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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Game of Thrones Discussion Thread
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Game of Thrones Discussion Thread
2014-04-20, 3:32 PM #41
Originally posted by Jon`C:
My fav part is the reification of logic and the identity of indiscernibles. e.g. Vivec hints that the Dwemer (most likely) poofed the instant they collectively realized the logical contradiction of their existence, and characters metamorphose into other characters simply by acting like them for long enough.

Nothing to do with asoiaf though.


Indeed. I was actually a bit obsessed with the Dwemer in part because of their metaphysical difficulties. I read a fascinating paper a while back about how Vivec could actually be construed as a manifestation of the player even.

Back on topic though. One of the things I found curious about the series so far is there are all these references to religions and deities and such but it's all sort of just cultural worldbuilding, and then all of a sudden, practically out of nowhere, ladies start giving birth to shadow demons... Not having read the books I don't know if it was that abrupt and jarring a transition in them though.
Also, I can kill you with my brain.
2014-04-20, 4:48 PM #42
Originally posted by Reid:
Surely you're not this dense, Antony.


Surely, you're not this defensive, Reid.
>>untie shoes
2014-04-20, 10:03 PM #43
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2014-04-20, 11:10 PM #44
God I loved Morrowind as a teen. I played at least 100 hours of it and feel I barely scratched the surface. I should go back and play it now that I'm older and more apt to appreciate its subtleties. And perhaps read the Dostoyevsky book Reid mentioned.

Speaking of (Russian) philosophical works, anybody here into Tarkovski's films? Солярис is one of my favorite films. Сталкер was rad too.
2014-04-21, 5:26 AM #45
Originally posted by Reid:
Antony, 300 is certainly lowbrow, and I was not condemning lowbrow art altogether. Part of the reason I like 300 is because of how I interpret the story; it's always seemed like a cinematic retelling of a Greek soldier's version of events. The Greeks were very prideful and were prone to tell tall tales. There was significant production quality and a tad bit of novelty, too, with the movie being filmed entirely over a CG background.

Each work of art has to be appreciated in it's own right, and I do try to do that, so I wanted to know why Game of Thrones should be especially interesting.


It's important to also remember that 300 is fascist propaganda with a side of eugenics support.
>>untie shoes
2014-04-21, 9:28 AM #46
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2014-04-21, 10:12 AM #47
Originally posted by Reid:
Eugenics will be a staple of biotechnology in the coming decades


No it won't be, but please create a new thread citing evidence of actual scientists embracing actual eugenics.
2014-04-21, 3:18 PM #48
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2014-04-21, 7:51 PM #49
Originally posted by Reid:
It is?

Eugenics will be a staple of biotechnology in the coming decades, it just won't be as dramatic or terrible as the Nazi regime or the Spartan baby killing (which was probably not true as there is no archaeological evidence).


There is a crucial and fundamental difference between eugenics and genetic engineering.
Also, "not as dramatic or terrible as the Nazi regime" is a grotesquely low benchmark. The US went there already during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The county I grew up in (and this is in the midwest, not the south even) had annual "best white baby" competitions at the county fairs even back in the 20s or so.
Hitler's ideas didn't just spontaneously generate in a vacuum.


Quote:
I'm failing to see where fascism applies to ancient Greek culture.


He may be thinking about the Etruscans and/or Romans.
Also, I can kill you with my brain.
2014-04-21, 8:25 PM #50
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2014-04-21, 8:45 PM #51
I'm not talking about the actual historical culture. I'm talking about the movie.
>>untie shoes
2014-04-21, 9:37 PM #52
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2014-04-22, 6:28 AM #53
Originally posted by Reid:
Do you think that genetic engineering will be used on humans? If a genetic disease can be eradicated through engineering, I see no reason why this technology should not be made capable. Of course, I see no reason why it should be enforced, either. Maybe I'm too broad of what I think of when I say "eugenics", because if it's only meaning is essentially Nazism, then I don't really agree with it.

China doesn't seem to be against the idea of finding a heritable G-factor and human gene engineering.


