Yes I've been serious this entire time.

No, I have to talk about that with other people on the mod's small "staff," Dan. But now I'm thinking it's not going to work. What I've seen in this thread really opened my eyes.

Oh well.

I don't know what to take from that... So I'm going to assume more pessimism. If it's one lesson I've learned through modding JK; Nothing works until you make it.

What I don't understand is why it's so hard to fathom a comeback for jk, when we all know deep down inside how truly amazing the game was, (and still is).

Besides if you really want people to know about your jedi knight source project, you should go through the effort of publishing as much as you can about it to as many places as possible on the Internet. Because the internet is growing so much, its becoming much harder to find anything, especially if the result is practically hiding in it's own dark little corner.

It's just not enough to have a page or a website and expect people to just find it (if you build it they will come? NOT QUITE!) Except if you were to assume for me to be the person who will bring they.

Now I feel silly for having recently released a level series...

Make more.

No it isn't. JK is under-engineered, complex, buggy and does none of the work for you. The same goes for JK's tools (sorry Alexei.) JK is so far removed from the way any other engine works that it's a complete waste of time trying to jump its many hurdles and barriers to entry.

The only way someone could possibly disagree with anything I've said is if they truly have no clue what they're talking about.

If I remember right, JK used negative-space editing, and that isn't used anymore. Or maybe I'm just thinking about JED.

ur dum

It was JK. If someone really wanted to make JK easy to edit, they would have made a positive space editor like Radiant that compiled down to efficient negative space sectors.

I'm also Dan!

Hi, Dans.

Yes. In JK's case, it's just a way of making the level designer do work the tools should be doing.

which is np complete.

It's a neat idea, but if there are any of us who could do it we don't have the time to.

Speaking as someone who has modded the JK, Q3, Far Cry, and Source engines...no, it isn't.

JK is a ***** to mod and offers no unique benefits whatsoever. There's literally no good reason to mod it, other than nostalgia or not wanting to learn newer and better tools.

Well this Dan, me, (Darth Dan) is jumping ship with this Dan. Like does anybody really care. If the saga of JK/JO/JA is dead then why in the hell are all you people and this web site still lingering around? Why is there still a Massassi, then I guess Im wasting my time as well with the whole thing.
I guess I have wasted three years of effort and diligent work on my current project called Project Nar Shaddaa (almost to completion).

I have been messing with JK for the last 10 years and Im still not through with it yet. When Im done with PJNS Im going on to learn how to edit Jedi-outcast/Radiant.

No, that's fine. The absolute best thing you can do for the JK community is produce quality content for people to play.

But making Facebook groups trying to convince people like me to go back to editing JK isn't going to help. People who want to will. People who don't want to have innumerable excellent reasons not to. If the other Dan really wants to jumpstart the JK editing community then he should go make some SP campaigns, or the next SBX. Telling other people to do it isn't going to work.


Why would you move from an very VERY outdated engine to a very outdated one? If you're going to learn a new toolset you might as well learn something that people are going to keep using for a while, like UED.

Right now I'm riding the ill-fated Source engine into oblivion, but it's still way better than JO, which is Q3-based. At least Source gets you familiar with some current-gen staples like ragdoll physics and normal mapping.

This is the sort of thinking I like to see. What COULD be next. If we work together to get towards what COULD be next, than that COULD becomes WILL.

You're right Jon, there IS a wee bit of a learning curve as for any platform to do anything on.

I hate to start using business terms in all of this but there is a greater market of people who would be interested in modding for an older video game like JK (FREE & EASY) then a market of people who would be interested in modding newer video games (EXPENSIVE & TIME CONSUMING). The return on investment, (time and money returns instantly testable results with JK), is much greater when dealing with editing for JK than when dealing with editing for any other game, (except for maybe starcraft mapping a.k.a. Plab B :P).

All that their needs is a means to reaching this market. Through all the mediums of currently popular social networks.

Imagine if we create one 5 minute video called, "Make your own Starwars Game: Getting Started." (if you search on youtube, the result has already been searched several times enough to come up in the auto-fill {by just typing how to make your own starwars} , but there are no promising results) And this video would go over just briefly all the short processes of creating or manipulating certain aspects of the game. Texture swapping, Editing Levels, even making mod's with gob explorer and patch commander. This video can even a set of video tutorials that goes over all the aspects in details.

If you search "How to make your own video game" you get some video of Chris Pirillo talking about some RPG maker thing that's completely lame compared to all the options and capabilities of modding JK. We can take advantage of this video by posting OUR 5 minute video to Chris' video as a video response, which not only gets the attention OF Chris Pirillo, but the attention of anyone on youtube who is searching "how to make your own video game".

