There are some recent events that I think are amazingly important, but nobody on Massassi seems to be discussing them. I'm planning on continuously updating this thread as I have the time and interest. Stay tuned.



Chapter 1: Who? Why? Wisconsin!

The Fiction:

Faced with spiralling budgets, the government of Wisconsin is reluctantly passing legislation to reduce the wages and benefits of government employees in an effort to save public sector jobs.

What's really happening:

Business as usual for the Republican party. Is anybody even pretending that they care about the American people anymore?

Some of you are familiar with the Shock Doctrine. This is Stage 2 in full swing: State Republicans are using the 'shock' of the economic crisis to push through legislation that promotes the interests of their corporate sponsors at the detriment of their electorate.
What we're seeing is a national-scale frontal assault on the ability of Americans to unionize. The implications reach far beyond the public sector in just one state.

The Republicans are just testing the waters in Wisconsin. The main event is going to happen in Indiana. The Indiana bill would make it a criminal offense for any employer to require workers to join a union. Basic game theory states that this law effectively outlaws unionization. (If you can't immediately see why, read this page.)

Media response:

The Franklin Center commissioned a poll to determine the opinion of the average Wisconsin voter. A statistically significant percentage of Wisconsin voters are in favor of collective bargaining powers (56%.) Most other issues are statistically insignificant from random chance, so nothing else can be said about them.
(Huge thumbs up on the statistics! The only problem I can see is that Rasmussen's sampling technique produces a small sample bias in favor of Republican voters.)

There are reports of a prank phone call that are quite interesting. Someone spoke to Gov. Walker while pretending to be miachiavellian supervillain David Koch, the founder of a grab bag of high-profile Republican associations. Among other things, Gov. Walker admitted to conspiracy to incite a riot, the use of force to suppress free expression, and to usurp the democratic process. Well, at least Republicans stick to their values.

Jeff Cox, Asst. Attorney General from Indiana, was fired for publicly advocating the use of lethal force to silence Wis. protesters. If Jeff Cox' hateful, violent, anti-constitutional invective isn't enough to convince you that he's a Tea Partier, check out the blogs he links to.

Hilarious right-wing propaganda:

Newscorp:
Fox Nation reports that the Franklin Center poll says 71% of Wisconsin voters are in favor of the budget changes. This is an outright lie.

Fox News lies some more, but that's not too surprising. They reversed the results from a Gallup poll, both on-screen and on the teleprompter, to better suit the Party message.

Forbes:
Commenters opine that unions are responsible for the decline of American manufacturing. Couldn't just be the Dutch Disease, right? At least they're honest about the true scope of the Wisconsin debacle.

Im confused, what does this have to do with Charlie Sheen or Lindsey Lohan?

“BTW, two wars are in an endless state of sorrow. Egypt about burned to the ground, and all you people care about is my bull**** … pathetic … Shame shame shame.”
– Charlie Sheen

I respect this thread now.

I do have to say that I found it really odd that we don't have an actual thread on what's going on in Libya and whatnot that isn't started with some horse**** post by Tibby. I was going to make one myself then remembered that I'm horrible at political threads.

Thanks for that, feel better about yourself now?

No, but I'm not going to threadcrap any further.

I'm avoiding the Wisconsin topic because I'm sick of being attacked by fellow libertarians for supporting unions. Being libertarian means I'm against all government regulation on unions, and that includes laws against them.

It can also be very hard to explain to them that the income disparity between union and non-union workers does not mean that unions workers are overpaid. It also means that non-union workers are underpaid. But too many of them add Corporatism to the libertarian platform, and think that there's nothing wrong with corporate fat cats collecting multi-million dollar salaries while the people who actually make their companies run are choosing between buying gas to get to work or buying their children food. I can't take arguing against people so devoted to voting against their own best interest anymore. I prefer talking to rational people.

I know you don't want this to be the focus of the thread or anything, but I gotta say: that is the best use of a quote, ever.

Actually, between Libya and Charlie Sheen I hadn't heard at all what was going on in Wisconsin.
As a member of a union, I have to say that this is some disgusting crap they're pulling, but as a Washingtonian there's really nothing I can do about it.

-A while back my Union was helping to support a bill that would make this sort of thing illegal, actually, but I don't know what happened to it.

