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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → Star Wars Retrospective
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Star Wars Retrospective
2008-07-08, 10:51 AM #1
Game Trailers is doing a star wars retrospective right now, and the one they just released is about the Dark Forces games. Brings back a lot of memories.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/35912.html
"If you watch television news, you will know less about the world than if you just drink gin straight out of the bottle."
--Garrison Keillor
2008-07-08, 12:15 PM #2
I watched the Star Wars Retrospective series from the first video on GT, and I have to say they are fairly thorough. Which is surprising because a good handful of the SW games out there were crap and forgettable. I thought this was a good rundown of the Jedi Knight series. I also like how they mention JK's multiplayer was "plagued with lag and various technical glitches"... which was true, but certainly brought back memories, good and bad.

About the comment that Dark Forces used a "souped up version of Doom's code," isn't that still open to debate? What I mean was about the whole issue if whether or not LucasArts reversed-engineered the Doom engine. Still, I like how they mentioned small things such as the Dark Forces action figure and related content.
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
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2008-07-08, 1:26 PM #3
Shadows of the Empire next time.
2008-07-08, 1:46 PM #4
nice video.. definitely brings back memories
"Nulla tenaci invia est via"
2008-07-08, 4:58 PM #5
Dark Forces doesn't use a "souped up version of Doom's code." They may have reverse engineered some aspects, but they certainly never licensed it. It is also up for debate. I can't say for certain but, I don't think Doom was that technologically amazing, it was just the first. Rather, from a mathematics standpoint it wasn't anything special, although implementing it on the hardware of the time was a challenge, I'm sure.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-07-08, 7:26 PM #6
I didn't realize Dark Forces was that revolutionary for FPS games. I hope a new Dark Forces game will come sometime in the future. Hopefully it will have its own engine too much like Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith did. By the way, for some reason I didn't like the Fisher price like text of Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy.
2008-07-08, 7:33 PM #7
Fisher Price? what?
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2008-07-08, 7:43 PM #8
Originally posted by Emon:
Dark Forces doesn't use a "souped up version of Doom's code." They may have reverse engineered some aspects, but they certainly never licensed it. It is also up for debate. I can't say for certain but, I don't think Doom was that technologically amazing, it was just the first. Rather, from a mathematics standpoint it wasn't anything special, although implementing it on the hardware of the time was a challenge, I'm sure.


I think you are taking "version" too literally. It was a souped up version of a similarly designed engine/concept. And as far as how technologically amazing it or Doom may have been, that's all a matter of perspective. Wolfenstein was amazing back in those days and Dark Forces seem incredible compared to that.

Originally posted by Cloud:
I didn't realize Dark Forces was that revolutionary for FPS games. I hope a new Dark Forces game will come sometime in the future. Hopefully it will have its own engine too much like Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith did. By the way, for some reason I didn't like the Fisher price like text of Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy.



I'm with MB. Fisher Price what? As far as a new Dark Forces game, forget about it. What made Dark Forces special is no longer so. Both in terms of wonderfully new gameplay and storyline. What made Dark Forces storyline special was retconned out by its sequels.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-07-08, 7:56 PM #9
Originally posted by Wookie06:
It was a souped up version of a similarly designed engine/concept.

Then they should have said that. "Code" means literal, there's no other definition. If I say my car is a "souped up M3," I can never mean "A souped up design that is similar to an M3."

Originally posted by Wookie06:
I'm with MB. Fisher Price what?

He means the fonts used in the game. They were big, brightly colored and child-like. I think this was mostly because they used crappy low resolution bitmap fonts instead of bothering to ask a developer to skip his lunch hour and add TTF support.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-07-08, 7:57 PM #10
Ah, the memories. I remember playing DF when it came out, and I was SOOO excited...

Great find, 'stickz.
"Harriet, sweet Harriet - hard-hearted harbinger of haggis."
2008-07-08, 8:23 PM #11
Originally posted by Emon:
Then they should have said that. "Code" means literal, there's no other definition. If I say my car is a "souped up M3," I can never mean "A souped up design that is similar to an M3."