I swear guy's. This whole thing is fathomable, and even do-able. We can even put short little commercials for notable mods and levels that already exist in these videos.

When I said think outside the monitor, I meant think about influencing people beyond just what you see through the monitor. Lets help inspire people to express their creativity through the game that did the same for us.

ADDITION:



You're absolutely right Thrawn, the engine is outdated and it offers nothing to anyone. The game completely sucks and there's no reason to even go on about it. But if I had to guess, I'd say JK modding is what inspired you to start modding for other games, or at the very least helped you in some way to progress... Other than just realizing how ****ty of a game JK is.

The only good reason is that JK has low system requirements, and there are more people in the world and on the web (who are interested in game modification) that can run JK than people that can run Far Cry, Source, etc...

It's time all these underground jk communities stopped being selfish and offer other people the means to start SOMEWHERE.

You are kidding right? Like, really? I hope you aren't doing this because you are being guided by your "business sense"? How old are you, by chance?

I suppose that building the Ford Model T (easy and probably dirt cheap now) will have a good return on investment, right? I'm sure there is still a HUGE market for those right?

I'm not telling people to do anything. I'm simple asking if anyone is interested in this movement. Thats it, and it seems like a lot of people here are, but not yet convinced. The time spent disagreeing with everything I say, and shooting down every idea I've had so far can be better spent towards this movement. Like actually joining the Facebook page (and I found out through beefcaike, a group) and posting stuff, which takes even less time if compared to the amount of thought that actually goes into writing negative feedback.



No I'm doing this because I see unlimited growth potential with my favorite game in the world. WHY NOT?

You are confused into what ROI really means, because if you did, you wouldn't have made such a silly reference example. But you could be right about that whole thing. I mean just search (Model T) on youtube and get results of people building Model T's with tens of thousands of views...

Also the facebook group for the Model T (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Model-T-100-Years/33998758760) Already has more people than Jedi Knight.

A. There wasn't enough people to get most projects off the ground when JK was in its prime.
B. There's no latest happenings. What you see on the front page of Massassi pretty much is all that ever happens.
C. The audience you describe is quite possibly smaller than Massassi itself.



The engine isn't flexible. It's highly inflexible. And thanks to the latest method of distribution, it's even less so. We required binary patches to make the engine work with anything remotely complex, and Steam's encryption ruined that.



You can't make people like a game. Until you find a way around that rule of life, you aren't going to be successful. Truth of the matter is, the vast majority of people who used to like JK don't play it anymore. The nostalgia wore off, the fun isn't there anymore. They've moved on. As far as what's left, well, you're looking at it




As mentioned before, just because JK helped you in some essentially unrelated way, does not mean it's the golden platform. It is anything but. I think you've really forgotten just what sort of hell it was to work on JK modifications and levels. It was incredibly limiting.



JK is not the platform to do that. JK isn't even a platform, it's an incredibly old engine that is completely holding onto its last legs, requiring DLL and binary hacks to keep running and not be so significantly limiting as to be not worth the effort.

Also, I have no idea what you were referencing otherwise involving backwards compatibility. JK offered no such thing. Lucasarts did nothing to assist Massassi in editing. It wasn't until Jedi Outcast that we received any real editing help at all (in the form of an SDK).

Games nowadays, at least their underlying engines, highly promote small-time modifications and development. There are plenty of examples:

1. Unreal Engine 3. Available free for indie developers to play with. Combine that with Unreal Tournament 3, and its UED.
2. Source engine, and all the games under it, are highly modifiable. Garry's mod is such a striking example of this: it was so popular that it is actually a for-pay modification. Maps and models are even finding themselves into the official distribution of the games (see also: Team Fortress 2).
3. XNA framework for Windows/360. The indie developer platform on the 360 means small-time developers can get their games on the 360 without requiring high-price education and funding. And that's a console.



A. Lucasarts would never redevelop this game. And even if they did, they most certainly would make it even more difficult to modify. It would be an entirely new engine, a completely new system to learn as well. If they didn't ban modification entirely! That's the nature of Lucasarts.
B. Steam support? That's not support. Lucasarts released it on Steam because it was free money for them. They were cashing in on nostalgia. It cost them next to nothing to package up a JK installation and distribute it. And that is all that they did.



You have an extremely amusing view of Lucasarts, and one that is not based in reality. Lucasarts as a game company doesn't give two craps one way or the other if we were to take off again as a community. They never developed JK intentionally for modification. All of the tools we had were written by people outside of Lucasarts.

They are ONLY about profits, and somehow magically bolstering this nostalgic community is not going to increase sales for them to care whatsoever.



You do realize that effort is nothing without something to work with? You can't do anything by just grandstanding and saying "BELIEVE! WORK TOGETHER! WE CAN DO IT!"