I think what a lot of people miss is that there is no such thing as fellow libertarians. Most self-titled libertarians these days are just savvy to the fact that almost every other form of conservatism is now reviled by the majority of Americans.

Libertarianism is classical liberalism, period. This means supporting the minimization of government intervention and the maximization of civil and economic rights. This specifically means never, ever supporting bans on services like gay marriage, abortions, drugs, or the construction of new mosques, no matter how much you may dislike them.

The fact that Tea Partiers can get away with calling themselves libertarians, or claiming to champion for small government, is totally disgusting and demonstrates conclusively how good the Republicans are at controlling the discourse in the United States. And they've spent so much time and money discrediting all news sources (including their own propagandists) that there's no way of turning it around.

Eh, Anarcho-capitalist libertarianism is just a naive sociopolitical philosophy, a bunch of arrogant wannabe capitalists who think that they'd be the people in charge when all the laws went out the window. There's always a bigger fish.

-Anyways, this doesn't really have anything to do with the situation, I think, that's more a concern of the hideous budget problems many states are still facing. But I can rest easy in the knowledge that the worst of the recession is past and the aftershocks will soon die off as well.

Very interesting... I hadn't heard anything about it at all.

Over here our newly elected right wing government is economizing for billions and billions of dollars... they're economizing on what they call 'left wing hobbies', like social work, arts & culture, nature & environment. It's the same thing, they're using the economic crisis as an excuse to push through all the legislation and measures they've wanted to take for years.

There are always problems with the unions over here, but as far as I know they're not making attempts to sabotage them.

The saddest thing is that the lower class gave their votes to the right en masse. Half of them are afraid of the so-called 'Tsunami of Islamization', and the other half is just so sick of politics that they're voting for the populists, totally unaware that they're voting for the emptying of their wallets at the same time.

This Wisconsin development sounds pretty serious. But one would think the democrats would pick up on it at some point. Or are they on the same page when it comes to the unions? Also, surely there should be other media coverage than just the propaganda?

My impression is that the Democrats have fled the legislature to (somehow?) prevent the passage of Walker's legislation.

The Democrat senators have fled the state to prevent a quorum in the state senate. The Republicans are not legally allowed to vote on the bill until at least 4 of the senators return home.


er... there is. Plenty.

The traditional media can't make a big deal out of it, or else the right-wing media will accuse them of "liberal bias." It doesn't matter whether it's true or not; as news corporations they need to avoid the image of bias, which means avoiding certain issues the radical right doesn't want them to talk about. Making a huge deal out of the Wisconsin debacle is one of those issues. I can't overstate how much the right has poisoned the news in the United States.

The Republicans want to force this legislation through at the state level, in every state they control, quickly and quietly. God help the Democrats if they try to block it at the federal level... there will be teeth-gnashing about states rights for the next 50 years.

I don't get how that would outlaw unionization at all. It's already illegal in 22 states, and unions yet still persist in them.

Aren't you Canadian?

Just because someone doesn't live in a country, doesn't mean they should turn a blind eye to the atrocities committed in that country.

I am.

First, I care about what happens to the American people. This **** sucks and it deserves to get talked about.

Second, even if I didn't care, the United States has a great deal of economic power and it is the most important trading partner of Canada. Because of these facts, the United States is a trend-setter for labor laws and policies within Canada. What happens to you will eventually happen to us.

Finally, a lot of Americans believe in the opinions of an evil Australian who hates you and everything you love. I have as much right to talk about your politics as he does.

I'm a state worker for Wisconsin now (in Madison), and I really don't see the fuss :/. I have absolutely no problem having my retirement/health premiums match private sector contributions. Why should mine be any less just because I'm state? As for the unions, I am unrelated to that. Many of the people protesting have an argument, but I'd say the most vocal sector of protesters (the public school teachers) really shouldn't be complaining all too much.

Also, Jon, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he has not said anything about collective bargaining rights for wages. Those will be retained by the unions, they just can't negotiate benefits. "state employees would maintain the ability to collectively bargain for wages as long as the union’s proposed wage increases are no greater than the annual change in the consumer price index (CPI). Additionally, a greater increase could be obtained if approved by a referendum and passed by the voters of the state." So at the very least wages will not be reduced.

