I go to a very conservative Christian school, even though I myself am closer to the middle of the spectrum, with a liberal slant. The problem is, I'm too liberal for the conservatives and too conservative for the liberals. Anyway, I love this school, the students, the teachers, the curriculum, but to put it quite frankly, I've just had enough of how close-minded everybody is. I have some very intelligent friends but they are all so close-minded it's unbelievable.

I have to be very careful about what I say around people, because if I so much as say anything "anti-war" (and thus "unpatriotic") or "Bush might not be the best guy for the job" I'm instantly hammered into the ground by a barrage of zealous anger and frustration. It doesn't help that I'm originally from England, and still have an accent, so people often assume I'm running down there country and telling them all how to run it. It's so depressing, when you present all these facts and reasons for why Bush might have messed up. I'm not saying Kerry is perfect, but after all that's happened, he's bound to do a better job.

I personally don't like Kerry a great deal, but I'd rather him than Bush. The thing is, both sides are really terrible at the moment, the political campaigns of both are scheming, mud-slinging propaganda and it's really sad that it comes down to this. The problem is, too much emphasis is placed on money and not enough on the ability of the candidate. You could be a brilliant and proven speechwriter, rhetorician, political leader with strong support and well-rounded views, but if you don't have the funds, the Whitehouse is an impossible dream.

I try to maitain an open mind about things. I watched some of the Democratic convention, and I intend to watch some of the Republican convention, but I'm not going to go around and bash what everyone said. But some of my friends are so ignorant of the facts. They listen to people like Rush Limbaugh, complain about the media's liberal slant, and wouldn't watch a Dem give a speech if he was the last man on earth. It just pains me, it really does.

How does someone expect to criticize someone and(or) their believes, if they have no understanding or concept of them whatsoever.

It's as if, unless a medium in the media has "Bush" or "Republican" branded over it, it's not worth even istening to. It mkaes me so sad when people run something down for the sake of a laugh or for the sake of one, rigid view, when they really don't know much about it.

I don't want to come across as hypocritical, so I'll just say, I'm only 16, in 10th grade, and there are so many things in these regards I know nothing of. But I want to make sure I don't make the smae mistake these people are making: judging something based on their rigid, unshakable beliefs and not on facts or competency.

This country has gone to war for a very uncertain and shaky cause, and even now, after the official "end to hostilities" more people have died since before the war ended and billions are being eaten up like pancakes. Iran is more of a threat than Iraq.

Also, this whole Vietnam deal is really very misled. Kerry may not be a war hero, but he's still entitled to speak out against war atrocities. People are so deluded if they believe that NO innocents were raped/murdered in Vietnam. It's not something personal against the U.S., it's a simple fact of war - when nations go to war, any nation, anywhere on the planet, obscenities and atrocities are bound to happen. There are bad apples in every barrel. Is Kerry saying that every Vietnam war veteran is a murderer/rapist? No, of course not. But there is not denying that in the spur of the moment, when people are beserk, pumped on drugs, or depressed, innocents are the victims of oppression. People should be allowed to express their oppinions, well not even oppinions, actual ACCOUNTS OF REAL, LIFE WAR without fear of retribution from their comrades and country. It's sad that people are this easily turned off by others.

I find it very frightening when people make such a big deal about freedom of speech when, if you say something they disagree with, you're branded as unpatriotic. THe Patriot act is even more frightening. Even the name overflows with propaganda. I'm sorry, but that makes me very wary and concerned about the future in this country.

I don't mean to rant, but I'm truly very depressed about it. Maybe you guys are all going to bash me about this, but I'd like to know if anyone else out there on Massassi felt this way. I wish I could make a difference.

So in conclusion, does nyone know of anything I could say to my piers to get them to at least consider what I'm saying? If so, please suggest some websites or articles or techniques, or even share experiences.

All that I wish is people would harness they're intelligence and think outside the box, look beyond there political bias, and examine a situation or peron based on what they've done, not on who's side they're on. Thankyou.

Who cares, they dont have to consider what your saying if they dont want. People can make their own opinions on things, they will listen if they want, but if their mind is made up, why bother?

