After a discussion with a couple of my roommates, it sounds like some of the Leviticus stuff was law at certain points until Jesus or Peter decreed that the specific rules were not in effect any more (like dietary restrictions). So they're there in the Bible, but it is just a documentation of past laws? Can anyone corroborate this?

This is kind of unrelated--it's prompted from being submerged in political ****e over the past few years--but it's about the positions of politicians (like Obama, McCain) on gay marriage versus civil union

I think the "traditionalists," that is, those who think civil union should be allowed but gay marriage prohibited, are totally misguided. That civil union should be granted to gays is obvious, because it's flatly discriminatory to withhold from gays certain rights heterosexual married couples enjoy. However, whether it should be called civil union or marriage is splitting hairs. Traditionalists should concede the point and allow it to be called marriage because the government isn't where the real contention lies. Government, after all, shouldn't explicitly preserve or prefer tradition (or traditional terminology)--no matter how universal--just as it shouldn't any culture. The only thing it should are human rights.

The real contention for traditionalists lies with the religious denominations or places of worship fundamentally incompatible with homosexuality (at least as they see it) that nonetheless acknowledge the marriages.

Concerning Christianity, I think traditionalists may have a case, because I'm not sure that Christianity permits homosexuality, especially considering what it expressly does permit is morally inferior to celibacy. I can actually see how the argument that "doomed" homosexuals are supposed to rectalfy themselves through celibacy might make sense, even if casts doubt on the infinite mercy/justice/etc of God.

At the very least I think the implication that "picking and choosing" somehow invalidates anything is stupid. Yes, it might illustrate to some fundamentalists that they aren't literal literalists, but it doesn't mean homosexuality isn't wrong--prohibition of homosexuality could easily be one of the "right" things to take from the bible along with the golden rule, belief in Jesus as savior, etc.

I won't get into theology arguments for or against homosexuality, but I'd like to mention that a lot of theological arguments--let's be honest, a ****ton of cultural and moral arguments--are justifications guided by blind stupid emotion. Many traditionalists think traditions should be preserved simply because, for whatever biological reason, they feel it should be. Tradition is comforting. Likewise most people who dislike homosexuality dislike it simply because they think it's icky. Two dudes doing each in other in the poopchute is a discomforting thought. That God dislikes it is an ancillary, comforting coincidence. On the other hand, if everyone liked homosexuality (but the Bible still condemned it), these exact same people would find ways to justify its acceptance.

Not to say that morality shouldn't be based around emotion--morality is fundamentally about emotion. However, blind emotion shouldn't dictate morality.

I actually wrote more of this but I'll cut it short because I know only two people will bother reading this anyway, one of them SF_Gold

The article does a decent job of showing that people don't usually get their morals from their religious texts & thank goodness for that. Old Testament anyone?

"Religion is far more of a choice than sexuality."
<3 John Stewart

Also: Can you imagine a debate this civilized ever happening on the O'Reilly show?

About a month ago I went to a talk by Reverend Mel White.

One of my friends recorded it, and I think it would be well worth watching for anyone with questions about what the bible actually says on the matter.

In seven parts, beginning:


For some reason it's showing no longer available from the embed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGrKwebWmco

There's a verse in the apocalypse part of the bible that talks of gay couples getting together before the end times.

Like I give a **** though.

I'm not going to say much more, but when you say homosexual orientation is genetic, are you referring to Dean Hamer's work?

For starters, this work is a theory, that is widely disputed and in 1999 people had concluded there was no link between homosexual orientation and Xq28.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xq28 (too lazy to do things right)

Whats more, an assistant who worked with him claims that he falsified his research.

There is a lot of controversy surrounding his work, which makes it at best, questionable.

Haha, that's actually not a bad idea

Do you have a reference for this?

And Gold, I've never heard of that research. However, there ARE physical differences in the brains of heteros and homos, which would imply genetic or developmental causes...



More here too: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html?feedId=online-news_rss20

Or just google "gay brains."

Now that is actually a convincing theory Vin. Thank you for posting this.

The real question is, how many straight men are there that have a similar brain? Also, do all gay people have a brain like this? I will look into this matter, but for now, I think that this is a good lead.

EDIT:

That article is actually very interesting... I think I'm starting to get convinced!

Shocking... never thought I'd see the day coming!

