So, I seem to remember that a while back there was an effort to re-make the "Nar Shaddaa loading terminal" level. I dont remember if it was going to be a remake for JK or for JO, though. there was an accompanying piece of concept art that was pretty awesome that i think someone here did. does anyone remember this and if so is there a better way of finding it than just browsing through hundreds of of pages of old posts?

You're thinking of the Jedi Knight: Rebirth project. The [crazy good] concept art (below) was originally drawn by Halucid.



Then, Z@NARDI started on the level design.



This is as far as the level got. JK:R's level recreation efforts succumbed to extremely poor leadership; the core concept of the project management is that the levels would take less time to recreate if they were handed off between different designers, assembly-line style, rather than leaving each designer up to their own expertise and scheduling. So, Z@NARDI did his part, and then couldn't hand it off because I think by that point everybody else figured out how stupid it was.

Xzero took the concept art a lot further. I don't think he ever released his version, but it was nearly finished:



However, Xzero was told that he was not good enough to work on JK:R. He now works at Crytek.

hoobidyfloobidyfulp!

Hahahahahahaha

Wow what a useless post there, Krokodile XVII, but that is truly great.

Other than our one unfortunate mutual blow-up in a showcase thread, I always sung xzero's praises as a skilled, productive, and astoundingly prolific designer, and when I saw kirby fire him in public over irc that's the moment I figured out a few things about 1.) the likelihood that JK:R would get released, and 2.) kirby.

because that **** was retarded as ****.

This was fun trip down Massassi memory lane.

whoops! thanks Jon'C!!!

Yeah, Xzero came a long way. I remember one of his earliest level designs was a rip-off from my first released MP map. It was nothing special that I made, but I was really proud of it back then and was pretty pissed off that he stole my idea, haha. Then some of you guys told me I should see it as a compliment, and so I did. He just became better and better while my huge projects always ended up unfinished. I am -still- planning on releasing a couple of them, since some of them are pretty close to completion, and really should see the light of day.

what a bit o' history... any idea what his role at Crytek is?

Hey Jon, off topic-ish, but did those physics (Bullet?) problems put an end to your Gorc work? Or are you still fiddling with it?

Dev/LD afaik.

Gorc's fine. I've been busy/procrastinating a bit because its a finnicky bit of code that I really didn't want to have to write, but it's almost back to where it was before, faster and actually more accurate to how JK did things. There's just not a lot of progress that I can show off since to most people it'd look like the project has actually gotten worse.

I know several people, including myself, that are definitely eager to see your progress updates, for whatever that's worth.

I'm sure there are many others that include themselves in that same category.

I honestly don't remember "firing Xzero" but if I did I am as big of an idiot as you claim.

I think what frustrates me most about this community is that a lot of what is said privately or in the chatroom when a person isn't there would probably really help them grow and learn if it was communicated correctly. I was a terrible leader, and that part was absolutely communicated, but the mistakes I was making weren't very clearly laid out until after the fact. More specifically, my problems with 3D modeling were minor and easily fixed had I been made aware of my mistakes, having self taught everything I knew about modeling. Instead I found out later that it was common knowledge that I didn't know how to properly model anything for a game. I would honestly probably still be 3D modeling if I didn't have my work publicly shamed.

I made serious mistakes and drank my own coolaid, I can absolutely admit that. I did the same thing for the UR Mod where Ace_1 painstakingly translated all of my ideas into a mod for JK, doing things the DBZ mod took years to do in a matter of months. However, I was accused of wanting to take credit for other people's work, and that poorly characterized my intentions and my actual shortcomings. I had, and still have a big ego, but it's actually pretty easy to get me to use some perspective, ground myself, and be humble; challenging or attacking me is not the fastest way, though.

That's one of my biggest problems with you, specifically Jon`C. I think you have a lot to teach people, and I think that you're one of the "teachers" in my life that's had a big impact, for better or worse. What bothers me is that you've instilled shame and doubt in me where I think your honesty packaged a little differently would have changed my life for the better indefinitely. If instead of developing personal spite for people and calling them out, you actually put the same amount of energy into helping people, I think both you and your target (?) would accomplish a whole lot more.