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ZGPC

I know how you feel, and it's why I'm a democrat. Most likely I would have been a republican if we had a DECENT (fine, IMO, :rolleyes republican president in office. I hold to some liberal ideals, but a lot of times I could swear I'm a republican.

Unfortunately, I hate bush, and I think he's doing a horrible job. That's why I support kerry--not so much because kerry's a GREAT GUY, but because he seems to me to be a helluvalot better than Bush. But trust me, I've read the propaganda from both sides. So far the only things anybody can say against Kerry is that he was in Vietnam and won 2 purple hearts practically on accident, didn't even damage himself, and the third one was awarded for something which really did hurt him. Also he's the head of a ketchup industry.

Then there's the "flip-flop" lies, which make it seem like Kerry jumps to completely opposite spectrums of the same argument. He doesn't. A lot of the times he'll change his mind, which every human has a God-given right to do, or decline a SIMILAR bill to one he supported because there are things that he doesn't like on there...but I seriously see no problems with anything he's done.

And some of my friends are like this too, only with Bush. I agree that I don't like Bush, but I don't agree with all the BAD crap said about him. I don't agree with everything Michael Moore's said (though watch Canadian Bacon again, it's almost like Moore can tell the future), and I think that Bush hasn't done all bad. Just mostly bad.

All-in-all, I've listened to both sides of the argument, and believe more strongly in the Democratic side, this time.

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Move north.

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

Kerry lacks a real personality. He's a total liar and a [Expletive deleted -DSettahr]. That's why I'd not want him in office. I support businesses at home. I plan to push around businesses with my presidential power despite the fact that my wife owns a ketchup business that outsources jobs.

Vote for me because I was in Vietname. Despite the fact that his history there is extremely unreliable from his viewpoint. Not only that but he feels so opposite compared to most. After the horrors of war and Vietname I don't think many soldiers came back cheering for American pride and patriotism. But he has medals and Bush doesn't, of course that makes him fit to be president, nevermind the accuracy.

Kerry supports the little guy, that's why he makes so many false promises, save them from the oppressor. The war in Iraq was a horrible mistake and Bush will only continue to screw things up. Oh yea, and by the way I'll just keep troops there and maybe send even more people over. This time it isn't sending them to their deaths like that crook Bush did though, because I'm sending them there to safety because I love our proud nation. More men to Iraq!

I could go on, but I have English and I spend too much time here already. Forgetta bout it...

[This message has been edited by DSettahr (edited August 26, 2004).]

Personally, I think we're screwed either way

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

I can sympathize. I typically hang with a group that maintains the mentality of "everything Bush says and does is a horrible, horrible thing, and Kerry can do no wrong." Thus, I have to silently endure constant praise for Kerry's perfection and maintain my silence for fear of being assaulted by close-minded open-mindedness.

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

I change my mind. He is right.

It would help immensely if the ketchup easily came out of those damn glass bottles w/o being shaken a million times...

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I have found that you can transform your character solely by the power of belief: as you believe yourself to be, so you shall become over time.


[This message has been edited by Pagewizard_YKS (edited August 27, 2004).]

I haven't read barely any of this thread yet... (probably will later), but...
I know exactly how you feel..

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Now you know how conservative-tilting people feel going to liberal arts colleges

YOU = GOD.



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"If there's one thing I've learned it's this - you just can't shake hands with a fist" - David Allen Coe

Nodnod.

And then at the same time there are the people around whom the very slightest thing which could be taken as praise/affirmation of Bush/his term/whatever, ie "having somewhat suspect public speaking skills doesn't necessarily make one a moron/unfit for presidency" turns into a blistering tirade of flaming and "omg you horrible person how could you possibly support and want him to continue and have the babies of this awful murdering lying president.."

I keep wanting to ask someone to explain the apparent incongruency the next time they go off about how obviously moronic/idiotic/hairless-apeish Bush is, then practically in the same breath talk about how evil and seditious and insidious and sneaky and underhanded and conniving and dirty and masterminding he is in all these conspiracies and plots and so forth. However i've refrained so far, as i am somewhat worried about being within the blast radius of an imploding cranium.

None of which is to say i support Bush or his actions really, however i am a ******* and tend to debate the opposite side of an issue particularly when the person debating is doing a poor job or making inconsistent points.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"That's why we had to beat you with tennis rackets".
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

I'm with Dor. And at least we have a SHOT with Kerry. We already know how Bush is going to do.