Eugenics isn't just a matter of human genetic engineering, it is specifically (in part) a framework/idealogy wherein the human gene is intended to be "improved" and "purified" (ie made more Nordic and/or Aryan) via dictating who is and is not desirable and/or allowed to breed and contribute to the gene pool. The US actually spearheaded the movement back around 1900 and served as a role model to other countries (ie a study which determined the most efficient means of euthanizing undesirables was via gas chamber), but even in the 19.th century there was early work to eg start sterilizing and/or euthanizing neuro-atypical individuals (especially in institutions and/or prisons. Institutional sterilization at least still is practiced to some degree). The idea of "lesser races" and stricter immigration and miscegenation controls was a fairly natural outgrowth of it.

So no. Not just genetic engineering among humans.

Quote:
The idea of fascism just doesn't really translate, because the sociopolitical conditions weren't around then. There certainly are parallels in idea, though, between Spartan militarism and fascism. Roman culture would be closer.

Well, Roman culture (via the Etruscans) is literally where the fasces originated, including practices such as dictatum where during times of war or emergency powers like corporal punishment became the sole purview of a particular military leader.
Also, I can kill you with my brain.
2014-04-22, 7:07 AM #54
So... how 'bout that rape scene guys?
Author of the JK levels:
Sand Trap & Sand Trap (Night)

2014-04-22, 8:00 AM #55
A shocking development. A guy who has sex with his sister and attempts to murder a child to hide it is still actually a bad person.

EDIT: And I've said that to say this: If you think the character we saw in the first episode is redeemable, but you don't think the character we saw this Sunday is redeemable, then I don't know what to tell you.
>>untie shoes
2014-04-22, 8:55 AM #56
Originally posted by Antony:
A shocking development. A guy who has sex with his sister and attempts to murder a child to hide it is still actually a bad person.

EDIT: And I've said that to say this: If you think the character we saw in the first episode is redeemable, but you don't think the character we saw this Sunday is redeemable, then I don't know what to tell you.


I actually don't really care, I was simply trying to get the conversation back onto the topic of the thread. I really don't believe it was intended to be rape, more just a sign of him trying to take control of the situation. He was tired of listening to her BS and wanted to accomplish what he's been trying to accomplish ever since arriving back in King's Landing.

She clearly enjoyed it, I'm sure she's into that kind of thing (as evidenced in the tower scene in the first episode).
Author of the JK levels:
Sand Trap & Sand Trap (Night)

2014-04-22, 9:09 AM #57
I do agree that it probably kind of came off wrong. I know the showrunners said it wasn't intended to be a rape scene, but they might be backpedaling. It's hard to tell.

At the same time, I find it really amusing that people are up in arms over it because the show portrays it differently than the books. If you're up to date on the books, and you're still expecting this to be a story where absolutely anything happens the way you want it to, you should probably seek entertainment elsewhere. Now you know how the people who haven't read the books feel each Sunday.

In short: DWI. Jaime Lannister is a bad person. Game of Thrones is not a feel good series.
>>untie shoes
2014-04-22, 9:30 AM #58
Originally posted by Antony:
Game of Thrones is not a feel good series.


Unless you're Oberyn in a brothel.
Author of the JK levels:
Sand Trap & Sand Trap (Night)

2014-04-22, 12:04 PM #59
What about if you're Oberyn in a trial?
>>untie shoes
2014-04-22, 12:19 PM #60
Originally posted by Antony:
What about if you're Oberyn in a trial?


<---- is not a reader of the books, so I can't really comment on that one. I'm assuming he's not getting any P & V at the trial though.
Author of the JK levels:
Sand Trap & Sand Trap (Night)

2014-04-22, 4:31 PM #61
Originally posted by Antony:
I do agree that it probably kind of came off wrong. I know the showrunners said it wasn't intended to be a rape scene, but they might be backpedaling. It's hard to tell.


