaign, and finally skipping out entirely is not the same as risking death and dismemberment, saving crewmates lives, and then returning home to take an extremely unpopular position based on the demands of your conscience.

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited August 05, 2004).]

Of course it's not the same. It still doesn't mean anything if Bush did fill his comittment (Not saying he did or didn't). Furthermore, there are other people out there who know a lot more about Vietnam than Kerry because they served more than 4 months in combat.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

yay people are being logical

it's just one side... it offers some facts, offers some opinions... It's just interesting... so is that F 9/11 thing.

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Saberopus: omfq musical genuis j00 >mozart
Thrawn42689: Mozart = n00b

Ok, so we can believe what McCain says regarding Kerry's service, and disbelieve what he says about Bush' service [or lack thereof]. Works for me i guess.

And i don't think that risking death and dismemberment is really a prerequisite for serving honorably in your position [not to necessarily say yes he did or no he didn't]. Though as pilots you /do/ risk that from your own equipment if nothing else, but that's not quite here nor there.

I read an article about Bush in the national guard, which mentioned the older planes and such. I found it interesting albeit a bit vague at times: http://www.nationalreview.com/babbin/babbin200402190855.asp

In other words, McCain doesn't seem all that reputable a source for you to cite as supporting Kerry's service record, if youre going to immediately dismiss half of what he says when it comes to Bush.

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[This message has been edited by Dormouse (edited August 05, 2004).]

"The new book UNFIT FOR COMMAND reveals dozens of shocking eyewitness accounts of questionable Kerry actions in Vietnam. Author John O'Neill, the man who took over John Kerry's Swift Boat, and co-author Jerome Corsi, Ph.D., have uncovered the bizarre truth behind Kerry's three Purple Hearts, his Bronze and Silver Stars, and the real reason Kerry served only four months in Vietnam."

Here is Chapter Three of that book

http://www.lasvegashomeland.com/obvious/UnfitCh3.pdf

EDIT: I'm not sure whether the book is just biased or even lying as I haven't researched his service record personally BUT it does give an alternative understanding of Kerry's persona in Vietnam.


[This message has been edited by Plasma Man (edited August 05, 2004).]

It can't show the whole picture. It's an ad. The book will most certainly address the facts of the matter. The important thing is that these are veterans that served with Kerry expressing their contradictory opinions of the man. I think it is disrespectful for people to condemn them for expressing their views just as I think it would be to do the same to those who are supporting Kerry. They've certainly earned the right to do so.



Bad man? That would be hard to believe. Bad president? That's a matter of opinion. The thing with Fahrenheit 911 is that it has been universally discreditted by not only the media but our own congressional and 911 hearings. Even those who enjoy the movie certainly must recognize that it is a political hit piece with the sole purpose of damaging the president



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Have you forgotten ...

actually only one of the swiftvet group served on Kerry's boat

interesting reading:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

I think this pretty much sums it up:

I could give a damn whether my President has served in the military or not. It does not factor at all in my analysis of a candidate. It is something that is built up way too much. Now, don't think I'm saying people in the military shouldn't get credit. I'm just saying in the Presidential race, I don't think it counts for jack.

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"This thread is still alive? Someone should kill it."

It might be a postive if the candidate had a military career and was a general/admirial or something like that, but serving for a bit after being drafted doesn't really mean a whole lot

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

THE PEOPLE DEMAND MCCAIN!

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Clarinetists, unite!

-writer of Bloodwing: Fallen Soldier
(no site up yet...)

A media based around 30 second sound bites will never give the full details of something as complicated as the stuff that goes through legislation. Bush's camp runs sound bites and catch phrases for Rush and the rest of the Right Wing big business owned radio talk jocks, plus anyone who'll report it on local affliates. When everyone else starts running with it, the AP is already on it, and that gives it status to everyone, regaurdless of political affliation, or attempt of nuetrality.

In this age of information, rumors become stories on the news in a nearly seemless flow.

Truth, my comrades, is all from a certain point of view.

So, in that case, please inform yourselves to form your own point of view.

Kak in 04!!!

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"If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?"

Screw it. Ron Paul for President.

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"Why aren't I'm using at these pictures?" - Cloud, 4/14/02

Yeah, except for that part where he edited the front page of a newspaper to make his point. Unlike some parts of the movie, this was not a "distortion" and it was not his opinion. It was a damn dirty lie. Why people continue to hold up this movie as "fundamentally true" or otherwise worthy of serious discussion I do not know.

As for Kerry, I think the flip-flop thing is somewhat overblown. It's partly the nature of the legislature (and why legislators generally do not win the Presidency) - Senators are expected to look at all sides of an issue in great detail and mull over their decisions. Their records change over time. Presidents are more often forced by expediency to make decisions quicker. There's nothing wrong with that.

However, I do think there is some truth to the accusation. When Kerry comes out in favor of the wall Israel is building around the West Bank to a pro-Israeli crowd and against it when speaking to Arabs, there is a problem. When he votes in favor of the war and rejects a bill that will pay for it (yeah, like in the Bush ad), there is a problem. And so on. Then there is the matter of his attitude towards business. At times he is pro free-trade (he was a strong proponent of NAFTA), and at times he rails against "Benedict Arnold" companies that send jobs overseas.

When accused by a reporter of a similar crime, J.M. Keynes quipped, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" Kerry rightly says the same. But given the choice between a man who cannot seem to stop rubbing his chin long enough to have a clear position on anything, and a man who has defined a good vision of how the world should be and shown he will pursue it, I will chose the latter. Always.

Here's the difference between flip-flopping and 'changing your mind'.

When you 'change your mind' you admit your mind was changed, whether it be from a new set of facts, or because you want to enact the people's will.

When you flip-flop you pretend that you've always had that position. You've always been against SUV's. You've always been against the war. The real enemy has ALWAYS been Eastasia.

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"Your entire base belongs to us."
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Fixxxed.


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"She turned me into a newt!"
Pause
"Well I got better..."

[/b][/QUOTE]

Not serving on the same boat actually places them in a more objective position to view Kerry, I believe. To say they weren't on the same boat makes it sound as if they didn't work together. Multiple boats often went on the same mission and worked in tandem. The crews were housed in the same place and the men would obviously know alot about each other. I'm not taking a stance on their claims but merely suggesting that it might be disingenuous to discredit them soley on the basis of not being on the same crew.

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Have you forgotten ...

Big difference between Free Trade and outsourcing jobs overseas.

I agree with the people who have stated as a senator you're supposed to look at all sides of an issue and make a decision based on the input of your constituents. Opinions change overtime as do the reasons behind making a vote. I would much rather have a president who would be open to different views than one who is stubborn and clings to the wrong course of action.

On a side note, Missouri passed the Gay Marriage Ban. It is true. Equality in America really does only apply if you hold the same Judeo-Christian morals as everyone else.

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free mp3 ~Jump - Young America

new album Between the Dim and the Dark available now

Because the primary driving force and deciding factor on gay marriage bans was Judeo-Christian morality of course..

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
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