Consequently, unemployment jumped 1 million people unemployed from 2002 to 2003.

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Do your country a favour, vote for a third party candidate.

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In soviet Russia, thread posts YOU!

Tru using a plastic bottle.

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Wise men say that fools rush in where angels fear to tread, so look before you leap, so to speak, because the grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill.

Kerry is bad dude, and a liar, his closest friends have said that. Bush, he just wants everything running soomthly, because were all a circle, and if one piece goes somewhere, we'll all suffer. Look terrorists attacked the U.S. not the U.S. them. I think you've been watching 9/11 Fareingheight too much.

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"Computer are useless, all they can give you are answers"/Pablo Piacasso

Closest friends? They're friggin army buddies from a long, long time ago in his life. I'll admit he's changed his opinions, but he's far from a liar. And what the hell are you talking about "terrorists attacked the U.S. not the U.S. them". Of course the U.S. didn't attack Afghanistan, or any of those other countries. In fact we helped Afghanistan at one point in time. But that's not pertinent to the subject.

I'll believe Bush wants things to go smoothly when a snowball dangles in the pit of hell.

I already said Fahrenheit 9/11 wasn't entirely, or even mostly true. Me and all my Kerry-favoring friends (the ones that aren't Democrat zealots) agree on that. But a lot of questions about Bush have been brought up. Including those of him passing bills for his family's friends (they're friends with quite a LOT of movers and shakers in the world, so-to-speak.)

But like I said, it's an opinion, and the only time I say someone's opinion is wrong is when they're misinformed.

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It amuses me how being "unpatriotic" is immediately and thoughtlessly seen to be a "bad" thing. Perhaps the US needs more 'unpatriotic' people. Perhaps that's what all countries need.

I assume people use "unpatriotic" because it sounds like a strong word. Many times, people say that at an opinion, not because it "goes against the country's values" or whatever, but because it goes against a personal opinion. :/

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Snail racing: (500 posts per line)

---------@%

The Massassi JO/JA Single Player contest info (I don't know why I have this still in my sig)

I couldn't imagine being prouder of my country. I couldn't imagine loving my country more. I couldn't imagine living anywhere but the U.S.

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I respect John Kerry and George Bush for the human beings that they are, equally. When a person becomes the president or leader of a country, he is expected to lead that nation based on his beliefs; and that's exactly what George Bush is doing. He attacked Iraq because he truly believed Saddam Hussein and his followers were a major threat to the safety of the United States. The problem is, it's quite obvious that most of the people in the United States disagree with Bush. And they have plenty of justifying facts and questions to back them up. For example, why did president Bush order a war on Iraq (well, "war on terror", to be formal ) when he knew America was in a [perverbial] financial abyss? The answere: he believed Iraq was a threat.
The United States of America was and is based and built on beliefs; we all have to remember that.
I'm affraid that, if he is elected again, George Bush will take this war only further, possibly attacking other countries neighboring Iraq, such a Syria. I have a very dear friend in Syria, and that is why I support John Kerry. I believe he can get America out of this mess.
Another problem, IMO, is that there is so much damn finger pointing that the whole goal of being the president is becoming lost in the midst of it.

The views stated above are all in my opinion.

- Delphian

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"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm."

- Winston Churchill

[This message has been edited by Delphian (edited August 27, 2004).]

nm. -_-


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The easiest way to kill a soldier is to make his commanding officer a politician.

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited August 27, 2004).]

That doesn't mean you still have to follow those beliefs. It was 200 years ago.

I really like how Jefferson believed in a revolution every 20 years. He was my kind of president.

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Roach - Gyring and gimbling in the wabe...
0 of 14.

I blame everything on the party-system.

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"Windows [n.]
A thirty-two bit extension and GUI shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a four bit microprocessor and sold by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."

If you're not American, I advise you to stop typing. Now. Because it's extremely hard for someone who doesn't live here/wasn't born here to understand.

