two things
one- if bush is relected im officially moving to england or the moon or somewhere else
two-i think al quaeda is already dead and gone, if anything, bush is probably paying people to make it look like they arent

also bush has rattled the constitution so full of holes...better enjoy democracy while it lasts

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Sometimes you drink the milk, sometimes the milk drinks you

Never mind the fact that history is /full/ of similar things to the patriot act or whatever. Nisei Internment Camps, McCarthyishm, Grandfather Clauses, anyone ?

Good luck blaming /those/ on Bush..

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
Applecore scowled. "What does that mean, 'real'? Amn't I real, you? If you cut me, do I not bleed? If you piss me off, will I not kick you up the arse?" -War of the Flowers
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

I'm with Dormouse on this one. Go read a history bok and you'll find pages full of things far worse than Bush has ever done.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Hopefully Bush's new space proposal will help you get to the Moon.

Alien and Sedition acts.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

I didnt know anyone actually visited my website!

I can see this Terrorism thing turning into a McCarthyism thing

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<< start the revolution >>

So what? We're trying to prevent more from happening!


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BV's rendition of Titanic: Let's have sex. I won't let go. I don't need this stone.
The End.
~ Wolfy

...and that makes it okay?

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Shut up. I'm GOING to do this whether you like it or not.

I'm more than willing to give up some "personal freedoms" if it means a greater safety for the country. It's not like your aren't already in a dozen databases as it is.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Personally, I would rather be killed in a terrorist attack than have my freedoms systematically stripped away all under the lie of improved national security. At least I would be dying free instead of living under the inevitable watchful eye of big brother.


I can see where this war on terrorism is going, and I don't like it. America will be "safe" only when it has been slowly changed to a dictatorship. All democracies fail-- it is inevitable according to Aristotle. [sp?] I learned that in Poli Sci last semester. It seems like our nation has been in decline ever since the 1950s.

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Most people regard me as the dark and immoral side of Massassi. At least I'm getting what I want out of life.



[This message has been edited by Pagewizard_YKS (edited January 12, 2004).]

1) Yeah, I'm just hoping the patriot act dosn't get fdr'd.

2) WTF people, Bush isn't looking to become an all powerful dictator; that's against his morals. It may be hard for you to understand this whole "morality" concept, but it does in fact guide some people's lives. I genuinely think he has our best interests at heart, I just don't think this is the way to look after them.

In short: put away your foil hats.

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Ω of 14
Half-Life 2 Central: your definitive source for everything HL2!

Brave New World is imo a far more likely outcome than 1984. In fact, go read Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman [written in 1985], it does an outstanding job of expounding on that idea.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
Applecore scowled. "What does that mean, 'real'? Amn't I real, you? If you cut me, do I not bleed? If you piss me off, will I not kick you up the arse?" -War of the Flowers
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

I can damn well try.

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MadQuack on Military school: Pro's: I get to shoot a gun. Con's: Everything else.
"I'm going to beat you until the laws of physics are violated!!" ! Maeve's Warcry

RIP -MaDaVentor-. You will be missed.

I hope he doesn't get re-elected, that way we (that is, the UK) can decide whether or not we want to go to war for once and can be a little independent - I'm not about to become a citizen of the 51st state thank you...

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"So... Graham Andrew Rutland [Gee_4ce]... well, it says here that Graham and Andrew mean... strong and manly!" - My girl Naomi whilst consulting a big book of names...

Like you said, you are not the Supreme Court Justices therefore you have no say whatsoever on whether he is in violation of any amendment or not.

Like osiris said, Bush only wants the best for us. Some of the comparisons and conclusions you people are drawing puts you on the list of those who deserve to be shot. Seriously, stop saying idiotic things like "Bush is hitler," "I hope he doesn't get reelected" or "If he gets reelected, I'm moving out of the country" because WE HEARD YOU THE FIRST 10 ****ING BILLION TIMES -- And your only making yourselves look pathetic.

Just a suggestion that has been suggested time and time again: Say something sensible.

[This message has been edited by Morfildor (edited January 13, 2004).]

