Wookie, I'm afraid I don't see how your strawman relates to this discussion.

Free speech can be controlled in a limited capacity in its time, place, and manner, but not its content: either the entire public is kept in "free speech zones" or everyone is allowed to line the sidewalk. This separation based on political ideology is therefore a clear violation of Constitutionally-guaranteed rights. I'm surprised someone who pays so much lip service to traditional conservative values would be so accepting of something so fundamentally wrong.

Avenger: Actually, free speech zones around the President are new to this administration. I'm sorry, but your standard response of "everyone does it, so it doesn't really matter" doesn't cut it.

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited January 18, 2004).]

Not all are focused on gaining power. Now, I'm not saying that someone spends millions of dollars on a campaign simply out of a want to server the good of the people, but to make a blanket statement of "all politicans are hungry for power" paints them all as megalomaniacal radicals.

Maybe I dislike Ashcroft intensely because he's from my state. I'm embarassed by that. It's also a popular theory that the reason he didn't complain about losing to the late Mel Carnahan is because he was promised this position in exchange to keep quiet. It just rings too much of Rutherford B. Hayes' immoral inauguration.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

Pff. "16.7 million colours can't be wrong"?

Okay, that made no sense, and neither is this. Probably.

From what I've read, or watched, or seen, or heard, it seems to me Bush is a resource-controlling b******, one to get world control if a little subtley (splelling?). I know I wouldn't want to live in a country where exclusion dependant on ideas seems to be that blatant, yet I probably wouldn't do anything but complain, or possibly not vote. I mean, secluding people for having an opinion? Is this turning into a macrocosm of the internet?

Three final points. 1 - I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I don't live in America, nor have I been there. 2 - All my information is what I've concluded from what I've read. I may have missed the 320" screen, but I stand by my opinions. 3 - These sorts of things influenced my choice of ending in Deus Ex.

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Yeah, but you know what? This one, this one right here, this was my dream, my wish, and it didn't come true. So I'm takin' it back. I'm takin' 'em all back.

Just read the article, I only have one thing to say:

WHAT THE ****?! WHY? WHY MUST PEOPLE BE SO ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES?!? THIS ****ING DISGUSTS ME! GOD FORBID I SHOULD BE ABLE TO SPEAK MY MIND AND HAVE ALL BUT THE INTENDED HEAR IT!

Pretty asteriks, I feel better now.

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-Blessed Be-
A solid challenge will bring forth your finest abilities.
DBZ: The Destruction is Real

[This message has been edited by Hell Raiser (edited January 18, 2004).]

...so if terrorists hold pro-Bush signs, they'll be allowed near the President?

Sounds like a secure system.

[Edit: Hmmm... I see that the article covers that issue farther down.]

[This message has been edited by Wuss (edited January 18, 2004).]

That's cool. btw, I'm not anti-Bush.

who said that?

Because I don't think it is reasonable.

Do not use "We". You are neither Bush, nor part of his cabinet, nor part of the Senate.

The 4th being the media

I seriously hope you are not trying to imply that Bush is evil. You may disagree with him, but to classify him as evil is unreasonable.

*raises his arm in the air* Heil Richard Hogland!

Prohecies? Please, this guy just pulled some crap out of his ***. I think he's still bitter that the soviets lost the cold war.

I wouldn't say brainwashing. I'd say more along the lines of them just thinking they know everything about politics and about what is going on. I don't agree with what Bush is doing here, but I'm not flaming him or anything. btw, I agree with you.

Now there is a smart person. They have an opinion on Bush, but they also know they aren't scholars of world politics etc.

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I am the god of dating! You will respect my authoritah!

Avenger: People with pro-Bush signs are allowed in areas people with anti-Bush signs are not. This is a violation of the First Amendment because it discriminates based on content. It's simple.

And yes, the right to peacefully assemble implies the right not to be stuck somewhere where no one can see or hear you. It's called public property for a reason, you know.

A) Please, tell us this: what are the consequences of holding up an anti-Bush sign, and give us an instance when someone expected to be free from the consequences of their speech.

(If you're going to say the consequence of holding up an anti-Bush sign is being herded half a mile away like cattle, spare us the run-around. The whole point is that that *shouldn't* happen).

B) How does holding up an anti-Bush sign impede security? Please, give us a specific example. After all, you claimed that it does.

C) You claim the protestors were more than capable of holding their protest in an area that wouldn't require them to be herded to a "free speech zone." I see a number of things wrong with this mentality:

1) What's the point of a protest if no one hears you? In some instances the media were not even allowed in the free speech zone. Why not then call it an "oppressed by a tyrant" zone?

