The free market is too often abused by evil men to conceal their sins.

And government programs are squeaky clean utopian constructs?

No but its better than hoping for kindness from others. How many third world kids are starving to death each day again?

I'm talking about you, by the way.

CM, and how many charities do you know that feed starving children...or try to anyway? The point is that it's not my responsibility, it's a choice to help people.

Jon, I only vaguely understand. Please explain.

I know that's your point. I'm saying relying on charitability won't ever cut it in this world. There are far too many in need and far too few who want to help.

Then I guess that's the difference between you and me. I believe primarily in liberty, and you believe primarily in security.

Like Lord Kuat, you're trying to conceal your profound belief in Social Darwinism behind the menacing gesticulations of the Invisible Hand. Whether you're consciously aware of it or it's a form of cognitive dissonance, I find it ghastly.

Edit:
No, absolutely not: at its essence, liberty is the right to have and enjoy your own life. You don't believe in liberty, you believe in yourself and your own interests. It's a convenient lie because you have such limited needs of society.

See, I believe in society.

Tell me, why should anyone be entitled to an education?

I don't have a "profound belief in social darwinism", nor am I trying to conceal anything. You just want to read meaning into something when there is no deeper meaning. Sometimes the world sucks. Get over it. The best I can do is look out for myself and try to be a good person. I don't want to try to fix the world so that nothing bad ever happens to anyone and everyone is full of giggles and sunshine. I'm not about to give up my own personal liberty in an attempt to reach an impossible ideal. If you find that ghastly, then be aghast all you want.




We shouldn't be. I don't think anyone is entitled to an education. But it's a good thing, and it should be a priority to educate yourself.

And what does "i believe in society" mean? You mean it's important to have a society? It's pretty hard not to.

Yes, you do have a profound belief in Social Darwinism. If your protestations are to be believed, your belief in Social Darwinism has been hammered into you from such a young age that you aren't even aware of it.

And suggesting that you would help someone you know if they were in a hard place, spoken like every racist ever justifying their opinion with "some of my best friends are blacks?" Icing, man. Icing on the sociopathic cake. You believe your responsibilities do not exist, unless it affects you personally. People like you are why it's illegal to drive around without liability insurance.

A five second Google search tells me the average per-student annual cost is $11,000 in Detroit.

How many people living in Detroit do you suppose can afford $11,000 a year to send their child to school? What do you think the long term social costs are going to be if the primary and secondary drop-out rates in Detroit reach the near 100% they almost surely would?


I asked this before, although perhaps not in this thread: What do you think the long-term social impact will be, for all of the uninsured obese Americans who are not receiving early preventative care, when they require acute care and will be forced to take out multiple mortgages on their properties? What's going to happen when these people declare bankruptcy, or when the government inherits their heir-less estates? Mandatory health insurance will end up costing you less, personally, than the alternative. We've already established that you're motivated solely by selfishness, so this should be an easy sell to you. What's the hold-up?

So I suppose you're such a good person because you know exactly how everyone should think and live, huh? And anyone who disagrees with you is evil and despicable? You want to further your ideals at the cost of my rights? And I'm the sociopath?

And no, I don't see liberty as the right to enjoy life. I see it as the right to TRY to enjoy life without people telling you in what way to do so.

You're right, I'm not a genius, I can't predict every possible social or economic impact. But I'd rather be dirt poor with my liberty than a middle class slave.

"I know you are but what am I," ceased to be an effective retort in elementary school. Spare me the tedium.

And, of course, it just so happens that you were born with the advantages that allow you to try. Too bad, Little Timmy here was born 6 weeks premature to poor uninsured tourists. Oh well, he was destined for the oven anyway!

A decent person would never commit murder. Why do we need all these liberty-constricting laws to tell us decent people not to?

So we can decide if a person is decent or not.

Sorry if yelled too loud at your ivory tower, Jon. I'm just glad you can hear me up there.

Yeah, I was born with advantages. I wasn't born rich, though. You don't have to have anything in this world to TRY to have a good life. My dad was born to a poor couple in Canada. And I mean poor poor. Like "i hope we have enough money for food this week" poor. Now he's an american citizen with a great job, and his success is what gets me by. Because guess what? I work ****ty hours for minimum wage. I (myself) am completely ridiculously poor. But I'm lucky that my dad worked so hard to get where he is so he can help me try to be as successful as he is.