Uh, are you ignorant or something? You'd be the 53rd, what with Canada and Mexico.

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<A HREF="http://www.rot13.com" TARGET=_blank>Wnav "Xebxb" Ghbzvara
w_ghbzvara@yhhxxh.pbz</A>

Finland's starting to look like a good 54th.



What does that mean?

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

Finland belongs to Sweden. Period.

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"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
-Robert Jastrow

I hope Bush doesnt get re-elected is a sensible statement. A non-sensible statement would be "I hope a bunch of badgers fly from his arse and kill him."

And to say Bush has high moral standards is true, if you believe in the same morals he does. Everything is black/white, alternative lifestyles is NOT a freedom enjoyed in this country, sneering/mocking at death-row inmates requesting clemency, covering up the facts leading into Iraq.


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<< start the revolution >>

You're making yourself look even worse by calling everyone idiots and saying people who disagree with you should be shot for having an opinion.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

Finland raped sweden's trees. Hehehe. Finnish Tree Rapers.

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GhostOfYoda - General doer of stuff.

I hope you know the song you used for the thread title is targeted against people who think like you schming.




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A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops.
On my desk I have a workstation...

haha, I know, but it gets the point across. And I'm actually anti-violence but pro-change. Ghandi.

and the song is actually saying, revolutions are ok, if you know what you're doing and if you're not just going around revolting for the sake of revolting.

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<< start the revolution >>

[This message has been edited by Schming (edited January 13, 2004).]

No, Flexor. Firstly, I have not called everyone idiots. Secondly, someone that has the opinion "Bush is hitler" does deserve to be shot. The expression explains that completely. Having an opinion has it's limits. You make it sound like having any opinion is okay, including such as "all the jews should be gassed" (using a hitler example again). Also, I did NOT say that saying things like "I hope Bush does not get reelected" is something someone should get shot for. Also, this has nothing to do with disagreements. It's an attempt to make a debate on these forums something other than a complete waste of webspace.

Schming - No, but someone repeating it countlessly when we know their standpoint AND saying that and nothing else (for example, reasons for not wanting him reelected) is not sensible.


[This message has been edited by Morfildor (edited January 13, 2004).]

I pretty well shot down Ubuu's thread about racism.

Why? The topic of race ends with everyone fighting.

This thread, although overemotional from the start, is about politics - another topic that inevitably ends in bickering and topic locking.

Come on, somebody start a religion thread and complete the trifecta of futile debate.

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Duel Zero : Released the beta. Probably the end of it. Not to worry though, I'm working on Randsaber, which is a lot better.

FDR passed a lot of "temporary" reforms. These "temporary" reforms are still here today.

I agree. We don't need people here that make asinine threats and never follow through with them..........

...........and that make completely ridiculous accusations like this

Bit paranoid are we?

The same thing that happened to Clinton is happening to Bush: he's being *******ized for being on the opposite party. I can GUARANTEE that if Bush were a Democrat, all you people flaming him would be worshipping him and if Clinton were a Republican, all you Clinton haters would be loving him right now. You people see everything in black and white too. Clinton generally kicked butt when it came to domestic policy, but when it came to foreign policy, he was afraid to touch it with a ten foot pole so he would settle for treaties and such that he didn't enforce. Bush has the safety of every citizen and their rights in mind when he makes foreign policy decisions, but I don't think he has any idea what he is doing when it comes to domestic issues.
You people that are just flaming the president (past or present, present in this "debate") with little regard to tact, reason, or compassion are just acting like babies and proving why the electoral collage can be a good thing (If someone votes like an emotional idiot, their vote can be cancelled out).

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I am the god of dating! You will respect my authoritah!

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited January 13, 2004).]

I don't guess you could explain why it's ridiculous? The obvious significance of airplanes to keeping our borders secure should be obvious, to say nothing of the recent scares about dirty bombs and hijackers flying in from France. Are your objections to this plan moral or practical? The scope of the plan is clearly limited - how does a database of airline passengers invite invasions of privacy in other areas? Do you think the plan would cost too much to implement? Just what freedoms are you going to buy a gun to protect? Nobody's infringing upon your right to be a knee-jerk reactionary.