And also he didn't "incite" a riot. He was asked by the prankster about plans to "plant troublemakers" (NOT Walkers plans, just "we"'s plans according to Koch/prankster), and Walker said that he thought about it and said it was wrong, and wasn't needed anyway. I wouldn't consider that really inciting a riot, considering he said he wouldn't do it in the first place anyway. Also, for those of you hoping the Walker fails, it's not looking likely. Being in Wisconsin, I've been privy on local news to many of the interviews and such with the Democrats out of state, and if you are hoping for Democrats to convince the people to support unions, it ain't happening with this batch. They are borderline retarded. Walker's presentation (since he is a greasy politician) appears as much more credible than the Democrats they've been interviewing.

Anyways, this definitley IS a union-busting move, whether you agree with it or not. The unions have already conceded the benefits, and only want to retain their collective right to bargain for benefits, but Walker is not budging on that. There is no reason to take their bargaining rights unless you have some fundamental belief that bargaining rights/unions lead to waste. So, yeah, despite Walker saying its not a union attack, it most certainly is.

The scene here is quite something though! The amount of support the people are getting is amazing. People from all over the world are calling in food/supplies/etc for all the people staying the night in the capital. It's very cool to be a part of something like this, although I'm not really on one side of the fence or the other

It depends on the industry and the company. Some few of them actually do recognize the value of paying their employees a living wage. In any industry where the employer can get away with paying minimum wage and still compete, they do.

Unrelated : Anarcho-capitalism fails hard so long as the government pretends that corporations are real entities. Take away the government's limited liability protection (That is, hold the owners of a corporation personally responsible for the actions of that company; When a BP oil rig explodes and destroys the gulf, you arrest the owners of BP) and most of the big business issues vanish. And that's exactly the problem with government regulation. They caused that very problem by getting involved in the first place.
As another example, the health care industry. We had a great system going where everyone could get access to affordable healthcare, until some lobbyists got involved... http://whakahekeheke.wordpress.com/2010/03/29/how-government-solved-the-healthcare-crisis/
The government gets involved, it ****s things up. Why should we expect the government to then fix it?

I really don't see why I should kill myself slaving away in some nowhere job for minimum wage, but it's what would happen if the republicans got their way. They want feudalism, and a bunch of irrational people vote themselves into serfdom every year.

Just to clarify, because I know I always sound like two people talking at once when I combine unions and anarchy :
There shouldn't be any laws in support of or against unions.

Gay marriage : I support it.
Abortion : I don't like it, I don't support it; however I recognize one serious social benefit, and it fails my simple 'Would I use force to stop it?' litmus test. The problem with this issue, for me, is that I support an individuals rights only until the infringe on someone else's.
Drugs : Go for it. However, I'd still consider operating motor vehicles while under the influence criminal, and people are still responsible for their actions while high.
Mosques : It's your land, build what you want on it.

So do I have your approval to call myself 'classically liberal' now?

I believe this belongs here.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that was a concession. And it's ultimately worthless. You were an econ major, you know damn well what that's actually saying - if the unions aren't allowed to ask for more than keeping pace with inflation, it means they have to actively fight to make the same economic profit they make today. That's garbage.

Wrong. Walker said that it was suggested to him by someone, but it wasn't his idea. The Madison police are taking this seriously and so should you. Whether it was Walker or a different official, the very idea is beyond grotesque.

Oh, believe me, I know that, and I knew that you would say that because I knew you knew econ (all those knews/knows)!! I readily admit I do a terrible job of presenting my arguments online. I will clarify by saying that I find that the probability they get this raise is very high. Factor in too that all federal employees are on pay-freeze as well. Also, since raises over the CPI are determined by the public voters in the state with the bill, there's a good chance they will get those too because (at least until teachers were taking off school), the public was drastically on the side of the workers. I'm pretty confident that they will get their raise, especially after all this garbage from Walker. But yes, I do completely agree with what you are saying, i'm just confident that they will at least get the wage increases since they are a function of voter sympathy in the budget bill, and right now the public sympathizes with the workers. Their collective bargaining rights for wages are not be taken away, and they still have the right to strike if they ever want to have their wages raised (WI still allows that), and they can still get a raise above the level of CPI if the voters of the state approve.