2) I'm not sure if you've noticed (I don't think so), but the whole point of this discussion is that the practice of having "free speech zones" is an abomination, and I'm sure that 99% of the protestors would think likewise..

Why should protestors of Bush cede to a Bush policy that takes away their own rights? After all, that is what you suggested they should do. Your logic is just confounding.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

George W. Bush is just a President. He has never done anything special in his life. We will have a new President sooner or later, and then you can berate him as a Nazi or a Commie.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

I understand that you find my logic confounding just as I do yours. Nothing guarantees anyone the right to say whatever they want where ever they want and not have consequences to deal with. I guess in this case if you decide you want to exercise your freedom of speech in an area which is deemed to be distracting from the security of the president then you must deal with being required to move. Thankfully our constitution does protect the rights of freedom of speech otherwise you might see the whole thing shut down such as in other countries throughout the world.

I also find it ammusing that many of you who may very well mock anyone who references a FoxNews article flock so energetically to such a right wing group when they criticize the president. Interesting. I never realized just how conservative many of you were.

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former TACC outcast

Have you ever watched the news during the last three years?



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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but at his inaurual drive to the whitehouse was his car not pelted by angry protestors with cabbages and tomatoes and similar sorts of things.. that seems like a reasonable reason to keep anti-bush people at a safe distance..

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
Applecore scowled. "What does that mean, 'real'? Amn't I real, you? If you cut me, do I not bleed? If you piss me off, will I not kick you up the arse?" -War of the Flowers
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

By nothing special, I meant nothing that wouldn't be expected of his office. There's more than a slight difference between what he's done and what great people, good or bad, have done throughout history.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

Wookie: Do you honestly think limiting anti-Bush protesters to free speech zones while allowing pro-Bush demonstrators to line the President's routes is legally or ethically valid? You just claimed that anti-Bush signs interfere with "the security of our nation's leader". How?

While no one has an absolute right to be heard, everyone has an equal right to use public property to agitate for their cause of choice. Free speech zones are indefensible content-based restrictions of First Amendment freedoms.

Dormouse: You're wrong, until you can show that you're right.

Who said I was criticizing conservatives? I was criticizing the government as a whole.

I find it sad that you believe that this isn't destructive to securing the rights of the governed.



Correct. But remember that all branches are in check and balance with each other. Thus, the presented evidence that the 5th branch "checks and balances" the 4th. Actually, the 5th pratically runs the country as there is little "check and balance" going on against them.



I would be a fool to imply that. Everyone knows that Bush is just a pupet for his administration. This famous Edumund Burke quote was once again directed to the government as a whole (most the "5th" branch).



Thanks for being a rational and intelligent person. Capable of holding a civilized discussion.



We could easily say all prophices are pulled out of people's "*** ", because the are. Do you really think Martain Luther King had a dream? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. The point is Blacks might not have Civil Rights today if he hadn't given them common ground on an issue to be passionate about. Something that would give them hope for a brighter tomorrow. He did so and his "dream" (prophacy) was fulfilled. In this case, my comment was directed towards a need for a change in governmental procedures. There are flaws and weaknesses in the governemnt (and most all other governments in the world) that allow for exploits and corruption to manifest. There has been a serious increase of such since the U.S. Governments conception 225+ yrs ago. Though I fear there is little that can be done about it and we may very well see the future in the way I described. The point I'm getting at is that the future is in our hands. What we decide to do with it will effect many generations there after. Do we take a stand or do we wait to see if it resloves itself?



Would you mind explaining what "world politics" are or where you referring to Democracy in general?

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Try not, do; or do not.

I don't necessarilly believe that anti-Bush signs represent a hazzard to his security. But if those responsible for his security do then I can live with that. I would say that those that are pro-Bush should be subject to the same kind of treatment and I'm not sure that they aren't. The people that you often see in the actual rally, whether they be supporters or not, are those that have undergone a security screening so it is very possible that the view that only anti-Bush people are subject to "free speech zones" is a bit slanted.

Friend14, I don't feel that this is destructive because in no way has their speech been abridged. Simply the proximity that they are allowed to get to the president. They are more than free to express their opinions.


