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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Has anyone heard anything about that Palladium thing that Microsoft is developing?
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Has anyone heard anything about that Palladium thing that Microsoft is developing?
2004-01-13, 7:50 AM #1
I've heard that they recently changed its name to Windows longhorn, and they intend it to be the next windows generation released after XP.

A friend of mine that is knowledgeable in this sort of thing sent me an e-mail that told me about the disasterous things that longhorn is capable of doing. The E-mail is very lengthy, so I won't post the whole thing unless someone here wants to read it.

Here's the bottom line:

Windows Longhorn will be a so-called "Trusted Computing" (TC) enabled system. Quoting from the E-mail:

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">

TC provides a computing platform on which you can't tamper with the application software, and where these applications can communicate securely with their authors and with each other. The original motivation was digital rights management (DRM): Disney will be able to sell you DVDs that will decrypt and run on a TC platform, but which you won't be able to copy. The music industry will be able to sell you music downloads that you won't be able to swap. They will be able to sell you CDs that you'll only be able to play three times, or only on your birthday. All sorts of new marketing possibilities will open up.

TC will also make it much harder for you to run unlicensed software. In the first version of TC, pirate software could be detected and deleted remotely. Since then, Microsoft has sometimes denied that it intended TC to do this, but at WEIS 2003 a senior Microsoft manager refused to deny that fighting piracy was a goal: `Helping people to run stolen software just isn't our aim in life', he said. The mechanisms now proposed are more subtle, though. TC will protect application software registration mechanisms, so that unlicensed software will be locked out of the new ecology. Furthermore, TC apps will work better with other TC apps, so people will get less value from old non-TC apps (including pirate apps). Also, some TC apps may reject data from old apps whose serial numbers have been blacklisted. If Microsoft believes that your copy of Office is a pirate copy, and your local government moves to TC, then the documents you file with them may be unreadable. TC will also make it easier for people to rent software rather than buy it; and if you stop paying the rent, then not only does the software stop working but so may the files it created. So if you stop paying for upgrades to Media Player, you may lose access to all the songs you bought using it.

For years, Bill Gates has dreamed of finding a way to make the Chinese pay for software: TC looks like being the answer to his prayer.

There are many other possibilities. Governments will be able to arrange things so that all Word documents created on civil servants' PCs are `born classified' and can't be leaked electronically to journalists. Auction sites might insist that you use trusted proxy software for bidding, so that you can't bid tactically at the auction. Cheating at computer games could be made more difficult.

There are some gotchas too. For example, TC can support remote censorship. In its simplest form, applications may be designed to delete pirated music under remote control. For example, if a protected song is extracted from a hacked TC platform and made available on the web as an MP3 file, then TC-compliant media player software may detect it using a watermark, report it, and be instructed remotely to delete it (as well as all other material that came through that platform). This business model, called traitor tracing, has been researched extensively by Microsoft (and others). In general, digital objects created using TC systems remain under the control of their creators, rather than under the control of the person who owns the machine on which they happen to be stored (as at present). So someone who writes a paper that a court decides is defamatory can be compelled to censor it - and the software company that wrote the word processor could be ordered to do the deletion if she refuses. Given such possibilities, we can expect TC to be used to suppress everything from pornography to writings that criticise political leaders.

The gotcha for businesses is that your software suppliers can make it much harder for you to switch to their competitors' products. At a simple level, Word could encrypt all your documents using keys that only Microsoft products have access to; this would mean that you could only read them using Microsoft products, not with any competing word processor. Such blatant lock-in might be prohibited by the competition authorities, but there are subtler lock-in strategies that are much harder to regulate. (I'll explain some of them below.)

3. So I won't be able to play MP3s on my computer any more?

With existing MP3s, you may be all right for some time. Microsoft says that TC won't make anything suddenly stop working. But a recent software update for Windows Media Player has caused controversy by insisting that users agree to future anti-piracy measures, which may include measures that delete pirated content found on your computer. Also, some programs that give people more control over their PCs, such as VMware and Total Recorder, are not going to work properly under TC. So you may have to use a different player - and if your player will play pirate MP3s, then it may not be authorised to play the new, protected, titles.