Yeah, advocating armed revolution tends to not go over well with the government. Schenk v US. The instance in which a US citizen on US soil was classified as an enemy combatant was resolved by the Supreme Court. Just who's sidestepping the Constitution?



Yeah. Yeah. ... What? A dictator? Yeah, like when the Supreme Court ruled that holding Jose Padilla as an enemy combatant was unconstitutional. Straight out of Hitler's Germany, maaaaan.

... Making absurd moral comparisons won't make up for your lack of substantive complaints. Sorry.



... You still have the right to travel by air... the rest of your point is moot. I'll echo what bobafett765 said: I imagine you'd be at Bush's throat if another calamity befell New York or Los Angeles. Why, you might even suggest that the security measures in place are a complete waste!



I figured as much. One question, though: why the pretense of defending the Constitution if you have no regard for the lives of the people it's supposed to safeguard?



You very clearly don't - if you did, you might contribute something more than your "impression", which, I might add, is thoroughly wrong.



hey yea i heard bush planned 9-11, it wouldnt surprise me if he personally paid for those attacks in riyadh and the red crescent. maaaaaaaan

what



I'd rather that happen as well, but that's beside the point. Heaven forbid you should come up with an alternate way to safeguard against terrorist attacks - praying for martyrdom is so much more glamorous.



Dictatorship? Please name one instance in which elections have been cancelled or postponed. Just one.
Also, if our decent into an Aristotelian oligarchy is a foregone conclusion, why are you wasting your time and energy here? There are women to be conquered.



To paraphrase Lisa Simpson, the idea that you would invoke Gandhi makes me sick. Gandhi's movement was based on a little more than vague complaints and assumptions, and he faced the sort of opposition that had no qualms with beating and shooting protesters, and could not be voted out of office.

But you are a College Student. A Revolutionary. You don't have time for piddling little realities.

[This message has been edited by Sine Nomen (edited January 13, 2004).]

There is nothing more ironic than complaining about your freedoms taken away.

And I know that Sine chewed at you this already, but...



Dictators don't make proposals to be considered by elected representatives. They dictate.

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To myself I surrender to the one I'll never please.
But I still try to run on.
You know I still try to run on. But it's all or none.

Eddie Vedder


[This message has been edited by Eversor (edited January 13, 2004).]

Just enjoy the fact that you live in a country whee you can complain about anything you want. There are plenty of countries that have you shot for what's been posted on this thread

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Yes.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

[This message has been edited by Emon (edited January 13, 2004).]

Sine son; Are you siding with the MAN?

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A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops.
On my desk I have a workstation...

And you'll find people complaining and doing something about it. Like Schming wants to do.

Just doing his job... just doing his job.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.

Ok, let me clarify a bit here, now that I've had more time to think of an appropriate course of action regarding the news of ...Monday?

I'm no longer trying to set up a demonstration, although I think it would attract the most attention, it's just not appropriate with this level of abuse of power.

I'm thinking more along the lines of maybe fliers, or speaking to people on the street, much like a political campaign, door to door stuff, or a poll like in a mall or other very public place, asking questions about how the person values privacy and other basic freedoms. Need to set down decent questions, and have a generic letter to a representative or a petition to send to Washington, signed by the person if they agree that this is an infringement on privacy and other stuff that's been said on this thread.

In no way will I mention Bush, or the TSA, just the databases and infringements on privacy.

I should probably hook up with a privacy advocacy group, which would actually be the best course of action.

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<< start the revolution >>

[This message has been edited by Schming (edited January 14, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Schming (edited January 14, 2004).]

Oh, so just saying that people have done worse things in the past makes it alright? Precedent does not impart correctness. Have you no sense of progression? Should we not strive to make things 'better' as opposed to the same or 'not as bad'?

Well I can't speak for the others, but if you need any help, I am more than willing to give it. And I'm sure many of your Massassian compatriots are behind you as well.

I thought being able to say that people have done worser things in the past was in fact stating (in so many words) that we had progressed. I am confused. Have we gotten better or not? Make up your minds.