I said it at the time, and I'll say it again: I really am sorry the whole JKR thing happened. I honestly didn't mean for it to be the way it was perceived by both the modders nor the community, but absolutely made serious mistakes because of my own excitement and confidence in "organizing" anything.

You did. You really did, you told him he wasn't good enough to work on the level. You publicly humiliated him in front of some of the "best" editors in the community, in fact. That's why he independently made his own version from the same concept art, to show that he could really do it.

You invited me to the JK:R level design meeting because Sith 2.

When you discussed your project management strategy - handing off the level to different people - I immediately, politely, and privately told you it was a bad idea and why it was a bad idea. You didn't listen.

You also announced that you were essentially abdicating from your leadership responsibilities, delegating those to halucid. I immediately, politely, and privately told you it was a bad idea. You didn't listen.

You also publicly fired xzero for not being good enough. I immediately, politely, and privately told you it was a bad idea. You didn't listen.

And I'm absolutely positive that other people were telling you the same things, but you didn't listen. No, you don't get to use "but nobody told meeeee" as an excuse. dwi.

There is nothing wrong with being weak at 3D modeling. If you had put in the time and effort, you would have surely become good at it. Nobody criticizes you for being bad at modelling. And yes, we do sometimes chuckle at your one contribution to JK:R is the weakest model in the entire pack, but you're missing the point.

Once upon a time, Shred mentioned behind your back (without even being cruel or anything) all of the problems he had trying to get your repeater rifle working in game. Because he didn't think he could talk to you about your work. And even after he quit your project and finished the models on his own, he was still so worried about denting your ego that he used your model, warts and all. I mean, the whole thing there is that shred, the guy who was time and effort-wise effectively bankrolling your entire project, couldn't work with you.

I tried to help you and you didn't listen. I tried, I tried, I tried. Even after, I kept listening to your other projects and other ideas, and still tried to help you. Now you are a case study.

I'm not going to defend myself or anything, you're probably right because I genuinely don't remember. I really wish I had listened. Interestingly I took Shred's use of my model after claiming I was trying to take credit for his really personally and would've preferred he'd explained specifically what I did wrong instead of what ended up coming out about them. I invested a lot of my self worth in things that I really shouldn't have, and was blind to reason. I think my intimidation with people can cause me to fake it until I make it instead of humbly learn and take direction from others, but I also think I've improved in this respect a lot. My problem now is that I assume that everything I do will end up the same way as it did, and I think the thing I'm trying to point out is that I can't really remember anything but that you've said that very thing before. Instead of having an ego so bloated it pops, I'm instead deflated and incapable of recognizing any of my own potential. I don't want to make it seem like Jon`C or anyone is responsible for that but me, but I do really wish I remembered the discreet personal messages I apparently ignored over the critical lashings that have kept me from showcasing anything I've made since this fiasco.

I'm not trying to be cruel or anything. Sith2 is another outstanding example of how poor leadership can sink a project, although it was a different kind of poor leadership. The whole xzero thing was just astonishingly cruel and short-sighted though, and I guess I also delight in the irony that had the situation been reversed you really would have earned the same treatment. So if you really view the sober second thought (i.e. shame) you've since gained as a major life obstacle then sorry I guess.

To be perfectly honest I have always known I'm awful at leading things, I was just too lazy and stupid to implement anything in JK that I thought regurgitating all of the **** I read and looked up in old posts made me fit enough to organize my talented friends instead. While it was implied that I wanted to take credit for other people's work, to be honest, I just wanted to be involved in any way. Posting showcase forums wasn't a way to show off other people's work, it was just a way to be included in something I really enjoyed but couldn't find a way to contribute to legitimately. In a way I guess that's wanting to take credit, but I was a little more excited about answering questions and formatting the post because that's all I was contributing to feel important. I've always done so much better self learning a basic talent and then over-delivering on a modest task I've been delegated, and that's honestly where I take criticism the best. When I'm taking on the expectations of a leader, I posture and compensate for lack of knowledge and assuming gusto and intuition are good leadership qualities. It took a long time to learn those things, though.