It is up to an application to set the security policy for its files, using an online policy server. So Media Player will determine what sort of conditions get attached to protected titles. I expect Microsoft will do all sorts of deals with the content providers, who will experiment with all sorts of business models. You might get CDs that are a third of the price but which you can only play three times; if you pay the other two-thirds, you'd get full rights. You might be allowed to lend your copy of some digital music to a friend, but then your own backup copy won't be playable until your friend gives you the main copy back. More likely, you'll not be able to lend music at all. Creeping digital lockdown will make life inconvenient in many niggling ways; for example, regional coding might stop you watching the Polish version of a movie if your PC was bought outside Europe.

This could all be done today - Microsoft would just have to download a patch into your player - but once TC makes it hard for people to tamper with the player software, and easy for Microsoft and the music industry to control what players will work at all with new releases, it will be harder for you to escape. Control of media player software is so important that the EU antitrust authorities are proposing to penalise Microsoft for its anticompetitive behaviour by compelling it to unbundle Media Player, or include competing players in Windows. TC will greatly increase the depth and scope of media control. </font>



The scary part is that this system can be implemented under the name of "homeland security" while blatantly ignoring the rights of the user.

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Most people regard me as the dark and immoral side of Massassi. At least I'm getting what I want out of life.

[This message has been edited by Pagewizard_YKS (edited January 13, 2004).]
2004-01-13, 8:05 AM #2
I love how none of this effects me. [http://forums.massassi.net/html/smile.gif]


BTW, this is ooooolllllddd news. MS started spewing crap about Palladium ~2 years ago.

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The future is here, and all bets are off.
And when the moment is right, I'm gonna fly a kite.
2004-01-13, 8:10 AM #3
Yup... it's time to switch to Linux.

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2004-01-13, 8:54 AM #4
Yeah, and it's been longhorn for nearly as long. [http://forums.massassi.net/html/biggrin.gif]

Anyway, wrong GBK. I believe that if servers started using this technology, then you couldn't access it unless you could fake the code thing it sends out. And so eventually more and more people will switch over, until the Linux internet becomes hosted on a few, completely independent servers. (And this new tech. IS more secure, so people will want to switch over.)

Anyway, that's what I gathered from my memory. I might be a bit rusty.

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2004-01-13, 8:58 AM #5
IF that ever comes to fruition, Microsoft will fail, miserably. The incompatibilites that would be introduced would kill all business productivity, meaning businesses would no longer buy Microsoft software, and everyone would move on to Linux. Windows developers would flock to linux, updates would be on a hour-to-hour basis, games would come out for Linux, emachines would begin shipping with RedHat, and instead of discussing which version of windows sucks, we'd all be sitting here saying that such and such distro is bloated.

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.hack//SIGN - The World - Just Believe

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2004-01-13, 9:00 AM #6
^^^

I want what ever he's smoking!

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2004-01-13, 9:39 AM #7
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tsukasa:
IF that ever comes to fruition, Microsoft will fail, miserably. The incompatibilites that would be introduced would kill all business productivity, meaning businesses would no longer buy Microsoft software, and everyone would move on to Linux. Windows developers would flock to linux, updates would be on a hour-to-hour basis, games would come out for Linux, emachines would begin shipping with RedHat, and instead of discussing which version of windows sucks, we'd all be sitting here saying that such and such distro is bloated.

</font>


No, b/c microsoft will pay the media to say that longhorn is the best thing ever to happen to the PC, and most people are either naive enough or stupid enough to believe it. Once people find out the truth about it's disasterous potential, it will be very difficult (if not impossible) to go back.

Also, expect all these big-brother functions in longhorn to be used to their fullest. Big businesses like the RIAA would sell their proverbial souls to have those controls hardwired into a future OS that most people will use. Given how petty and greedy the RIAA has been lately about so-called piracy, who expects for a minute that they (or other companies like them) won't use these big brother functions to the fullest?

Also, what if Microsoft pays off linux to install some TC components in the next linux release? Microsoft easily has the financial resources to do that. Microsoft just would keep offering more money until Linux accepts. That would get linux out of the picture entirely or degrade it to the point of making it compatible with Longhorn.

The only thing left in this bleak situation would be to use some sort of underground OS developed by pissed-off former windows/linux users.

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Most people regard me as the dark and immoral side of Massassi. At least I'm getting what I want out of life.