And yes, the act of throwing protesters in is grotesque. But I do not think it was intended in a way to cause violence, when this city has received so much praise already for the way things have been handled. I would not be so quick to say that he was obviously trying to incite a riot, that's all. He said himself he wouldn't want things to get so out of hand that he had to "settle" (the fact he is thinking about it like this does show how crazy he is), but it sounded like he didn't want a riot.

I guess I missed the part where we were discussing atrocities.

Oh this thread is awesome. Instead of just doing what I do and realizing that the vast majority of Massassi not only knows nothing about current events but actually couldn't care less, Jon`C starts a thread to inform and encourage dialogue. Unfortunately, he couldn't resist completely framing the dialogue in the prose of the far left Communislamofacists. Now, in case you interpret that as an attempt by me at trolling, let me be clear: Those groups (and others if I could find convenient ways of working them all into one word) have absolutely no problem joining causes. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, after all. Useful Idiots such as Jon`C have no problem carrying their water. Bankrupt governments from the municipal to federal levels and the Communislamofacists, along with their useful idiots, have a problem with limiting government employees' union "rights" to campaign against citizens and "pay" slightly more for their cushy government benefits? No wonder Libtards are so excited about space exploration. When you bankrupt this world you're going to need to find an alien planet to blame for our problems and penalize through taxes. I guess you all hope you find an even more intellectually inferior species (read: libtarded). Maybe we can guilt trip them after they enslave us.

Missed this post somehow.

The proposed bill in Indiana would make it a misdemeanor for a company to force their employees to be union members. Unionization only works when all employees of a company have to be members of a union.

Suppose you work at a union company in Indiana. Company policies are basically dictated by the union.

Now, suppose you quit the union. Even without you, the union still has enough power to influence working conditions. You still gain all of the benefits of collective bargaining, but you don't have to pay dues.

Now, suppose you stay in the union but everybody else quits. The union has no power at all, but you're still stuck paying union dues.

In either case, you benefit from leaving the union. And everybody else will leave too, because it is also to their advantage to leave the union. In the end there is no union at all.

In game theory terms, this is a very simple example of a symmetrical matrix game with an obvious Nash equilibrium strategy (a Nash equilibrium is a strategy that all players will take, because it will always benefit them more than the alternative.) The link I posted includes an informal proof that Nash equilibrium strategies can produce sub-optimal economic results. Rational agents in the economy will naturally choose the Nash equilibrium strategy, unless there is outside intervention encouraging cooperation (such as an employment contract requiring union membership.)

Like I said, understanding this is predicated on knowledge of game theory. It's a fascinating field and I encourage you to learn more about it.

Edit: The Republicans understand game theory very well and they enjoy using it to hurt you. If you understand their weapons you can understand their strategy.

I'll refrain from posting anymore just because I prefer to lurk and observe now :), I just thought I'd throw in my two cents as a Madison-ian, as well as a state worker who is partially affected by the bill.

The one thing that should definitely be brought out of this though, is how Walker was handling the situation. It was absolutely atrocious from a common decency standpoint. That is what TRULY made me angry about this situation. He can't even sit down to have a ****ing discussion with the union leaders and talk about this? Just get it signed over night quickly without ANY real discourse? I mean, WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU REFUSE TO EVEN SPEAK? Like, just have some respect for your fellow man and have a talk. It was just a really shady move, which I'm sure happens in a lot of states and other parties, but it just seemed like this was incredibly bold in the resulting consequences. It made me once again, very depressed, about politics. I cannot support his actions. He ****ed this up royally, he's paying for it by how big these demonstrations are. Some might say that this was typical of a Republican, but the Democrats did something similar with a large tax increase 2 years ago here in Wisconsin, although Walker's was more aggressive for sure

-snip-


Pretty clear you're trolling, and are either very misinformed or purposefully ignorant

I see no reason to respond at all.

There is no standard by which that is not trolling. You are a troll. That's all there is to it.

-That said, knowing that it's only about collective bargaining for benefits and not wages makes things a lot less tense. I still think it's wrong, but I don't see it as barbaric, or as an "atrocity".

Make no mistake about this: under this bill, workers would only legally be allowed to bargain for raises to keep up with inflation. That's a 1.5% increase per year. That's nothing. It's a joke, and like mscbuck said they're going to get that kind of increase whether they ask for it or not. It's only in the bill so that Jarl on the internet can think "Oh, it's not so bad then."
This is most certainly about wages, too.