I was being generous. At a minimum, it was exactly as I described. If you believe, like many, that LEC reverse engineered the engine, then it was a souped up version of the [reverse engineered] code. Either way, it's silly to even argue semantics at this point.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-07-08, 9:11 PM #12
Yes, but you'll do it for five pages anyway because it's the internet.
2008-07-08, 10:29 PM #13
Well, it is Gametrailers.com we're talking about here, they've had a history of making inaccurate statements in past videos before. Just watching the video review of Guild Wars: Eye of the North was more than enough evidence to show how horrible they can be at getting things right. I've also noticed other errors in that retrospective such as referring to Yun as "yu" as them other stuff I can't recall at the moment.
The cake is a lie... THE CAKE IS A LIE!!!!!
2008-07-08, 11:16 PM #14
I watched all 6 today and enjoyed them.

I wouldn't mind seeing a new DF with the TFU engine, as long as it had multiplayer, guns, a PC version for modding, and no console exclusives.
2008-07-09, 12:02 AM #15
They didn't call him Yu, they called him Yun with a long u.
2008-07-09, 1:00 AM #16
Wow what a great video.

Man that brings back so many memories!

I forgot how much I liked the music in DF, awesome stuff.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2008-07-09, 3:15 AM #17
Ahhh memories.

Listening to unofficial dark forces soundtrack atm.
2008-07-09, 9:27 AM #18
Originally posted by SavageX378:
Well, it is Gametrailers.com we're talking about here, they've had a history of making inaccurate statements in past videos before. Just watching the video review of Guild Wars: Eye of the North was more than enough evidence to show how horrible they can be at getting things right. I've also noticed other errors in that retrospective such as referring to Yun as "yu" as them other stuff I can't recall at the moment.


Well, i was aware of Gametrailers TV but I really want to thank fishstickz for posting this. I never watched the show or went to the website before and yesterday I must have wasted 2-3 hours on that site. Reinstalled Xwing, Tie Fighter, JK, MotS, confirmed JO, JA, and XWA were installed while watching the shows! Oh, and I got DF working with DOSBox a couple weeks ago.

Another error that really caught my attention was when they were plugging the upcoming Shadows of the Empire episode they said it was based on a novel. The game was not based on the novel by the same name. It was an entire multimedia campaign with the game, novel, and comics all designed to tell the story from varying sides.

Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Yes, but you'll do it for five pages anyway because it's the internet.


Not me. I'm done with that topic and he was right, actually. Unless it really was completely reverse engineered and "souped up".
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-07-09, 11:13 AM #19
I thought it might be fun to replay XWA on hard, but it's impossible. Your wingman are too stupid to accomplish the mission goals.
COUCHMAN IS BACK BABY
2008-07-09, 2:15 PM #20
I've never finished that game. I was deep into Xwing and TIE fighter as well but never finished those, either. I think I was on the last or close to last XWing mission. I have really only scratched the surface of JA but have finished the rest of the DF/JK games.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-07-09, 2:22 PM #21
By just scratching the surface of JA, you pretty much got the whole experience.
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
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2008-07-09, 3:32 PM #22
Originally posted by Tracer:
I thought it might be fun to replay XWA on hard, but it's impossible. Your wingman are too stupid to accomplish the mission goals.


Depending on the mission, I order my wingmates home (this also applies to TIE, XvT/BoP). More kills for me :awesome:
$do || ! $do ; try
try: command not found
Ye Olde Galactic Empire Mission Editor (X-wing, TIE, XvT/BoP, XWA)
2008-07-09, 4:17 PM #23
By "Fisher Price-like text", I was referring to the ingame font of Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy. It was bubbly and large compared to JK and MotS, kind of like something you would see in a product related to Fisher Price.
2008-07-09, 8:27 PM #24
Originally posted by Wookie06:
If you believe, like many, that LEC reverse engineered the engine, then it was a souped up version of the [reverse engineered] code.

No, because reverse engineering means figuring out how it works and creating something similar, not decompiling it and building on top of it. It's not even possible to decompile assembly into usable C code. Literally, mathematically, impossible.

My point is that the guy didn't know what he was talking about and could have easily given people the wrong idea.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-07-09, 10:46 PM #25
Originally posted by Emon:
No, because reverse engineering means figuring out how it works and creating something similar, not decompiling it and building on top of it. It's not even possible to decompile assembly into usable C code. Literally, mathematically, impossible.

My point is that the guy didn't know what he was talking about and could have easily given people the wrong idea.