[This message has been edited by Pagewizard_YKS (edited January 13, 2004).]
2004-01-13, 9:50 AM #8
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by happydud:
Yeah, and it's been longhorn for nearly as long. [http://forums.massassi.net/html/biggrin.gif]

Anyway, wrong GBK. I believe that if servers started using this technology, then you couldn't access it unless you could fake the code thing it sends out. And so eventually more and more people will switch over, until the Linux internet becomes hosted on a few, completely independent servers. (And this new tech. IS more secure, so people will want to switch over.)
</font>


Wrong.


If MS could ensure that noone can pirate their software, then they will start charging obscene amounts of money for it. And if you think they wont, your a fool.


Cost is one of the biggest factors that drive companies to Linux. (MS always rants about how their software is sooo much cheaper due to 'cost of ownership', but thats a load of bull. If youve got a load of sysadmins who've never seen Linux before in their lives, and tell them to install it and build a network, then yeah, its gona be a mess. But if you hand the task off to guys who know what the hell they are doing, to guys who _know_ linux, then they can get the job done faster and cheaper than any MS chump could.) When MS starts jacking up the price, itll drive companies and governments away from them. I mean, how long do you think itll be before a single liscense for a MS workstation/home OS costs over $500? Or $1000? MS would love that, it would really help to keep Bill Gates out of the poor house.


..But beyond that, we eont be seeing the Internet being taken over by this abomonation. It just wont happen. Most the software that runs the internet today isnt MS, and it wont be in 5 years. As far as remote access goes, this abmonination will NOT make MS more secure. IIS will still be as unsecure and full of holes as ever, the OS itself will still be susceptable to who-knows-how-many remote exploits, and the system itself will still be unstable.


Crap, this is turning into a rant... Well, you get my point.

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The future is here, and all bets are off.
And when the moment is right, I'm gonna fly a kite.
2004-01-13, 9:58 AM #9
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Pagewizard_YKS:
...Also, what if Microsoft pays off linux to install some TC components in the next linux release? Microsoft easily has the financial resources to do that. Microsoft just would keep offering more money until Linux accepts. That would get linux out of the picture entirely or degrade it to the point of making it compatible with Longhorn. ...</font>



Ahh, a clear sign of someone who hasnt the fairest idea of what Linux is.


Linux isnt really an OS. Its just a kernel. A part of an operating system. Add the GNU utilities, a window manager, and bingo, an OS.

Linus Torvalds has the ultimate say of what goes into the Linux kernel. If he doesnt like it, it doesnt go in. And I know, as fact, that he will NOT put *ANYTHING* like Palladium in the Linux kernel. He just wont. And if Im not mistaken, he has said that on more than one occasion.

Distros (Redhat, Mandrake, et al) just take the kernel, add the utilities, a few iwndow managers, an installer, and then ship it out. Even if one of them does add some sneaky code, all of their souce is public. Somone will notice. And even so, there are *many* more distro out there. Heck, you dont even need a distro, you can build a Linux system from scratch.

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The future is here, and all bets are off.
And when the moment is right, I'm gonna fly a kite.
2004-01-13, 10:01 AM #10
happydud, are you to have me believe that -anything- created by microsoft is "more secure" than linux? Half their justification is the rampant virii running around.

Most people don't get the implications of this. You will try to download and install Jed, for example. The OPERATING SYSTEM will fail to run it because it's not "digitally signed" - and the only way to digitally sign something is to *gasp* pay money to microsoft.

Microsoft is using this as another tactic to make money. Sure they're doing it slowly and one step at a time, but when they're done, computing will be completely different. They will not only be making money on end-users, but they will be making money DIRECTLY from software developers as well. You think if LucasArts has to pay xxx millions to get their game digitally signed, the price of the game won't go up for consumers? Gimme a break. It will also kill tons of the small shareware companies that I buy software from on a regular basis (editplus, for example). Anyone who doesn't pay the fee to have their code signed (and of course copied illegally) by microsoft won't be able to distribute their software. Well, they can distribute it, but people can't install it w/out microsofts permission.
2004-01-13, 10:15 AM #11
http://antitcpa.alsherok.net/companylist.php

On what platform are you going to run linux if AMD and Intel take part in tcpa

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Of war, we don't speak anymore
2004-01-13, 10:21 AM #12
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Molgrew:
http://antitcpa.alsherok.net/companylist.php

On what platform are you going to run linux if AMD and Intel take part in tcpa

</font>


What purpose does that link serve?