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How do people draw that conclusion? Most of the things in that film that he claimed, he had evidence, papers, interviews, videos, pictures all that good stuff. I really don't think Moore lied or stretched the truth. He says 'Bush did this and that' then he goes 'Here is papers proving this, and here is a video proving that'.



Wow, uh...no. He seems to know the history of the U.S. and the current situation...He said "That doesn't mean you still have to follow those beliefs. It was 200 years ago." and he's right... Even if he knew nothing about america, thats still valid. It was 200 years ago, he is saying we don't HAVE to live in the past.

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(>º_º)> ±h³ ѳv³®-£ⁿd¡תּ9 §±ºr¥ <(º_º< ) | (>º_º)> תּℓζ ШǿѓЖ§|-Юρ <(º_º< )

[This message has been edited by SAJN_Master (edited August 29, 2004).]

Yeah right. I'm sorry to newsflash you, but people who live in other countries often know alot more about america than your average american.

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

Flexor is the perfect example of someone pretending to be important and knowledgable, but we all know the truth.

For example, The South...

"What colors yer daddy's tractor?"
"My daddy shot dis gator, and dat gator was right there! My daddy..."
"Hu-Yuck, Whats Amerka?"
"George Washington? Wusnt he some kinda wrestler?"
"Aberham Linkin signed the decloration of congress which stated that all blacks belong to the south!"

The first two are actual things I heard while in Georgia, the rest are just my hick impressions But yeah the South is scary. I enjoyed Virginia and Florida, but some of the people in the South you wonder how they remember to breathe..

Anyway, if you're from the south, don't take offense, unless you know you're a hick

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(>º_º)> ±h³ ѳv³®-£ⁿd¡תּ9 §±ºr¥ <(º_º<) | (>º_º)> תּℓζ ШǿѓЖ§|-Юρ <(º_º<)

That's such a horribly narrow-minded stereotype that it's disgusting. The South is full of highly intelligent people just as anywhere else. I'm not even from the South but I have friends down there and when you say in the future "It was just a joke" then my future response is "It's not funny".

Those 2 are actual quotes though. Spooky huh?

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(>º_º)> ±h³ ѳv³®-£ⁿd¡תּ9 §±ºr¥ <(º_º<) | (>º_º)> תּℓζ ШǿѓЖ§|-Юρ <(º_º<)

Haha, the South is not full of highly intelligent people. If it were, Louisiana and Mississipi wouldnt be at the bottom of the list in all statisical categories amongst all US states, year in and year out.

Our leader's are a bunch of rich conservatives who really don't do a good job at anything. They just make a lot of money for themselves well..by stealing.
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In Tribute to Adam Sliger. Rest in Peace

10/7/85 - 12/9/03

[This message has been edited by Ubuu (edited August 29, 2004).]

ATM, I would agree with you on the second part.

The first part however...

Alabama, where I live, is home to some of the most intelligent minds in the world, weird as it may seem. Why? We have a gigantic missile factory, and a NASA station here. Also we have one of the top tech colleges to our right, Georgia Tech.

But still, Flex, you're not American either, buddy. And Mort just KNOWS history, so what? I know some European history--that doesn't mean that I know why they are how they are. I don't know the attitude of the average European, or why they have that attitude. It's the same with the US.

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No other way I can say this...but you're being ignorant.

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(>º_º)> ±h³ ѳv³®-£ⁿd¡תּ9 §±ºr¥ <(º_º<) | (>º_º)> תּℓζ ШǿѓЖ§|-Юρ <(º_º<)

Care to back that up?

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Backed up.

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(>º_º)> ±h³ ѳv³®-£ⁿd¡תּ9 §±ºr¥ <(º_º<) | (>º_º)> תּℓζ ШǿѓЖ§|-Юρ <(º_º<)

I pray the admins will shoot this thread.

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The easiest way to kill a soldier is to make his commanding officer a politician.

Or shoot SAJN, but that would be too easy. he he he.

Oh as for Kerry and Vietnam. His war record wouldn't really be a big deal except for the fact that holds his war record in front of him like a shield to defend his right to be president. Nothing saying Kerry wasn't the one raping and pillaging in Vietnam either, even if not everone did. I'm going to side that he wasn't out of control in Vietnam though, no one could spout off about his record like Kerry does with that amount of guilt hanging over them, not even for politics.