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A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops.
On my desk I have a workstation...

I'm not saying that Gris, all i'm saying is that it's absurd and unapologetically ignorant to claim that Bush is evil of an extent and commision never before seen by God and man, as seems to be a popular opinion.

I think that these measures may be a bit out of proportion or the like, but i'm certainly not going to claim that had Bush not done them someone else would have. Look at all the stuff that so many people are furious at Bush for, and then realise that a lot of that is either hold-overs from Clinton or things that Clinton did exactly the same, and i didn't see Democrats howling about those policies or actions or whatever then.

You want progressive, this /is/ progressive. Everything moving to comprehensive database systems is almost unilaterally envisioned as the future of administration and organisation. Agreeing or disagreeing with it is somewhat irrelevant at best and just as likely to get you branded a 'luddite' by 'progressives'.

Do i think they're necessarily going about it quite right, not as such, if theyre going to adopt that sort of system they should damn well be id'ing everyone, we've had our share of American and/or white terrorists in the past. And honestly it's not as thuogh passengar manifests of airlines haven't been available for investigations or the like for years already.

Do i think it's wrong for enforcement agencies to have access to a national databsse of driver's license and infractions and such.. no not particularly, if someone has a record for consistent drunken reckless endangerment, i want them to be tagged for that even when theyre in another state y'know.

Basically /everyone/ is collecting all sorts of information abuot everyone. There's a case in thecourts or soon to be at least, around here, abuot banning supermarkets from using shopoper discount cards on the basis that they ostensibly sell the personal information you give them while signing up, and inflate prices to give you a 'discount'.

Then you've got your national voter registry, and beyond that.. look the draft bureau; let's talk abuot mandatory database registration and inclusion here shall we. Then as has been mentioned very appropriately earlier, there's passports. I don't necessarily feel any better abuot having all my information and picture in another massive national registry for that, but unless you plan to stay in this country your whole life you have to get that done [how's /that/ for irony, for those who wish to go to europeor the moon or whatever if the ever so very evil and malicious Bush gets elected again eh]. I was personally more than a little reticent to get my passport renewed [last time used it was a trip to germany like 5y ago], but eventually went and did it against my better judgement and so now have a passport where i look like an IRA terrorist trying to pass as a Berkeley activist, but yannow.

Basically as long as there's computers there's gonna be databases, and is the wont of people with technology, theyre gonna keep wanting to find new and different and more complicated ways of using it; again may i reference the rather more likely oncoming of Brave New World vs 1984.

Yes of course there's rampant chance for abuse of the system or whatever, but that follows for every human system ever created. Sew. I hate to end with a cliche, but i think that generally this falls under the heading of: "The only ones who need fear the law, are those who are breaking it."

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
Applecore scowled. "What does that mean, 'real'? Amn't I real, you? If you cut me, do I not bleed? If you piss me off, will I not kick you up the arse?" -War of the Flowers
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

How exactly is your privacy being infringed? The government isn't gaining any more information than they already have, unless you're strictly looking at its effect on foreign denizens. In that case, the US should damn well have the right to scruntinize those who visit our country. Foreigners are guests to our country, and should be treated as such, but one cannot be a guest unless they are fully trusted. How can you invite someone you don't trust to your home? Similarly, why would we invite foreigners we don't trust into our country?

I found it kind of ironic that you'd rather have a gun so you can shoot every one. Liberals are usually the first to try to ban guns, mainly for the "safety" of the people. Oddly enough, stricter security at airports would be a much better contribution to the safety of the American people than taking guns away from law-abiding citizens.

By the way, I <3 Sine.

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[This message has been edited. Deal with it.]

[This message has been edited by Malus (edited January 14, 2004).]

For some reason i have this inavoidable compulsion to post these gems:
http://www.boasas.com/?c=313
http://www.boasas.com/?c=320

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
Applecore scowled. "What does that mean, 'real'? Amn't I real, you? If you cut me, do I not bleed? If you piss me off, will I not kick you up the arse?" -War of the Flowers
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');