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.hack//SIGN - The World - Just Believe

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[This message has been edited by Tsukasa (edited January 13, 2004).]
.hack//SIGN - The World - Just Believe

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2004-01-13, 10:23 AM #13
Thanks Brian, I forgot about that aspect... [http://forums.massassi.net/html/redface.gif]


Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Molgrew:
On what platform are you going to run linux if AMD and Intel take part in tcpa</font>


Transmeta...

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The future is here, and all bets are off.

[This message has been edited by GBK (edited January 13, 2004).]
And when the moment is right, I'm gonna fly a kite.
2004-01-13, 10:32 AM #14
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tsukasa:
What purpose does that link serve?

</font>



Well, from my wording you could infer that it presents a list of companies involved in TCPA

(even nVidia is there)
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Of war, we don't speak anymore

[This message has been edited by Molgrew (edited January 13, 2004).]
2004-01-13, 10:48 AM #15
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GBK:
I love how none of this effects me. [http://forums.massassi.net/html/smile.gif]


BTW, this is ooooolllllddd news. MS started spewing crap about Palladium ~2 years ago.

</font>


Nope, trusted computing is in the hardware too. Also, if alot of files get digitally signed, you wont be coming anywhere near them.

Funny thing to note, they first tried this with WHQL: they wanted everyone to pay to have their drivers signed.

The outcome? Well, the last few drivers I've had have specific instructions telling you to click "CONTINUE ANYWAY"....


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2004-01-13, 10:55 AM #16
Soon enough (soon as in many years) hard drives will end up with this 'technology' and other computer parts. Then if you don't use these parts in your computer, you be 'breaking' a law of some sort and will be labeled a criminal of something.

Computing is going in the wrong direction if this takes hold...

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2004-01-13, 11:52 AM #17
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oSiRiS:
Nope, trusted computing is in the hardware too. </font>


Yes, but it can be disabled. Or, at least thats what the TCPA specs say. And beyond that, are they going to force me to upgrade? No.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Also, if alot of files get digitally signed, you wont be coming anywhere near them.</font>


And as someone here once said, God bless the hackers that will set us free. Someone will write a decoder, you know they will. Its only a matter of time.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Funny thing to note, they first tried this with WHQL: they wanted everyone to pay to have their drivers signed.

The outcome? Well, the last few drivers I've had have specific instructions telling you to click "CONTINUE ANYWAY"....
</font>


Ive seen that before too. Do you honestly believe it will be any different with applications?

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The future is here, and all bets are off.
And when the moment is right, I'm gonna fly a kite.
2004-01-13, 12:27 PM #18
Ok, so the technology is worrying, but could someone please explain that bit about how the government would now be able to break the first amendment because of an OS? 'Cause that didn't make a damn bit of sense, no matter how paranoid you are.
2004-01-13, 12:41 PM #19
When they come out with this, if it is in fact embaeded into hardware I will just pe computing on a P4 with a GF 5600 and the latest version of linux... there is no way I am going anywhere near anything that has that kind of bull**** technology in it.

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2004-01-13, 12:47 PM #20
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Cheating at computer games could be made more difficult.
</font>

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...etc.


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2004-01-13, 12:59 PM #21
Companies like Sun will start to make processor for PC's and more people will buy them. They will become bigger companies thatn they already are and thier products, as a result, will become better.
Both Intel and AMD should be carefull. They should provide both kinds of processors (which they probably won't). And if they don't what you will see is a growing number of people who know and understand these things sticking with the last available non-paladium hardware for thier comps until something new becomes available.

If MS were actually in it to make the web/computing more secure, they would allow digital signing by small shareware/freeware companies for no fee at all. Obviously they'd have to prove themselves. Like the the example Brian gave, Editplus, they could prove themselves by track record.