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former TACC outcast

Youre wrong that i'm wrong 'til you prove that youre right about my not being right..



http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/20/inaugural.parade/


http://www.youthradio.org/politics/010129_inaugprotest.shtml

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
Applecore scowled. "What does that mean, 'real'? Amn't I real, you? If you cut me, do I not bleed? If you piss me off, will I not kick you up the arse?" -War of the Flowers
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

I have an explanation for all this that no one so far has offered. The fact that Bush is not the world's best public speaker has been observed to death by the media. What if the sight and sounds of a group of protesters makes him lose his train of thought (teleprompters are provided for only the most televised appearances, after all)? This would fit with almost all (if not all) his on-stage mannerisms so far.

Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor and Executive Orders, though fiction, make this point much better than I can.

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Young men make wars, and the virtues of war are the virtues of young men: courage and hope for the future. Then old men make the peace, and the vices of old men are the vices of peace: mistrust and caution. It must be so.
-Laurence of Arabia

You obviously didn't get the satire in that comment. Do you know who that guy is?

all politics

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I am the god of dating! You will respect my authoritah!

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill

Outstanding suggestion Yen, not inconceivable.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
Applecore scowled. "What does that mean, 'real'? Amn't I real, you? If you cut me, do I not bleed? If you piss me off, will I not kick you up the arse?" -War of the Flowers
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

If that were the case then they should be fair and not allow anyone with signs in. Pro-bush or not.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

It's only a violation in your eyes. Keep in mind, you nor anyone else here is incharge of interpreting the constitution. If the Supreme Court agrees with you, so be it, it's unconstitutional. However, if they disagree, it is not a violation.

[This message has been edited by Morfildor (edited January 18, 2004).]

Flexor: Given the media's over-attention to his assorted quirks, it would be encouraging to see supporters when he needs to give a speech, possibly producing a better performance. And of course the SS can't give this as a reason for their actions, so they give the reason for their existence: protect the President.

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Young men make wars, and the virtues of war are the virtues of young men: courage and hope for the future. Then old men make the peace, and the vices of old men are the vices of peace: mistrust and caution. It must be so.
-Laurence of Arabia

I've noticed that he is an excellent speaker when he is being more candid, less rehearsed and more relaxed. Even when he is being criticized it seems pretty petty.

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former TACC outcast

There's another issue that people aren't considering. If people with opposite views or a distaste for a political figure are allowed to intermingle with those with opposite views, the potential for rioting and fighting will be greatly increased. The last thing the secret service wants is a riot in front of the president while he's speaking in public.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Dor: You made the positive claim, so you're wrong by default. Ha. Oh, and content-based restrictions are still illegitimate, regardless of the actions of those who may or may not share a political ideology. If there were worries about the President's safety, then removing all the demonstrators would be the only legal action.

Morfildor: If the government is imposing restrictions on certain people because of the content of their speech, then they are violating the law. And no, it isn't in dispute. It's in any high school government book for crying out loud. For the Supreme Court to change their minds would be equivalent to suddenly deciding that the whole "seperate is not equal" thing was a mistake: it's not going to happen, thank God.

Good God, people. We should eliminate anti-Bush signs from the President's world because otherwise he can't complete sentences? We should isolate him from the public that is demanding accountability for his actions so he doesn't sound like a complete idiot?

Avenger: People consider it all the time when the KKK holds rallies. Generally the space is divided in half by a physical barrier so the demonstrators and counterdemonstrators don't get into it. In the case of presidential parades, the street would be a natural divider. Not, say, several blocks and a chain-link fence.

[edit]Yeah, assuming it was held on private property.

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited January 18, 2004).]

Or you make them "private" speeches and only allow those you want in. That'd be perfectly legal.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

No kidding Ober.

Still, confining free speech to little zones - communism, here we come!

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Duel Zero : Released the beta. Probably the end of it. Not to worry though, I'm working on Randsaber, which is a lot better.

You'd make a great politicain, Wookie. You managed to talk about stuff without answering a single of my questions, leaving me confused and wondering if we're in agreement or not.

Congratulations.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

Maybe I'm a tad late in replying to this, but, oh, well.

When I say "we," I speak for the majority of Missouri. The same majority that voted against Ashcroft, trying to keep him out of office. The same majority that recognized that he does not belong in office, be it at a state or national level. We, the majority, did not believe that Ashcroft belongs in the government, and that's becomingly painfully obvious to many people now.

When I said "we," I wasn't speaking for any branch of government. I was speaking for the majority, to whom it felt like a slap in the face that, after we elected a dead man into office, the very man we opposed was hand-picked to be the Attorney General of our country.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

Every high school book teaches you that speech has it's limits. Like I said, leave it to those that are suppose to interpret these things.

hahaha.

My god, there are people around the world fighting and dying to have the right for free speech, and here you are trying to get rid of it.