It's a little mixed. From the Washington Post:

Quote:
Director Alex Graves told Alan Sepinwall of Hitfix that “Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle.” By contrast, critic Sean Collins was listening through the episode commentary and flagged David Benioff, who is one of the “Game of Thrones” show-runners and who co-wrote the episode, describing the events rather differently. ”It becomes a really kind of horrifying scene, because you see, obviously, Joffrey’s body right there, and you see that Cersei is resisting this. She’s saying no, and he’s forcing himself on her,” Benioff said. “So it was a really uncomfortable scene, and a tricky scene to shoot.”I tend not to care very much about what showrunners, writers, or directors think they are doing in a given scene once an episode is out of the gate. Stories are like Dany’s dragons: Once hatched, they are beautiful and terrible spectacles that soar out of control of their progenitors. But if we are trying to divine how “Game of Thrones” will proceed from this dramatic alteration to its source material, it is a relief to see that the actual showrunner for the series shares the understanding that what happened on Sunday was horrifying, that he knows that Cersei’s repeated “no” means no. As much as I dislike this parsing of creators’ motivations and understandings of what they have let loose on all of us, this disparity between Graves and Benioff is revealing not just as tea leaves for the future of the show, but as a reflection of a debate that surfaced among viewers immediately on the episode’s conclusion.
2014-04-22, 5:04 PM #62
Originally posted by Antony:
I do agree that it probably kind of came off wrong. I know the showrunners said it wasn't intended to be a rape scene, but they might be backpedaling. It's hard to tell.


I'm not sure how else they could frame it given that she was protesting consistently the entire scene. That is literally the opposite of consent.
Also, I can kill you with my brain.
2014-04-22, 8:42 PM #63
Originally posted by Dormouse:
I'm not sure how else they could frame it given that she was protesting consistently the entire scene. That is literally the opposite of consent.


Absolutely. I have just rewatched this scene, literally half a minute ago, and there is not even the slightest indication during any part of that scene that Cersei consented to sex with Jaime. If the showrunners themselves think this isn't a rape scene, they're wrong.

I've got more observations to follow, I just wanted to register this particular opinion while it was fresh.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2014-04-23, 12:59 PM #64
Originally posted by Dark__Knight:
So... how 'bout that rape scene guys?


What about it? Are stories not allowed to depict bad things?
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2014-04-23, 1:02 PM #65
Originally posted by Freelancer:
What about it? Are stories not allowed to depict bad things?

Seriously? You don't have any idea why people might want to talk about it?
2014-04-23, 2:36 PM #66
game of

thrawns
COUCHMAN IS BACK BABY
2014-04-23, 4:16 PM #67
Originally posted by Freelancer:
What about it? Are stories not allowed to depict bad things?


There are literally no people who have watched the show for this long and are saying that.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2014-04-27, 9:11 PM #68
I said I'd say more about the rape scene, but I don't want to. Some serious **** went down at the end of tonight's episode and I'm way more interested in what it tells us about the White Walkers.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2014-04-28, 4:07 AM #69
Am I the only one who thought he looked like Darth Maul? :P
$do || ! $do ; try
try: command not found
Ye Olde Galactic Empire Mission Editor (X-wing, TIE, XvT/BoP, XWA)
2014-04-30, 6:50 AM #70
now we know how an white walker babby is formed, i guess
2014-04-30, 6:53 AM #71
still not sure how girl get pragnent
2014-04-30, 7:42 PM #72
Originally posted by Darkjedibob:
Am I the only one who thought he looked like Darth Maul? :P


Absolutely not. Darth Maul but afflicted with whatever that genetic mutation is that produces white tigers.

So there are some pretty good reasons from outside either this week's episode or the books to think that we know exactly who that White Walker, or White Walker-like character, is. I won't get into those reasons, which are easy enough to Google, and I'll spoiler the revelation in case anyone wants to avoid finding out:

He's probably the Night's King, from the legend Nan told Bran way back at the beginning. According to the legend, he was a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch thousands of years ago who fell in love with a woman matching the physical description of a Walker, the ruled over the Nightfort on the Wall before being defeated by Joramun and an unnamed King in the North. Like Craster, the Night's King was making human sacrifices to the Walkers. Up until now, there was no real reason to think this legend mattered much, in part because there's so much lore in the series that it's impossible to tell a Chekhov's gun from a red herring until the gun is actually fired.

That aside, obviously just the fact of the White Walkers taking Craster's sons as sacrifices is probably a bigger deal than most of us thought; there was never any suggestion in the books as far as I remember that we ought to take the sacrifices at anything more than face value.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2014-05-05, 4:08 PM #73
HODOR!
"Guns don't kill people, I kill people."
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