It's a tough one, and with the growing number of Linux users, the percentage of people who will not put up with MS's tactics is also growing.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.
2004-01-13, 4:24 PM #22
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Brian:
happydud, are you to have me believe that -anything- created by microsoft is "more secure" than linux? Half their justification is the rampant virii running around.</font>


Nonononononono, completely missed my point. What I was trying to say is that (now, my information is a wee bit old and rusty) it would be more secure than windows is now, and it wouldn't allow non-signed programs to run, and then they'd spread some sort of propaganda that this lowers security risks and the chances of getting a virus..

I'm not making any sense. I'm going to sleep. I'll see if I can salvage this post in the morning.

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2004-01-13, 4:37 PM #23
What you guys aren't understand is, *Gasp* this may NOT be true. Take it in stride people, it's been rumor for years now. It'll be another 5-10 years before we even see the first SIGNS of this kinda stuff. By then, hackers will control the computer market anyways, and it'll just be flushed out. Microsoft's days are limited as a monopoly, and not just by linux, but by the future.

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D E A T H
2004-01-13, 4:41 PM #24
You don't get it, Evad, the idea that -Microsoft- should be certifying -anyone's- software as secure or compatible or whatever is completely off the wall. They charge billions to the government for license fees, and yet they are responsible for billions in losses every time a stupid outlook worm spreads. And you think their "certification" will mean anything? (apart from the fact that whoever is "certified" will have paid a lot of money...)
2004-01-13, 5:05 PM #25
When they mean "cheating in games" do they mean its harder to hack into a game?

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2004-01-13, 5:46 PM #26
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Slug:
Ok, so the technology is worrying, but could someone please explain that bit about how the government would now be able to break the first amendment because of an OS? 'Cause that didn't make a damn bit of sense, no matter how paranoid you are.</font>



The feds have been wiping their a**es with the constitution ever since 9-11. Nothing is sacred when it stands in the way of so-called National security.

The whole point of palladium is to make the already rich Microsoft Execs even richer. Any developer that wants to distribute will have to buy developmental tools (no doubt Micros*** will only certify their own product line, Borland C++ users will then be out of luck) and then buy the right to publish their own software on the internet.

Anyone that is remotely tech-savvy will know that Longhorn will be the plague from hell when it is finally released, and the worst part is that all the millions of clueless Joe Schumps out there will still buy it anyway, not really knowing that they are buying something that will ultimately give nothing to them. A once harmonious computing environment will be reduced to nightmarish series of incompatibilities almost overnight. The software market will be greatly diminished, and prices will go through the roof, which will ironically lead to more piracy, which is what all these uber-paranoid security measures are supposed to prevent. [http://forums.massassi.net/html/rolleyes.gif]

It's amazing that the companies never thought of simply lowering their prices. If good software became reasonable enough for the average user to easily afford, piracy would no longer be practical.



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Most people regard me as the dark and immoral side of Massassi. At least I'm getting what I want out of life.

[This message has been edited by Pagewizard_YKS (edited January 13, 2004).]
2004-01-13, 6:12 PM #27
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GBK:


Linus Torvalds has the ultimate say of what goes into the Linux kernel. If he doesnt like it, it doesnt go in. And I know, as fact, that he will NOT put *ANYTHING* like Palladium in the Linux kernel. He just wont. And if Im not mistaken, he has said that on more than one occasion.

</font>


As much as I hate to admit it, a verbal promise is not exactly binding anymore today in business. it should be, but it isn't.

Everyone has their price, even Torvalds. If Microsoft wanted it bad enough, they would probably be willing to offer Torvalds however much money it takes. MS has cash to burn, we all know that. Also, we all know MS well enough to know that since they put so much time into making longhorn the monopoly-enforcing war machine that they want it to be, what are the odds that they will let the windows crowd defect to linux? I wouldn't count on it.

If everyone knew what Longhorn really was, then I predict that the blood of microsoft execs would soon be flowing ankle-deep through the streets of Redmond.


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Most people regard me as the dark and immoral side of Massassi. At least I'm getting what I want out of life.

[This message has been edited by Pagewizard_YKS (edited January 13, 2004).]
2004-01-13, 6:15 PM #28
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Pagewizard_YKS:
Everyone has their price, even Torvalds.</font>


I disagree with both of those. It's one thing to get paid to do something stupid to make a fool of yourself (e.g. Fear Factor), it's another to get paid to make millions or billions of people hate you and feel betrayed...