Long story short: You den't have to be born lucky to TRY to live a good life.

How droll.

Yes you do: By your own assertions, to have a good life in America, you have to be born with the ability to not constantly generate enormous medical bills.

I didn't say you'd be guaranteed to have a good life. I said you can TRY. If you want guarantees, you're living in the wrong universe.

Man if only people with cystic fibrosis wanted it enough they'd be cured

Essentially you're just trolling now. We're done. Just because you try doesn't mean you succeed. If you want everyone to succeed all the time, then like I said: you're living in the wrong universe.

I saw something on an earlier post, something about "its ok to let some insurance companies fall"...

ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME? ITS OK TO INCREASE UNEMPLOYMENT?

Just answer that!

Like the current number of unemployed people need their employment opportunities to lower and their competition to increase.

What's so great about private insurance?

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik3-2009aug03,0,6650122.column?track=rss

Ah yes, "life ain't fair," the essential credo of the Social Darwinist.

What, got nothing else? But we're so close to hearing you confess that disabled people deserve to die.

I knew you were retarded. Just not this retarded.

18,000 deaths blamed on lack of insurance.

More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care, researchers report in a landmark study released Tuesday.

That's nothing compared to the millions who freeze to death every winter in Canada while waiting in line outside government hospitals. Many people don't know this, but before socialized medicine, Canada's population was almost equal to that of the United States. That is no longer the case.

millions freezing to death in a queue outside of hospitals?

millions?

in a queue outside of hospitals?

If there are actually queues outside of Canadian hospitals, that's not a problem with public healthcare, rather a problem with general stupidity. But I'm sure you just made all that up, I imagine you'll probably say that it was all just a figure of speech.

Fun fact: Canadian free healthcare predates the declaration of independence. It's one of Canada's proudest traditions.


I think it was a joke.

With some people, of a carpy nature, it's very hard the tell the difference between jokes and dumbness.

ok jon'c i know you are having fun pushing bob ever so close to the brink here, but lets back up.

equating his views with thinking that "disabled people deserve to die." is really ridiculous. at least in the U.S. you have the right to life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. you are not guaranteed happiness or a happy life.

i honestly believe that people are responsible for themselves, but does this mean i dont think people should help each other? of course not. i try to help as much as i am able to. when i can i give to charities, and relief organizations. i even try to volunteer sometimes.

regardless of how i personally feel about helping your fellow man, i think it is absolute horse **** to say "because for whatever reason you seem to be better off than john doe, you are now obligated to help provide for him."

i dont think bob is nearly as "if people cant cut it then they should die and decrease the surplus population!" as you are trying to make him out to be... feel free to correct me if i am wrong bob. i think he is saying that if people are able to help their fellow man they should but it should be of their own conviction, and not a mandate by the government.

and over 400,000 deaths attributed to smoking

car crashes kill upwards of 40,000 every year in the u.s.

drowning? anywhere from 3,000 - 6,000

as many as 200,000 deaths attributed to medical malpractice.

where are you going with the number of deaths bit?

If you look at the big picture, health care concerns in the US are not the problem. They are indicators of larger problems. Instead of trying to fix the symptoms, people not having access to affordable health care, maybe we should look at lifting people up so that they are able to afford more of everything.

CoolMatty, I sympathize with anyone who has to struggle with health and medical problems but by your own admission it sounds like you have received the treatment you needed. I know that it must be stressful trying to acquire insurance coverage that is suitable for you and that certainly is the type of thing that needs to be addressed but embarking down an economicly unsound path on a system that will essentially destroy much of the private sector by further raising taxes on the few that pay them, raising the cost of goods for everyone, and driving down future pay and employment opportunities for American workers might not be the right way to go.

ps - Jon'C is a left wing Canadian? I'll take him far less seriously from now on when it comes to matters of import to Americans.

I am no more left wing than you are educated and of good breeding.

Damn, joncy's a communist.

This somewhat reminds me of another previously hostile left winger on TACC who once insulted my parents as well. Of course, he appologized to me and we eventually became friends, of a sort. Haven't talked to him in ages though.