What is it? You haven't said anything on how you actually plan to make the community better other than we all need to just start doing stuff! Make stuff! Woo! Yeah, if the community wanted to just make stuff, they'd have done it by now.



If you think it's pessimism, then why don't you do some of the work you talk about? Making a Facebook group isn't going to do anything, and neither is sitting here trying to rally people behind a plan with no content. You don't actually have a plan, apparently.



There isn't any JK:S. MODDB won't bring traffic. No one reads the Steam forum. Youtube videos of what?





Words you should take to heart yourself. Perhaps you've forgotten, but even in JK's prime, modifications died on a regular basis. Large, glorious projects with tons of development time behind them, just sputtered and died. Again, this was back when the number of capable editors for JK was easily 20 times what it is now.



Maybe because we all don't have an unrealistic view of a 12 year old game. Yes, it was a great game. But the game didn't age well. Any editing that happens nowadays is done solely for the nostalgic factor. That's not enough to make any sort of comeback. No community ever bounced back just by nostalgia.



You can go ahead and advertise all you like. It doesn't matter if no one cares. You have to have something compelling for people to visit.

A. It's a 12 year old game. You're not going to convince your average newbie to even take a second look at it.
B. Anyone who used to edit JK and doesn't now probably doesn't do so for a good reason. That is, they got bored, aggravated, or moved on.
C. Anyone who loves "retro" games isn't going to care about an editing community.




TL;DR VERSION:

1. If you want anyone to do anything, you need to do something yourself. You've effectively done nothing thus far.
2. The game is not easy to modify, it is not an educational experience, it's punishment. Editing only occurs out of nostalgia (All good and fine, but be realistic).
3. You have no plan. Advertising and making stuff isn't a plan.

GUYS! THE MODEL T FACEBOOK FAN PAGE HAS 233 MEMBERS! ITS COMING BACK BABY!

For a minute there, I thought you were sarcastic with that youtube comment. I searched and yes, there are videos. Notice how they can construct a Model T in like 10-20 minutes with only about 10 people. Pretty easy right? Pretty cheap right? Do people today want a Model T?

Yeah, I thought so.

CM, bravo for putting the time into that. I wouldn't nearly have enough patience.

EDIT: You can actually apparently build a Model T in under 4 minutes. Guys, it's that easy. I guarantee if you start building them, you will revive the Model T.

Not entirely untrue. I showed up relatively late in the game and made a few attempts at modding JK, which didn't end well. The toolset seemed very ungainly and difficult to work with. At the same time, I was messing around with Quake 3, which amazed me with how mod-friendly it was. Not long after that JO came out, and shared most of Q3's strong points.

I think modders are less impressed by nostalgia value because we do what we do (usually) to create new experiences, not to relive old ones. We see games as a platform and a tool as much as something to be enjoyed on its own merits. That's why people immediately switched from JO to JA when the latter came out, even though JO was generally agreed to be a better game.


Ignoring the fact that most people who spend a significant amount of time modding see it as something of an investment, and upgrade their hardware accordingly...any home computer you buy from Dell or HP (or whoever) these days is still going to have no problem running, say, Q3, or even the original Half-Life, both of which are better-looking and easier to mod than JK. Trying to get people to start with Jedi Knight seriously ratchets up the learning curve, offers poorer results than the alternatives, AND limits people's ability to migrate those skills to other game engines.

Again, I can understand your nostalgia for the game, and I'm not saying it's not fun to fire it up once in a while to play SBX, but there's really no case for trying to get newbie modders to start with JK. The only good reason to keep modding JK in 2010 is if you're already balls deep in a project and don't want to learn a newer engine.

This thread has clearly become an exercise in how many different ways people can say 'You are going to fail'.

Like Cool Matty said, if someone was new to modding and wanted somewhere to start from, engines like Unreal # or Source should be suggested. Even something like Garry's Mod for Source is a great start. You can fiddle around, read some documentation and, voila, you can get something you made appear in the game. Suggesting JK would be cruel. Seriously.

If you want to map with Unreal 3, there are many videos online. If you want to work with Source, you got wikis and community tutorials. I'm sorry but JK is more like a dead-end to an inspiring modder. The people who still mod JK are doing for fun, but most have just became fond of the game after years of experience.



Didn't you get like a free t-shirt for winning that JA mapping contest?

Automobile restoration and modification of models from 2000-1900 is still a beautiful work of art and despite our government creating stipulations and street legalization restrictions this is an art that is still alive.

Classical Symphonic Orchestration, Cattle Drives, The Olympics, blah blah blah, etc...

None of those are remotely comparable to trying to convince people to mod a 15-year-old video game.