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
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2004-01-13, 6:36 PM #29
What you don't get about Linux, is that although Linus made it, it isn't controlled by him. He makes the kernels, which unless I'm mistaken can be viewed in source and edited if one so chooses. Then, no matter how much money Microsoft gave Linus, he couldn't do jack squat about ****. Even if he sold out, people would just hack the kernels and build their own, keeping the Linux community alive.

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D E A T H
2004-01-13, 6:40 PM #30
Hmmm...lesse. Intel and AMD are both going to use this TCPA along with a litany of other well-known hardware manufacturers. It was mentioned that Sun could produce a non-TCPA chip for those "disgusted" with this TCPA and market it out. Yes, this could work, but Intel and AMD have much more of a name than Sun does. Thus Sun has to overcome the Intel/AMD recognition. Same goes true with any "offshoot" hardware manufacturer (e.g. nVidia/ATI) who tries to market non-TCPA.

Let's jump to the Software aspect. Buisnesses will probably frown at this TCPA and jump to Linux. Then again, there is always the stubborn company that will swear by MS products. The end user is too dumb to realize what is going on. They will see flashy new MS product with "secure" features. Make it look good and say "trusted/secure" in the product and you have 85% sales all ready.

Suppose, that the public is sold on this Paladium/TCPA thing and demand it left and right. Well other software manufacturers are going to need to have their software digitally signed otherwise they go to what...Linux? How many end-users use that OS? They have a broader base with buisness yes.

In short, I can see this as damn good buisness strategy on MS's behalf if the "status quo" is maintained (we all buy Inter/AMD chips, nVidia/ATI cards, etc.) and the public bedazzled.

Damn I wish I had thought of this.

[edit: By no means am I starting a flame war about this. It is just an observation.]
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[This message has been edited by Gandalf1120 (edited January 13, 2004).]
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2004-01-13, 7:29 PM #31
..Riiight. I really don't think any government would let one company (ie. Microsoft) control nationwide computing. That's just ****ing ridiculous. For one it would cause chaos for the economy, and would make Microsoft the worlds largest monopoly.
If anything like was to ever happen (probably just after God gets his nipples pierced, I'm sure) they would not only have control over every end user, but every company, and holy ****, even every government. (provided all these people were stupid enough to buy into Microsoft's demented idea of a "better future")

It will never happen. It just sounds like drivel from the mind of a paranoid conspiracy-theorist. (Or perhaps an ingenious marketing tool?) And even if the delusional concept was put into play, it would fail very, very quickly. The only people that would by an OS with "TC" would be over-protective mothers scared their children are going to go on a killing spree after a little GTA.

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"When all else fails, eat pie."
thoughts from beyond observance

[This message has been edited by Jin (edited January 13, 2004).]
2004-01-13, 9:40 PM #32
That email looks at first glance to be a copy of the TCPA FAQ written by Dr Ross Anderson. Link provided so people who've not heard of this before can go and verify that it is happening.

I was going to direct you to the section where he points out that Linux users will be stuck, but on skimming through it I can't find it.
2004-01-13, 11:44 PM #33
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Pagewizard_YKS:

The feds have been wiping their a**es with the constitution ever since 9-11. Nothing is sacred when it stands in the way of so-called National security.
</font>

... I'm still not impressed.. You're telling me that the most powerful government on Earth requires the ability to remotely delete a file in order to censor someone if they want to? I'm not saying our government never blocks free speech, I'm just saying that Longhorn isn't going to launch an Orwellian dystopia.. Believe me, if the government wants to silence you, they won't be going through Microsoft to do so. I mean, hell, they're gonna delete a file that could already be on a floppy disc or printed out, and call it a day?
2004-01-14, 3:38 AM #34
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Pagewizard_YKS:
No, b/c microsoft will pay the media to say that longhorn is the best thing ever to happen to the PC, and most people are either naive enough or stupid enough to believe it. Once people find out the truth about it's disasterous potential, it will be very difficult (if not impossible) to go back.


</font>


Not difficult at all.


format c

y


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"In the memory you'll find me. Eyes burning up.
The darkness holding me tightly.
Untill the sun rises up."

[EDIT: If I'm not mistaken pagewizard, linux isn't a set group, theres tons of diffrent groups making many diffrent distros, its open-source.]