You'd fit right in with 18th century factory owners. You just need to read some history, you need to read WHY socialism was such a powerful force in 19th century politics and economics (regardless of whatever connotations it has for you now) and why every single modern economy incorporates elements of socialism today, some even protected in the Universal Declartion of Human Rights.

Your utopia of free pursuit of liberty within a free market economy has already been tried, and it failed horrifically. Read some history, find out what life was like BEFORE you were entitled to an education, and you'll see why.

I BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY

You must have missed the post where I said that every form of medical healthcare that exists in this world right now is terrible. Even Canada and Britain's national healthcare systems are sorely lacking in many areas, often contributed to the idea that the government has final say as to whether you get the treatment you need, not what some cheap nearby doctor says you need. For those with less mainstream (but altogether still large group of) conditions, seeing a local doctor unaware of the condition can result in a battle lasting years, usually ending with the person paying out of pocket for services their health system should have guaranteed.

Meanwhile, in the USA, we have some of the brightest doctors, but no one can afford to see them, because insurance companies won't cover the people, and no one can afford it. Oftentimes the conditions are even treatable, leading to normal lives, but only if they are treated.

I was lucky in my situation for many reasons:

1. My grandfather, who had custody of me (and did so for this reason immediately after birth), was a Cincinnati Firefighter. This means he had good healthcare coverage through the government, and they couldn't turn me away. And yes, they tried, very hard, even went to court.
2. My pediatrician actually knew what my condition was right away, and knew who to refer me to.
3. I was also lucky in a way to live in Cincinnati for Children's Hospital, one of the top ranked hospitals in the world. In that hospital was one of the premier surgeons that dealt with my condition.
4. I've continued to be lucky since, as Children's Cincinnati kept surgeons on staff that actually knew my condition and how to work with it. Even now I still go back just for the current Chief of Surgery there. There are more doctors that know my condition, and can treat it, in the USA, than there are in every other country combined. This isn't unusual.
5. I had my grandmother. She fought tooth and nail even on my grandfather's insurance to get my various required surgeries covered. She spent HOURS and HOURS on the phone arguing with whoever it took to get the job done. It's only gotten worse in recent years.

Now of course, my luck has run out. With my age I can no longer be on my grandfather's insurance. I can't go on medicare unless I wish to somehow find a way to live on $900/month. I can't pick up my grandfather's insurance, they won't take me because of my preexisting condition. Period. No exceptions, no amount of money, not even catastrophic. Other insurance could be found, but only for amounts totally at least $400/m a month for the bare minimum (barely catastrophic), or up to $1000/m for more. Still won't cover my condition. I can't pick up insurance at simply any company. If the company is too small, my abnormally high rates would result in everyone else in the company taking a large paycut to pay off the price. and thus the company would ask that I not take the insurance. Getting a steady job in some of the large corporations, one of the few places that promises actual full insurance is like a chance in hell, especially with this market.

The worst part of it is, my condition is under control. I don't take medication for it, I don't need various maintenance tests, the only things I ever need is bandages (which I already pay out of pocket at a cost of nearly $300/m), and a yearly visit to earlier mentioned surgeon to make sure I'm doing okay.

I need the insurance for the same thing anyone else does. In case I suddenly need surgery for something, like if my skin breaks down and an open wound develops. Does it mean it'll happen? No. Is it even highly likely? No. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I was pretty sure that the entire purpose of insurance was to cover a possible risk.

I could rant on this crap all day, but at the end of the day, I don't know the best way to fix it, all I know is what everyone is doing now sucks.

I appreciate your story, insight, and concluding comments in your post.

I think we can all agree on certain types of reform that should be done now. Unfortunately, I believe the type of reform being sought after mainly by one party is designed to systematically destroy the current system and incrementally impose a nationalized system. I think that is the wrong approach.

Exactly what you need pretty sums up some of the key things I think need to be addressed for everyone. You have a situation that is under control and requires a reasonable amount of money money to maintain. We should do everything possible to encourage personal financial growth so that people can afford basic medical expenses. You have a situation that makes getting reasonable insurance cost prohibitive and that needs to be addressed.

Of course the short comments above are not supposed to be my proposed solution, merely a couple of values that I think are important parts of a solution.

And [not directed at CM] if you think health care is expensive now, just wait until everyone gets "free" cradle to grave health care.