I only semantically disagree with the first part of your post and agree with the second part with the condition I previously posted. For the layman, however, these are all moot points.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-07-09, 11:17 PM #26
Originally posted by Cloud:
By "Fisher Price-like text", I was referring to the ingame font of Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy. It was bubbly and large compared to JK and MotS, kind of like something you would see in a product related to Fisher Price.


its understandable because there is that line of toddler warped-looking star wars toys out there

one of them Katarn at that
Holy soap opera Batman. - FGR
DARWIN WILL PREVENT THE DOWNFALL OF OUR RACE. - Rob
Free Jin!
2008-07-10, 1:52 AM #27
Aw it would've been cool if they mentioned Massassi or some of the more prominent JK mods in the short little blurb about mods ... there was the DF one and the JO one but no JK :(
一个大西瓜
2008-07-11, 8:53 AM #28
I've just watched them all, and unless I missed it, they've overlooked Rebel Assault and Rebel Assault 2.
"Harriet, sweet Harriet - hard-hearted harbinger of haggis."
2008-07-11, 10:05 AM #29
Or they'll do them later. This series isn't over yet.
Sorry for the lousy German
2008-07-11, 10:25 AM #30
There's going to be like 13 episodes or something.
"If you watch television news, you will know less about the world than if you just drink gin straight out of the bottle."
--Garrison Keillor
2008-07-11, 4:18 PM #31
No, that's the movies. 13 episodes. Woo hoo, almost halfway there! ;)
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-07-11, 4:22 PM #32
Originally posted by Chewbubba:
I've just watched them all, and unless I missed it, they've overlooked Rebel Assault and Rebel Assault 2.


Just out of curiousity, what did you think of those games? I could never bring myself to but RA because, despite the popularity, I always thought it was terrible. I really like RA2 because it really seemed like being in a Star Wars movie (12 years ago).
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-07-12, 5:47 AM #33
Originally posted by Wookie06:
Just out of curiousity, what did you think of those games? I could never bring myself to but RA because, despite the popularity, I always thought it was terrible. I really like RA2 because it really seemed like being in a Star Wars movie (12 years ago).


RA was one the first Star Wars game I played. I remember it was pretty hard controlling the ships, especially in the canyons, but it was still fun. It was Star Wars!
However, as soon as I got my hands on Dark Forces, RA remained in the jewel box...

I remember wanting to play RA2, but that never happened.
"Harriet, sweet Harriet - hard-hearted harbinger of haggis."
2008-07-12, 5:52 AM #34
RA was important for the entire computer industry. I know so many people who bought a CD-ROM drive just for playing RA and later RA2.
Some stores sold RA together with the drives.
Sorry for the lousy German
2008-07-12, 4:55 PM #35
I liked RA2. I didn't have a joystick, so I had a really difficult time getting past level 3.
COUCHMAN IS BACK BABY
2008-07-21, 8:16 PM #36
Resurrecting this thread because Episode 7 has been posted.

Dude doesn't sound like a big fan of KOTOR, and mentions some bugs with the game I never experienced. Of course, he played it on the Microsoft X-lax, whereas I played it on PC.

Besides Galaxies (which will be Ep. 8) and Rebel Assault 1 & 2, what Star Wars games are left to cover?
"Harriet, sweet Harriet - hard-hearted harbinger of haggis."
2008-07-21, 9:34 PM #37
They haven't done an episode on Yoda Stories or Star Wars Screen Entertainment yet.

I have no idea what bugs he found in KOTOR. Maybe some repetitiveness in dialogue but that really isn't a bug. I played the XBox versions so maybe the major bugs weren't mostly present there. I did get stuck somehow in K2 and haven't felt like restarting to see if I could get past that point. You know, if you put a game down for long enough, you basically have to restart to remember what going on.

Anyways, thanks for the update. I tired of checking the site for the new episode. I can't believe the next one is all about Galaxies. Seems like five to ten minutes max to cover that game.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-07-21, 9:37 PM #38
He also made no mention of how rushed the ending of KOTOR2 felt/was.
"Harriet, sweet Harriet - hard-hearted harbinger of haggis."
2008-07-21, 9:48 PM #39
Yeah, that was the biggest issue of the time although you could infer from his statements about the short time Obsidian had. I remember some discussion about how some of the unfinished material was present on the PC CD-ROM but when I recently searched about that to see if any custom patches were developed to incorporate the material I found no mention.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-07-22, 4:14 AM #40
Originally posted by Chewbubba:

Besides Galaxies (which will be Ep. 8) and Rebel Assault 1 & 2, what Star Wars games are left to cover?


Star Wars-themed Monopoly game.
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
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