[This message has been edited by Oberfeldwebell (edited January 14, 2004).]
*insert some joke about pasta and fruit scuffles*
2004-01-14, 3:49 AM #35
GBK, once again, you're missing the point. You can't hack this, it works with the hardware. You know how they couldn't get linux on an Xbox until they found a bug in a program that was already digitally signed?

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Ω of 14
Half-Life 2 Central: your definitive source for everything HL2!
New! Fun removed by Vinny :[
2004-01-14, 3:51 AM #36
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You don't get it, Evad, the idea that -Microsoft- should be certifying -anyone's- software as secure or compatible or whatever is completely off the wall. They charge billions to the government for license fees, and yet they are responsible for billions in losses every time a stupid outlook worm spreads. And you think their "certification" will mean anything? (apart from the fact that whoever is "certified" will have paid a lot of money...)</font>

But I do. In principal the idea has it's merits. We know it won't work. But if it did, it would be a great thing.
It's like the American dream. You see that family standing there, like in the 50's. Car in the driveway, dad on his way out the door to work, mom getting the kids off to school. 'You could be president if you tried.' It's a great idea in principal but it doesn't work because there's a virus that spreads itself every 4 years (the 2 big ones are the democrats and the republicans).

I think MS can spread that kind of stuff with Paladium, make it sound plausible, and get away with it on the whole.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.
2004-01-14, 3:53 AM #37
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Pagewizard_YKS:
what are the odds that they will let the windows crowd defect to linux? I wouldn't count on it.
</font>


Uh, you do realize that theres a power button on the front of your computer, and that your not under MS mind control?

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"In the memory you'll find me. Eyes burning up.
The darkness holding me tightly.
Untill the sun rises up."
*insert some joke about pasta and fruit scuffles*
2004-01-14, 4:00 AM #38
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Slug:
Quote:
Originally posted by Pagewizard_YKS:

The feds have been wiping their a**es with the constitution ever since 9-11. Nothing is sacred when it stands in the way of so-called National security.
</font>

... I'm still not impressed.. You're telling me that the most powerful government on Earth requires the ability to remotely delete a file in order to censor someone if they want to? I'm not saying our government never blocks free speech, I'm just saying that Longhorn isn't going to launch an Orwellian dystopia.. Believe me, if the government wants to silence you, they won't be going through Microsoft to do so. I mean, hell, they're gonna delete a file that could already be on a floppy disc or printed out, and call it a day?[/B]



Hes right, they silenced plenty of people in russia, and they didn't need computers to do it.


The truth is folks, We can always form our own networks. Theres really nothing to fear BUT, I will say. tread cautiously, Everyone could say "Naw, this won't happen" and it will, then again, everyone can say it will, and it won't.

Kick back, relax. drink some water and talk about it to your friends and enjoy the ride.

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"In the memory you'll find me. Eyes burning up.
The darkness holding me tightly.
Untill the sun rises up."
*insert some joke about pasta and fruit scuffles*
2004-01-14, 4:02 AM #39
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oSiRiS:
GBK, once again, you're missing the point. You can't hack this, it works with the hardware. You know how they couldn't get linux on an Xbox until they found a bug in a program that was already digitally signed?

</font>



You can modify hardware. or even build your own, even though its expensive and tough, it can be done.

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"In the memory you'll find me. Eyes burning up.
The darkness holding me tightly.
Untill the sun rises up."
*insert some joke about pasta and fruit scuffles*
2004-01-14, 4:53 AM #40
I'm inclined to think that what really matters in the end is money. What comes to TCG and all those companies supposedly behind it, well, I think it's just glorified speeches. AMD and Intel are not so much in the software business (I think, correct me if I'm wrong), and I think they have made billions because pirates get new, good games free of charge, and thus they have plenty of saved money to buy the hardware the new pirated games need. The same goes for NVidia, for that matter, not to mention the manufacturers of HDs and CD/DVD writers...

It would take them lots of guts to cut that income just because Microsoft wants. They will do it exclusively only if USA, EU, Japan and China want it (and still they would let loopholes in).

And it would be a very strange thing of MS to make software that wouldn't run on any common processor or install on any common harddrive. They both have as much to lose. Yeah. Money speaks louder than conspiracies...

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This day we fight
Frozen in the past by ICARUS
12

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