OH NOES! VINNY IS TURNING US GEY ONE BY ONE! JUST LIKE MY CHURCH TOLD ME!!!11

I don't actually know the verse, I don't read the bible

My mom read it to me yesterday when I asked about it. It struck me by surprise when she actually found something :S

You could just read through the ending part of the bible, it's there somewhere

Oh yes... now I am gay.

These threads always bring out the weirdos.

This thread just got really boring. Actually, I just don't have the will to argue anymore, I have to force myself to argue, I'd rather talk about something interesting. Alas, the interesting topic which I wish to speak of has eluded my mind.

I didn't even realize we were arguing... you said you don't support gayness but think gays should be allowed to marry, right? That's 100% acceptable to me.

PS: Every post you've made on this thread except one, you've said you're not gonna post anymore.

I wouldn't be any fun now then would I?

you mean homos?

I was wondering if someone was going to say that.

Hmm, well let us see.

I will make a post that will make people flame me! We must get an interesting topic!

So, essentially...

after going into the "gay brains" theory... I realized, it is only an influence. I got to thinking, how many straight feminent men I know, and guess what? I know quite a few. Some more than others. How many gay men I know that are feminent? Most of them. I also know a few men who are VERY macho like and are gay.

The article suggest that men who are born with feminent traits are automatically gay. This is not the case.

I have to admit, that I know no lesbian girls, just a couple bisexual girls. Lesbians seem to have avoided social cirlce.

So it all boils down to choice, however this is a choice that most people never make consciously. This is why I was wrong by comparing to any other preference, because we control most of that.

The problem is, our sexuality is usually chosen by the influences and environment that surround us. A trauma (for both straight and gay people) that I'm sure is very hard to break.

I've got to thinking, to how I started my "sexuality" if you will.

It started in sex education.

Until that point, (I was like 11 or 12) I had no real idea what sex was, and it never interested me. The changes in my body I hadn't payed attention to.

It was then when I started noticing the opposite sex as something different than just a friend, or someone who's bugging you all day long.

Things changed, forever.

Of course, we'll go into something that most straight people will never tell you, but since I've read it in various books, I will come forward with it, as I'm not ashamed of it, nor proud of it. It just is.

When your body is going through puberty, you have erotic dreams. If you didn't have them, than I feel bad for you.

I had dreams with girls, and all that yes. But I also had homosexual dreams. Does this mean I am gay?

I remember feeling really bad about it, confused, scared, and what not.e

I looked it up, read up about it, and found out it was perfectly normal.

I guess that people who become homosexual, for whatever reasons, might feel the other way around.

I wouldn't know for sure, I'm not gay.

I'm not saying that gay people can easily choose their sexual orientation, I'm just saying that their choice is heavily influenced by things that are out of their control.

It still remains, a choice.

That's exactly what I always thought it was.

Either way, the statement of men who were born with feminent traits are automatically gay is definitely incorrect. Ask anyone who knows me and they'll all tell you that I'm much, much more feminine than any of them could have ever been. I don't have the gay tone (not often), but I do have several traits, I won't get into them though.

I do know one gay guy, he never had any successful relationship with a women, they were usually always total ****es. His father was also much less of a figure for him to look up to, as it was his mom who would, literally, run everything. The same goes for my parents (although not to the same extent), which to me would explain the more feminine personality that I'm made of. That may not have anything to do with it, just an observation.

Another little observation that I noticed was that he clung a lot more to his father for emotional support. As far as I know (feel free to disprove me), most men (straight men, anyway) looked to their mothers for emotional support when they were children (this doesn't include people who had no mothers.) Most women looked to their fathers for said comfort. Anyone I've ever known who did otherwise, turned out to be gay.

Anyway, just me thinking out loud.

I want to make sure you know this: You are really, really bad at science.



Yeah, not liking women will do that.

being fem != being gay

Holy Return key and comma splice batman.

Congrats Gold, you made a post no-one can be bothered reading.
Oh, and agreed on the you being really, really bad at science thing

Hey, it was late, and I don't get much sleep anymore.

The very words I live by.

To tell you the truth, I am amazed that you can agree with me. This is a day to be long remembered. A member of massassi did not disagree with me.

I disagree with that long post. If that's what you mean.

@ vin: Nobody's perfect.

@ thread: you make me have gay dreams!

hahahaha! my devious plan is coming to fruition!

pfft.

Your plan? It was my idea...