I don't disagree. I'm sure people are really interested in it. Just like how our community still knows about JK and is (somewhat) interested in the topic, although no one actively develops it.

Is it practical though? Is it useful? Would someone today want to drive a Model T on the interstate?

Not saying there is absolutely no purpose in him putting his soul into JK, but I'm saying he shouldn't expect this huge exponential growth in interest. The very fact that we have new engines and games today is evidence enough that people are DONE with the JK engine for all practical purposes.

For the record, I tried to edit JK I remember back in the day. In the end I had a lot more respect for all of you modders and level creators. That must've taken some patience.

Haha I came in third, but yes

What's even funnier is that my map is completely gone from the internet--as far as I can tell it was never uploaded to Massassi, and pcgamemods, the one place I remember posting it, is gone. I can't even find a single picture.

You are absolutely right Cool Matty. I do not have a plan. I only have an idea and a direction. Before I even think about spending the time to develop well thought strategy and a thorough plan I want to know what kind of resources I'm to be working with, people who want to help vs files and media etc...

Instead of completely shooting down all of my ideas lets discuss productively as to use the forum for it's rightful purpose. If we're not trying to get new JK players and modders, what can we do to bring JK back into the limelight for the new generation of gamers and modders? Or is JK even worth the limelight of? I believe it is 100%, and so far its at least worth a 3 page discussion, in 2 days.

But if you don't want a part in this, or don't want to help at all, just say so. But at the very least give me permission me to redistribute the files on this website or any other resources so I can get started.

Everything that I'd use will be credited respectively with a link back to the origins. (I'm not trying to steal anyone's work.)

Umm.....I'm pretty sure we've already WELL answered this question

We? So how good are you at computational geometry?

Thought so.

Of course there is.

Editing Unreal will give you hands-on experience with a modern content pipeline, a toolset that is rapidly becoming an industry standard, and it will let you build skills and a portfolio that will make you attractive to potential employers. More importantly, you'll be able to make content faster, easier and better. In short, learning to edit Unreal has actual, tangible benefits.

Editing Jedi Knight will give you... wait, what the heck is a content pipeline??
*argues vehemently about which tool hacked together in a basement is better than another*

Right, and I guess there's no way to change anyone's perspective on that. So what you, and everyone else here is telling me, is there is absolutely NO WAY to show anyone the value in learning to mod for JK.



When I say WE, I don't specifically mean any individual but anyone who is willing to help.

Not many people can afford a computer to fully take advantage of modding the latest Unreal engine.

I only want to show people JK as a place to start. Nothing more. Nothing less.

If you are going to compare a computer game to an antique automobile then I think JK is relatively too new. What about Space Invaders, asteroids, Super Mario 1 2 and 3. I know these didnt have a providable mod editor, I think, but Jk would more likely be compared to a 1969 corvette sting ray or a 1984 Delorean. Come on guys lets not make it that old.

Precisely, think of JK more of a vintage classic car, than a piece of **** beater. Yea it has it's flaws, but it takes a really skilled mechanic to completely master what you call a piece of **** system. (JK). BUT the catch is anyone can start, and there's enough resources here to assist!

There is no value in learning to edit JK.

Absolutely nothing you learn from editing JK will transfer to a different engine. It is not a place to "start."

there is no value in modding it.

also tl;dr

You're doing this entirely the wrong way. You come up with a plan, a well thought, detailed plan, and then people might consider helping.

All you're going to get now is naysayers, and people who will say "SURE I'LL HELP" until they find out how much work you're going to demand of them, and they'll abandon it so fast it'll make your head spin.

Also, thus far you've demonstrated that you cannot offer anything to further this idea beyond enthusiasm. You're not asking for help, you're asking for someone to carry your dream for you.

1982 Buick LeSabre

This is space invaders

this is JK

It's just another opportunity to get people to think creatively regardless of the lack of skills that can transfer. I just want other people to have the same opportunity we all had to explore a unique medium of creating. It's a start because it get's people to START being interested in creating **** for video games.



I wish you wouldn't skip through some of my writings, but I can see where you're coming from in how I may seem to be portraying myself here. The only thing I want to walk away from this thread with is either people who are willing to help, or permission to use resources. (See previous posts about credentials and link backs.)

My idea was if you were even interested, Cool Matty, to either of the following:

• Add modern social networking functionality to this website.
• Grant me permission to use the resources on this website to redistribute.
• Give me access to the website to add the modern social networking functionalities (if you can't do so yourself.)

I'm not demanding anything from anyone. I already established this. I am fully prepared to do this all by myself, but why would I if there are people willing to help even just a little bit.

This whole discussion has helped me more than you know already!

I have to say thank you for allowing this thread to go on as long as it has. I really appreciate the opportunity to share this idea with all of you.