And this bill doesn't just affect the workers. Yes, they're getting a rough deal - but this is about infrastructure and the quality of government services and public goods. This bill robs government workers of the ability to influence their working conditions. Teachers would no longer be allowed to strike over class sizes, for example.

This is very very bad for everybody involved. The only people it benefits are the private businesses, who will use the shock of declining public services to replace them with private ones - and free market principles guarantee they will not produce enough of these services to sustain the community. But that's another story.

This bill also isn't as much about what happens to the workers now. The unions already conceeded to everything walker needed to balance the budget. This is about what Walker gets to take from them next year.


It might be another story but it should be brought up. About the only advantage a government industry has is universality. Schools are a great example. Public schools are mandated to teach everyone, and they are mandated to provide transport for everyone. Even in rural areas where it's very expensive. A private school has no such restriction. If the school even has buses, they aren't going to drive way out into the middle of nowhere. And, private schools can pick and choose which students they allow in. Private schools often perform better, but not because they do better - because they don't let stupid children in in the first place, and the children often have more involved parents. Privatizing the school system won't make all the public schools suddenly perform as well as private schools. What it will do is cause school administrators to start making decisions based on profit instead of merely cost. Suddenly they will be able to expel an expensive student. Schools in rural areas will either be much more expensive, or cease to exist. The poor will no longer have an option; and without that education they will stay poor. Once again the republicans want to turn everyone into serfs, so that they can be our lords.

Here's the amusing part: if this bothers you so much, stop trying to hide a bunch of trolling and come up with some dialogue that sits on the other side. You know... like a discussion? Instead of just attacking him right out of the gate and claiming it as not trolling?

I'm leaving the country in September. You can all go & vote yourselves in to oblivion for all I care.

While this is a very eloquent and instructional example of game theory, you're missing the point of my confusion. You said that that part of the law would effectively outlaw unions. My state, Florida, is a "right-to-work state". The Florida constitution says that it is illegal for a company to force their employees to be union members. However, labor unions still exist in Florida, and public sector unions are still powerful.

I think it's funny how Wookie keeps misspelling "liberated."

I hate how some people think unions are all great and perfect for their members. This is horse ****. My daughter works at Albertsons part time. She is forced to be in a union. She gets minimum wage and no benefits yet is still required to pay union dues. Every single one of the other part-time workers doing less than 25 hours a week is in the exact same situation. The unions keep all their money and provide no benefit to them whatsoever.

Fine, I've picked a few pieces out of his opening troll post.



Troll. Elected Republicans doing what they promised the voters they would do is caring about the "American people".



And your best example is the Indiana bill which I will engage presently? The fact is that the best example of any party using crisis to advantage are Democrats in the federal government. Remember Rule Number One?





This is interesting. Couldn't it be said that the idea of unionization was to protect employees from oppressive employers? Wouldn't you think that employers bargain with and make concessions to their unionized workers? Assuming you believe the answers to the questions are in the affirmative, wouldn't it follow that it would be simpler for a company to not have unionized employees? Seems to me that the very notion that employers would require union membership seems suspect. It's also interesting that Jon`C apparently supports employers forcing their employees to join unions.



Oh, David Koch, such a "miachiavellian supervillain" [sic]. Anyway, I read most of the transcript from the prankster's discussion with the governor. The closest I noticed to what Jon`C lies about above follows but now that I've given him a source perhaps he can find the appropriate portion to substantiate his allegation:







Actually, you either suck at reading comprehension, which we know you don't, or are lying yourself. Actually, most likely you didn't bother to fact check any of the talking points from whichever faction of the Communislamfacist movement you're taking direction from. The page you link to says "71% of Wisconsin Voters Say Gov. Walker's Budget Changes Are 'Fair'" From your own cite above but more directly from here:





Possibly the most rational thing you've posted. Seems they got that one wrong. In fact, pretty similar to how you just got your previous point wrong. Hey, Massassi Irony Police, is it correct for me to call this "irony" yet?



At this point I'm just getting tired of responding to your misinformation. Basically, I'll just conclude with saying OMG someone on the internet disagrees with what you've been told to believe.

I would like to know what your real sources for the above misinformation were. I just don't think you could have gotten so much wrong on your own, although I could be giving you too much credit.