I think I could [have been?] be a better leader if I did the leg work and had the experience to whittle down my own ambitious ideas before delegating them. Recognizing talent is hardly a talent, and is so little of the prerequisites to utilize those talents.

Long after I'd kind of given up modeling, Aaron asked me to model a ship for SG1, but I still hadn't entirely learned about my mistakes with vertices and interior surfaces. I still managed to create a low polygon model with the right visual look to imply the curve of the wing. He mentioned my internal surfaces, fixed the model, and sent it back to me to study. I'd had the ability to make meshes that could be correctly wrapped and unwrapped for years, but because I'd never personally implemented my own models, I had never learned what kind of a mistake I was making. Unfortunately I only ever made one more model after that, and haven't really touched a program since. I guess my point here is that I know I was able to take constructive criticism and improve from it, and I wish I had discovered that fact far sooner.

leadership has nothing at all to do with ideas. the whole point of the job is to help people collaborate. sometimes that means making tough decisions, but it absolutely does not mean trampling people. when the lead designer, product owner, or key stakeholder is also in charge of managing the project, it's a recipe for disaster.

I love IRC drama!

I love to see as Jon`C struggles to rail on someone who just agrees.

Jon`C: "You were a terrible leader!"
JK: "Yes, I was, and now I'm depressed."
Jon`C: "Uh, sorry, I guess?"
JK: "I wish I was better at being productive too."
Jon`C: "Ah! Let me tell you how your terrible skills had nothing to do with your terrible leadership!"
JK: "I'll go cry in a corner now."
Jon`C: "Er, good. ...did I mention you're an idiot? Where did you go? I've got more pithy commentary to offer when you come back."

And then Tibby chimes in how awesome Jon`C is for saying someone sucks.

on the subject of soppy vaginas, here's gebohq, still raw from that time I didn't want to work with him as lead designer for a thing because I didn't think he could handle interdisciplinary teamwork

dude that's my favorite kind of vagina

soppy and raw

amirite antony? c'mon bud

Did someone delete posts? I thought this went well :/

and this is why I've only ever developed a level by myself. No offense to anyone.

If anyone is to remake Jedi Knight, it should be done as a mod for the source engine, anyway

Aw, you remember. My soppy vagina is overjoyed. How'd that project turn out, by the way?

Gettleburger and I both really liked your elevator pitch and we asked you to write a full treatment. You never sent it to us.

:shrug:

That's not how I remembered it. I remembered sending you guys further stuff and never getting a response.

EDIT: Specifically, I sent an email to Gettle to arrange time to hammer out details, and he never got back to me. I could only do so much when I only had so much say in the matter.

last I heard from anybody, ben was meeting with you on irc to flesh out the doc and build something we could work from. I guess that never happened.

welp

Nope. Couldn't get a hold of him then. Understandably so, as he was (and has been since) a busy guy working on games professionally. I was rather excited at the time too in part because you gave good, constructive feedback in the email without strings of insults attached.

That's the worst, right? I hate when I send an email and forget the attachment.

sometimes i wish i could +1 things on here.

Also, it seems that Jon'C is the Massassi historian on things people actually care about.

On the flip side: FGR is the Massassi historian on things no one cares about. :-P

<.<

Jon`C, you have an amazing memory. I think I actually was around on IRC during the time that some of that JKR drama happened.

Also, Kirby modelled a bowl for me, which is sitting proudly in one of my maps. I really couldn't model 3DOs. Only really basic shapes and then I still did it the wrong way. Kirby also modelled a pendulum for me that is still sitting in the project folder of one of my nearly finished projects.

Well that sucks. All along I figured you had just flaked on it. my bad. If it makes it any better, everybody else lost interest too afaik.

I'm more than willing to work with people I'd otherwise disagree with, and I really don't have as much of a problem with you as you think. I mean with the whole leadership/direction thing before in that xna project, I wasn't insulting you, I had actual legit concerns about giving the technical direction job to someone who had never done it before (especially when gettleberger was willing to do it, literally a professional). it's not like it's a job that people should really "want" either so I was really confused why you and jm were giving me such a hard time over it.

oh well.

hey guys let's make the YODA engine 4 real this time

The sad truth is those models were probably done wrong, and you did more than I ever did by getting them in game.